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John Edwards of Norwich,scumble pine case?

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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I have just refurbished this scumble mahogany finished pine cased clock. Movement, John Edwards of Norwich, George third period. The case a rare survival from the unwelcome attention of woodworm and the morons who caustic tank stripped so many of these. The faux mahogany is a lovely colour. The movement and dial clearly began life together I have doubts about the case. John Edwards clocks made in an important provincial city that I have seen are all in hardwood cases. So maybe a marriage? no matter fine proportions looks very well. The movement could benefit from a comprehensive 'horological' overhaul ,I am not equiped for that and it works well so will rest content with what I can afford :)

edwards norwich full.JPG edwards norwich movement front.JPG Edwards norwich dial.JPG
 

bwclock

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Feb 17, 2015
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I have just refurbished this scumble mahogany finished pine cased clock. Movement, John Edwards of Norwich, George third period. The case a rare survival from the unwelcome attention of woodworm and the morons who caustic tank stripped so many of these. The faux mahogany is a lovely colour. The movement and dial clearly began life together I have doubts about the case. John Edwards clocks made in an important provincial city that I have seen are all in hardwood cases. So maybe a marriage? no matter fine proportions looks very well. The movement could benefit from a comprehensive 'horological' overhaul ,I am not equiped for that and it works well so will rest content with what I can afford :)

View attachment 689951 View attachment 689952 View attachment 689953
Lovely clock, nice clean lines, great finish. It is interesting that the dial has no seconds bit nor calendar function. I wonder if longcase clocks in pine cases with faux finishes were typically fitted with movements without these two features, as a cost savings. Thank you for posting the photos. Also, I was not aware of the incredible variety of cases in Swedish wall clocks.
Bruce
 

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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Picture of the back of the dial and one of some of the underappreciated Swedish carved gilded limewood clocks some made in the Hasslebald factory,some with French some with German some with Swedish movements and even one with an english Enfield movement;the better ones with adjustable pallets. I live 60 miles south of Norwich,family name Edwards though John Edwards was not related to the family though my mothers family Newby were all from Norfolk so I had to buy it

DSC02044 (1).JPG DSC02279.JPG
 

novicetimekeeper

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Thank you. As you say, the dial and movement always seem to have been together. Is there any sign that the position of a seatboard on the side cheeks of the case has altered? 30 hour and 8 day clocks sit at different heights so that is one way to check the case. If there is no alteration then this case has always been 8 day why not your 8 day?
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Nov 26, 2009
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I have just refurbished this scumble mahogany finished pine cased clock. Movement, John Edwards of Norwich, George third period. The case a rare survival from the unwelcome attention of woodworm and the morons who caustic tank stripped so many of these. The faux mahogany is a lovely colour. The movement and dial clearly began life together I have doubts about the case. John Edwards clocks made in an important provincial city that I have seen are all in hardwood cases. So maybe a marriage? no matter fine proportions looks very well. The movement could benefit from a comprehensive 'horological' overhaul ,I am not equiped for that and it works well so will rest content with what I can afford :)

View attachment 689951 View attachment 689952 View attachment 689953
Nice clock.

Interesting contrast. Seems quite comfortable with its flashing neighbors (nice collection of those, by the way).

How so very refreshing to hear your opinion of those that would have stripped the case.

Over here, we would say "grain painted" or "faux grained" or something like that. Love the term "scrumble".

RM
 

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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Thank you. As you say, the dial and movement always seem to have been together. Is there any sign that the position of a seatboard on the side cheeks of the case has altered? 30 hour and 8 day clocks sit at different heights so that is one way to check the case. If there is no alteration then this case has always been 8 day why not your 8 day?
The clock has new oak movement support board this is often the case as seat boards crack,fail under the weight sometimes saturated with oil after much time. I hope someone my side or the Atlantic will know something of this prolific maker and if he made 'budget clocks' seems doubtful given other clocks I have seen by the maker;no matter it looks well :)
 

novicetimekeeper

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The difference in thickness of the two seatboards is unlikely to equal the difference between an 8 day and a thirty hour so it is still worth looking closely at the side cheeks.

As to whether or not he made budget clock, all clocks at this time were made to order, so it would be a discussion with the client as to what they would and would not pay for.
 

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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I have a Salfer of Vienna spring drive grande sonnerie week running wall clock the seat board is only 1cm thick I am surprised it carries the heavy movement! I have seen many English longcase clocks over fifty years but could not decide about this one, probably correct made to the budget of the client or maybe a marriage;seatboards so often replaced as are sometimes the side supports. There is in Christchurch mansion, Ipswich, Suffolk a 'medieval' gateleg table which was made by a neighbour of mine who managed Reprodux reproduction furniture company :)
 

novicetimekeeper

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The side cheeks are mostly a continuation of the side boards of the carcase, some provincial makers used a different approach.
 

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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I have some victorian softwood floorboards 18mm (same thickness as the clockcase) if I make a movement support board from some of this it will put the dial in exactly the correct position,the replacement oak board is quite thin . I am thinking on balance the clock is a marriage all the other clocks by this maker I have seen are in hardwood,oak walnut or mahogany. Side boards are continuous on this clock.
 

Mike Phelan

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Over here, we would say "grain painted" or "faux grained" or something like that. Love the term "scrumble".

RM
In UK, Scrumble is a cat or dog food! Scumble is the stuff you apply onto a lighter base coat on wood, and then do some faux graining using a special tool, wire brush or old paintbrush. Done it many times on items in the house.
 

chorisia

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Scumble seems less correct than faux grained as scumble is an oil painting term .They used to throw faux painted pine furniture into tanks of caustic soda solution in the UK for the then knotty pine fashion :-(. It did not do the furniture much good, terminal for woodworm? Fortunately this clock case did not suffer such ignominous treatment. What they did with the lead paint sludge when cleaning the tank does not bear thinking about!
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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In UK, Scrumble is a cat or dog food! Scumble is the stuff you apply onto a lighter base coat on wood, and then do some faux graining using a special tool, wire brush or old paintbrush. Done it many times on items in the house.
Thanks! That’s interesting.

Also used here were such things as feathers to work the still wet paint. Also popular in the 19th century was smoke graining using the flame from a lamp or candle.

There were also available graining kits which contained metal combs used for graining.

Scumble seems less correct than faux grained as scumble is an oil painting term .They used to throw faux painted pine furniture into tanks of caustic soda solution in the UK for the then knotty pine fashion :-(. It did not do the furniture much good, terminal for woodworm? Fortunately this clock case did not suffer such ignominous treatment. What they did with the lead paint sludge when cleaning the tank does not bear thinking about!
Ugh. The knotty pine look!! Much painted furniture was skinned to death to feed that ravenous appetite. All of that stuff is now worthless.

Dealers here would import skinned furniture by the container load from UK and other parts of Europe. Many pieces were Frankenfurniture, made from salvageable parts of furniture, demolished homes, etc. Hot with interior decorators. Sold for big $$. Now, who cares.

RM
 

chorisia

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In the 1970's containers full of rubbish furniture were shipped from UK to USA. I used to sell clocks to Americans at the big air bases in Suffolk one told me that around bases in America many ugly fat north of England 30 hour victorian longcase clocks were for sale with few buyers, taken back in error? For sure not wanted in the UK. Prices for longcase clocks have dropped so much, in the UK people do not have space for them though smaller repro westminsters in light wood cases generate interest particularly triple chime moonphase, the German movements require work after a couple of decades. I always add graphite to clock oil for these clocks then there is a smooth hard residue for them to run on when almost inevitably they are not oiled! There is something to be said for overpowered open spring American and Korean clocks with lantern pinions they grind on for decades :)
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Nov 26, 2009
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In the 1970's containers full of rubbish furniture were shipped from UK to USA. I used to sell clocks to Americans at the big air bases in Suffolk one told me that around bases in America many ugly fat north of England 30 hour victorian longcase clocks were for sale with few buyers, taken back in error? For sure not wanted in the UK. Prices for longcase clocks have dropped so much, in the UK people do not have space for them though smaller repro westminsters in light wood cases generate interest particularly triple chime moonphase, the German movements require work after a couple of decades. I always add graphite to clock oil for these clocks then there is a smooth hard residue for them to run on when almost inevitably they are not oiled! There is something to be said for overpowered open spring American and Korean clocks with lantern pinions they grind on for decades :)
Those so called “fatties” still surface here.

It’s amazing how overpowered some American factory clocks are. I had one with a filthy movement with empty spider exoskeletons & cobwebs. I had to prevent it from running!

RM
 

chorisia

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Oct 13, 2021
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Korean clocks tend to be scorned which I do not think is deserved some of the case work is hardwood and very attractive. The 'fatties' are often well made and have crossbanded inlaid cases its the proportions that are of putting . I had the idea of adding graphite to clock oil from the excellent abbeyclocks .com website,makes sense, his dissertation on clock weights well worth aread as well
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Nov 26, 2009
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Korean clocks tend to be scorned which I do not think is deserved some of the case work is hardwood and very attractive. The 'fatties' are often well made and have crossbanded inlaid cases its the proportions that are of putting . I had the idea of adding graphite to clock oil from the excellent abbeyclocks .com website,makes sense, his dissertation on clock weights well worth aread as well
I do agree to an extent about the case work on some of the “fatties”. I have seen some cases with incredible & over the top use of different veneers, inlay, turnings and so on. They can have pretty dials with well painted spandrels. Unfortunately, for me, it usually adds up to a mishmash of Victorian excess.

The Korean stuff. All yours.

RM
 

Jim DuBois

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At the risk of incurring the wrath of some members, in my interests, I find no room for most tallclocks made after about 1830, be they American, English, Scottish, or Irish. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between but do include true regulators and some hallclocks. But, all in all, the Victorian influences killed many clock forms. Fatties, can we really say that today? are almost always a waste of wood and metals. By the time turned feet became ever so popular in this country, form, fit, and function all fell to the wayside, and case and dial enhancements/elaborations prevailed and not to the betterment of clocks IMO. We lost all semblance of following centuries-old design parameters seen in published forms, as well as using Greek and Roman design geometry in clock cases. Wider is not necessarily better, fancier paint on a wider dial does not really compete with the wonderful brass dial work done by clockmakers/engravers over the last several centuries, and more inlay of mahogany with oak on a widebody is not a good choice, ever, IMO. Of course, casemakers and clock companies followed public demand. So, nobody to blame but our ancestors for an ever declining sense of good taste?
 

jmclaugh

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I'm not a fan of the later chunkier longcases but I guess it is all down to taste. I do think the Victorian era rather gets lumped together as a single period of large and over elaborate styles yet if you look at what was produced from 1837 -1900 it was far more varied.
 

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