John Cross movement with a type of Penningtom Balance Wheel.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Jan 5, 2018.

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  1. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #51 Allan C. Purcell, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    Hi Graham. I was told by an old watchmaker years ago, that the white screws on my Hornby 24333 were platinum.I believe there was no white gold then?

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I'm pretty sure that's 'RE'. Cap makers are very hard to assign, especially since so few caps were marked at all.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

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    #53 John Matthews, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    Sorry Ray, no luck the only cap makers I have in my list and for around 1830, with first name starting with R, are RB & RW. So if it is RK or RE, it will be one of the many, many for which I have not been able to find any documentation. I am going to see if I can expand my list of names from the trade directories if I find any candidates i will let you know. I have enhanced it as far as I can - I would still not like to say what the letters are ...

    John

    Enhanced initials.JPG
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Thanks John. Regards Ray
     
  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, at the moment I am like a Woman (or Man; I don't want to appear to be sexist) in a Shoe Shop; High Heels or Medium Heels? 1830's Pair Case or an ordinary Case. Then again it depends on what I have! Regards Ray
     
  6. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    As far as I can discover white gold wasn't introduced until around the end of the 19th century, and wasn't commercially available until the 1920s, so the screws in your Hornby would not have been white gold.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

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  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    You said that you believe there was no white gold then, and I replied that white gold was an innovation of the end of the century, thus I agreed with your proposal. I'm not clear what else there is to say?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Graham- I SAID THE SCREWS WERE MADE OF PLATINUM. I SUJESTED THERE WAS NO WHITE GOLD THEN MEANING THEY COULD NOT HAVE USED WHITE GOLD.
    YOU DID ASK WHAT THE SCREWS WERE OR COULD BE MADE OFF I TRIED TO HELP YOU.

    Allan.
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    oops, your caps lock got stuck. Are these balance screws? Platinum was used for those I believe

    Google platinum screws pocket watch there is a nice McCabe example.
     
  11. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Nick-please read posts 48 and 51.Graham had a problem with them.
     
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    I was agreeing with you by mentioning when white gold was introduced, so I don't see why you should be resorting to uppercase in this way. I'm sorry if my words have caused offence, which I can assure you was far from my intention.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham-no offence taken.it´s like Nick said.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  14. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Graham, just for future referance I quote from the AJU Antique Jewelry University.
    " White gold (university/Gold/) was invented in the 19th.century where it was alloyed with palladium. It became commercially available as of 1912 in Pforzheim in Germany., and gained popularity in the mid-1920´s.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I finally received the second John Cross movement Serial Number 8848 and there is not much wrong with it. It would not wind and I found that a Dial Pin was wedged under the Fusee Cone; It has both Balance Pivots, but the Balance Cock Jewel is shattered. Not a lot to fix. Regards Ray

    11.jpg
     
  16. Allan C. Purcell

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    Is the above a Massey Ray- Allan.
     
  17. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Allan; it is a Table Roller. Regards Ray

    14.jpg
     
  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Interesting that the balance has poising screws and yet it's clearly been poised by filing the underside of the rim, just like a plain balance.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  19. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Looks like dirt to me Graham? Regards, Allan.
     
  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Allen, there is no dirt on the inside of the Balance Wheel; it has been filed. It did run nice in the Face Down position; then I found the shattered Balance Cock Jewel. Any ideas when this movement was made? Regards Ray
     
  21. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Thanks for that Ray-Strange how some people mess with these watches. As to date it´s the old story of to many John Crosses.
    At least three working in London around the same time, and there is no address on your movement. One was in Crosshall Street Liverpool too.
    Though yours looks like a London watch. The JC in London (Charterhouse Square) was working from 1819-55.The other two no address
    1802-40, the other 1827 only. Why there is patent on the cock I don´t know, because it has an STR. I don´t think before 1821-22. The thing is you have
    I believe, three of these JC watches- have a good look at each one, you may find something to indicate they are all by one maker. In fact the three JC´s
    in Loomes could all be the same man.Best Allan.
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Allan,

    It could be there because it was converted from a Massey; this was happening from fairly early dates, and it's very difficult to detect it as a conversion if it was done competently. Your estimated dates seem quite reasonable to me.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    I agree Graham- If I know Ray he has all three layout ready for a reply. A nice look between the plates could tell us a lot more. Best Allan.
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, would there be any real advantages to convert from a Massey to a Table Roller? My Massey movements keep very good time! Regards Ray
     
  25. John Matthews

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    Hi Graham,

    I had it in mind that after Massey had used it on some of his watches, 'Patent' was not infrequently engraved on watches as a ploy to imply some distinct 'patented feature', when no such feature ever existed. Certainly, a quick check through my limited collection, I would say the majority of my Massey's don't have 'Patent' and I have single rollers, that I do not believe have been converted, that do. So seeing it on the Cross, it didn't come as a surprise that it was a single roller. Am I mistaken?

    John
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    No, i don't think you're mistaken. Like many other features of English watches the presence or otherwise of 'Patent' on the balance cock shouldn't be taken as evidence of a Massey connection, but many of his escapements do carry that word, so it should at least be considered as a possibility, though balanced by the equal possibility that it's just a piece of marketing on an English lever.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, after much looking I found a pair of Jewels to fit the Balance Cock; it has gone from Ruby to Diamond; so an upgrade and it is running nicely. Regards Ray

    20180214_112125.jpg
     
  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I will give you people something to have a bit of a chuckle about; I tend to give Pocket Watches and movements Anthropomorphic attributes. When I first start up a movement after major or minor Surgery, I liken it to when I was in the Rehabilitation Ward in Hospital after Major Surgery and like the Nurses when they gave me encouragement to try harder I do the same to a struggling movement that is slowly beating faster, and I talk to it; come on keep going etc. Your strange Mate Ray
     
  29. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Ray that´s quite normal-the problems start when thy say thank you. Keep up the good work, and remamber this board would be boreing without you. Best Allan.
     
  30. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Allan, "They do They do" Regards Ray
     

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