John Cross movement with a type of Penningtom Balance Wheel.

Omexa

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Hi all, I snuck up on this movement and I got it for what I wanted to pay. It has a type of Pennington Balance variation? Hopefully there are more knowledgeable people out there who know more about this movement. 1. What was its intended use; maybe a Deck Watch? 2. I have not seen many like it and I am wondering what the Patent refers to; the Pennington Balance Wheel or the type of escapement? I am in your hands. A similar movement at: Jno CROSS, Charterhouse Sq, London. No 9848 - David Penney's Antique Watch Store There is another movement at Pieces of Time Archives. Regards Ray

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Omexa

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There is another movement at Pieces of Time Archives, with a similar Balance. Regards Ray

From Pieces of Time has been sold.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi Paul,

That's an interesting balance wheel! What's the idea of this design?
Contrary to what you might see in auctioneers' descriptions or some other sources, this Pennington 'T' balance was intended to hold the free arms of the balance securely whilst the timing or temperature screws were being adjusted. These early bimetallic balances were relatively fragile, and repairers were initially unfamiliar with them, so these affixes were intended to protect the balance during these adjustments. The holding screws were loosened again when the adjustments were completed. This specific type of affix was not intended as any sort of middle temperature error correction device.

Robert Pennington was the inventor of the screwed cut compensated balance in the form which was to become practically universal.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi Graham, I am sort of confused by this Chronometer Balance with sort of Pennington parts; the Screws are free at the Yellow Arrows. Regards Ray

© 2017 Trustees of the British Museum.jpg
 

John Matthews

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Hi Ray as you probably know the picture you posted above is from the British Museum collection 'Pennington #426' and has what is called the 'YCC' type which Mercer describes as ' A three armed balance having two semicircular bimetallic affixes attached to the rim of the plain metal balance".

David Penney makes the same point as Graham, viz.

Despite what some authors and many auction houses continue to state, the 'L' portion of this balance (as with the earlier 'double T' balance) has nothing to do with middle temperature error and does not supply an auxiliary action. Rather, it was Pennington's method of protecting the free end of the bimetallic rim when the screws were either adjusted or moved - a tricky job with a screwdriver, especially at this early period when such balances were not well known.

Pennington's other design, the 'Screw' type was the forerunner of the modern balance which the comment doesn't apply to, but I'm uncertain whether the comment applies to the 'YCC' design. I'm sure Graham will give us the low down.

John
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

...but I'm uncertain whether the comment applies to the 'YCC' design. I'm sure Graham will give us the low down.
I don't believe that any of these variations with affixes were intended to correct any middle temperature errors. If you look at the quarter screws on a 'YCC' type, they're threaded in the inner, plain rim of the balance with clearance through the outer, bimetallic part. The clearances are such that it seems very unlikely that any of these screws would have any constraining effect on the bimetallic rims, even in extreme cold. I think it's also significant that the final development of the design abandoned all affixes completely.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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HI Graham,

Help me out here.

My understanding of the early attempts to resolve the MTE, such as by Molyneux & Poole, is that they used 'auxiliaries' to check the outward movement of the balance at low temperature. So looking at the diagram of the British Museum 'YCC' type, although the slots at the free-end of the bimetallic outer, appear to be sufficiently large to allow increases in "length", the outward expansion of the diameter of the balance, must surely depend upon the adjustment of the screws passing through the slot. If these two screws were tightened they could limit the expansion of the balance diameter at low temperature - is this not the same as the way the auxiliaries were designed to work? I am not saying that this was an effective solution to the MTE, but how do we know that Pennington wasn't experimenting with this balance to try and resolve/understand the MTE?

I can see that with this balance design having the separate inner steel balance to which the outer bimetallic balance is connected, rather than a simple balance arm, might be a complication, but I still think that if the screws could be adjusted to limit the expansion of the overall balance diameter at low temperature. Am I wrong?

John
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

...I can see that with this balance design having the separate inner steel balance to which the outer bimetallic balance is connected, rather than a simple balance arm, might be a complication, but I still think that if the screws could be adjusted to limit the expansion of the overall balance diameter at low temperature. Am I wrong?
Not necessarily, but if the screws at the ends of the affixes and also those in the middle, (together effectively the quarter screws), were adjusted to provide low temperature correction they couldn't be used for what I believe was their primary function. The screws at the quarter points would have been used to poise the balance and also to bring it to time, and if they were adjusted for that purpose it could well conflict with subsequent adjustments for correcting middle temperature error. The screws near the 'free' ends of the bimetallic arms were for temperature and have no connection with the affixes.

Any fittings connected with middle temperature error would necessarily be independent of the basic timing, poising and simple temperature features of a compensated balance.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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Graham - my thanks for your clarity ...

Any fittings connected with middle temperature error would necessarily be independent of the basic timing, poising and simple temperature features of a compensated balance.
So I assume that this means that in this particular case, the length of the quarter screws would have been selected to ensure that when the balance was 'in poise', there would remain sufficient clearance with the bimetallic rim to ensure no contact throughout the operational temperature range.

John
 

Omexa

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I think it's also significant that the final development of the design abandoned all affixes completely.
Hi, you would think that there would be lots of John Cross movements around; but I can only find two of them. Maybe as a Manufacturer they had sellers names on them? Photo shows affixes removed on later movement? Why? Regards Ray
John Cross, 15 Charterhouse Square, London, noted as a 'watch and clock wholesaler' in a trade directory of the period. This points to him being a real manufacturer and, judging by the fact that he was among the first to fit Pennington's screw balances in pocket watches, is likely to have had a close working relationship with this important firm of watch and chronometer manufacturers. “From David Penney’s Archives”
Comparison of 2 movements - Copy.jpg
 
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gmorse

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Hi Ray,

...Photo shows affixes removed on later movement? Why?
I don't think the example from David's archive was ever fitted with an affix like yours, although it's hard to be quite sure from the angle of the picture. The size of the cut in the rim on yours is far greater.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi, this post is bifurcated; the first part is; I wonder if my movement was made by Pennington for John Cross and sold by him; or maybe the Balance was installed by Pennington? The second part is, this just purchased rather dirty John Cross early movement with very basic Balance; it runs and stops. Regards Ray

Other retailers of Pennington

pocket movements include French (Royal

Exchange, London), William Haddock

(Bath), William Pickman (London), John

Cross (Charterhouse Square, London) and

Joseph Eden MacDowall (London). From: A.D. Stewart

Pennington of London: a brief history of

the family, the firm and their chronometers

Antiquarian Horology, Volume 34, No. 3 (September 2013), pp. 367-384
1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 6.jpg 8.jpg 9.jpg Comparison of movements.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi Ray,

I wonder if my movement was made by Pennington for John Cross and sold by him; or maybe the Balance was installed by Pennington?
The double 'T' balance seems to suggest that the balance wheel at least could have been made by Penningtons.

Regards,

Graham
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Ray-8848 is a cheap uncut balance-the other two are first class-sorry I cannot say who made them. I wonder if Pennington and Pendleton, maybe John Roger Arnold, Frodshans, or other
firms had Balences in stock for other finnishers?? I do know Barraud bought his baleneces fron John Arnold. Maybe Graham can help.

Best,

Allan
 

Omexa

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Hi Allan, what I like is the progression to more efficient Balances. I wonder when 8848 was made:???:
Hi Ray-8848 is a cheap uncut balance-the other two are first class-sorry I can't say who made them
Regards Ray
 

Omexa

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Hi, I just downloaded the Last Will of John Cross; the photo is the first part; it may as well be written in Swahili? I cleaned it up a bit in Photoshop. Regards Ray

John Cross Last Will.PNG
 
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Omexa

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Hi Graham, it is rather a long Will; that is just a bit. I am toying with using OCR software. I wonder if 42 refers to his age? Regards Ray
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Ray- not an easy read. the 42 is the ledger number. These old wills were kept on record in books or ledgers.When you have got it sorted send me a copy and will give it try,
I have a machine here that can enlarge it. Allan.
 

gmorse

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Hi Ray,

...I am toying with using OCR software...
There's a lot of noise in that image, and I wonder if OCR would cope with that, even with de-speckle at maximum, let alone the archaic handwriting, but at least it is in English.

Regards,

Graham
 

Omexa

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Hi Allan, I tried to email the PDF files to you and the email bounced back to me? Have you changed your email address? Regards Ray
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Ray I have printed them off. I can tell you on the first line he describes him self has watch manufacturer. Is there something relivent you are looking for??.
The photo-copies are a dissaster, the last two look as though I can do smething with. I will let you know when I have achived something.

Allan.
IMG_4375.JPG Part of page one.
 

Omexa

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Hi Allan, any help would be appreciated. So he is a Watch Manufacturer that is good. I was just trying to get a glimpse into his life and maybe learn more about him and his Watchmaking Business. Regards Ray
 

Allan C. Purcell

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The Probate of his will was read before three of his children. (Still working on their names). it took place in London 7th. March 1836. The witnesses to his will
were, James Hume Spry or Spiy, surgeon from 5 Charterhouse Square. Arther Brown Spry same place, and George Write12 Hatton Gardens Solicitor.

The rest is about what he left and to who, and if they died before they were 21 who then would get his share, and so and so, for the rest of the Will. If i do find anything like he left his business
to his uncle in Australia I will let you know.

Regards,

Allan.

PS: - The wife --- ----- Cross,John Cross the Son, and a daugter ----- Cross Spinster.
 
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Omexa

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Hi all, I am still waiting for this movement; so far 15 days since posted. It has disappeared into a Australia Post "Black Hole". Australia Post keep sending me surveys about what I think of their service; I reply "Sell the Camels for Meat", and send by Air or Road Transport. I am itching to see what kind of Escapement it has; I know it is a Lever of some sort. Regards Ray
 

Omexa

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Hi Allan, the last time I contacted "The College of Arms" at, Contact Us I have 2 Pocket Watches with Coats of Arms; one The 3rd Duke of Montrose and the Byrd Family of Westover. I will see what I can find out. Regards Ray

1.jpg Mss5.1.Sn237.1.Vol3_0299.jpg Mss5.1.Sn237.1.Vol3_0297.jpg
 

Omexa

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Hi Allan, I am a bit wary of the Coat of Arms on the Pocket Watch; it has been soldered on at a later date and is a bit rough around the perimeter. The Case is rather worn but the High Spots on the Coat of Arms are not very worn. Is it from the Ukraine or Bulgaria? I would tread carefully on this one. Regards Ray
 

MartyR

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Allan, I don't think that is a "coat of arms" at all - I believe it is a made-up one-off.

A true "Coat of Arms" has astonishly rigid rules enforced by the College of Heralds in Broitain and similar organisations in other European countries. It is made up of a large variety of carefully defined elements which are described in detail in a very old book, and as far as I know these have not been altered in several hundred years.

Your emblem seems to include a drum and cannons, and these are definitely not included in that book ;)
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Martin and Ray-it hit me later I had a copy of Burkes Landed Gentry and after reading some of the introduction, I realised you are both right.
Thats why I am no longer interested in the watch. Shame really, theres a Roskell in there but I could not make out the number, the owner says he will send the number
when he returns for his holidays. I will not be holding my breath.I am sorry he stuck that crest on the case, for it looks has if it could be the original case.

Thanks again,

Allan.
 

Omexa

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Hi, today is my Birthday and Australia Post have decided to give me a present in the Australia Post Lottery (Sarcasm Dripping). For some reason only known them (Australia Post) they often change the Tracking Number to something that is not the original Tracking Number. So I am going to the Post Office this morning to pick up something? I usually have about 7 to 10 items coming because I purchase things for friends who are not on eBay. I think-hope that it is one of the Cross movements. Regards Ray
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Don´t you think its time to put your clocks forward to GMT? Did you see the photograph on the two Richard Hornby file today- Est 1819.Allan
 

Omexa

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Hi, I picked up the movement and one thing is very good; the Balance Pivots are not broken; the Seller told me that they were. Regards Ray

Capture.PNG
 

Omexa

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Hi, I have now got the movement running very strongly in all positions. What I need to find now is the under Dial Wheels and a Dial like photo 8. It has a Fat Roller Jewel. Regards Ray

1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg 9.PNG
 

Omexa

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Hi all, I am up early and the Cross movement is still running strongly; so the search for Hour and Minute Wheels, Dial and maybe an age related Case begins. Regards Ray
 

gmorse

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Hi Ray,

I see that the balance appears to have been poised by filing the undersides of both the affixes, and also that the two screws nearest the front in the picture of the balance have had their tips flattened. I'm also wondering what the four screws holding the affixes are made of, because they don't appear to be gold.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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Hi Ray - I have tried to locate a possible cap maker - but I can offer no suggestions for RE - any chance of a clearer photograph?

If it was RB - then it may be Robert Bickerstaff who was active in Liverpool ~1830.

John
 

Omexa

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Hi Graham and John, the Balance is happily spinning back and forth at the moment I will try to work out what the Screws are made of when the movement stops. John, another photo of the Cap; it could be R K? Regards Ray

P1020618.JPG
 

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