JNo Percival unusual large Fusee with Coat of Arms on the Cuvette.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Sep 25, 2016.

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  1. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    20161021_144529_edit.jpg

    The red arrow is a case bolt, the blue one is the broken spring for the bolt, and the green one is the lever which opens the case bolt. The large screw on the end of it would have been acted on by a plunger of some sort in the missing outer case. The other lever at 5 o'clock is the fixed part of the holding mechanism, opposite the case bolt. These parts look well enough made, but seem relatively clumsy, and point to an elaborate re-case of some type. Allan's suggestion of an Oriental market connection is a possibility.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  2. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham and Allan, your input has been very helpful, but now instead of one problem I now have three. I like to Case my movements. All the extra levers etc. in these three Cases to me seem unnecessary. The Standard English setup works OK. I am going to follow up on Allan's suggestion about the Chinese Market I will search the net for something similar, there must be other Pocket Watches out there if I have three of this type of Case. If I can find a complete Pocket Watch with this sort of Case it will help a lot. Regards Ray John Percival Woolwich.jpg W E Smith Poultry.jpg William Anthony London.jpg
     
  3. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    #53 Allan C. Purcell, Oct 21, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Hi Ray,

    Did not want to give you gray hair just yet-try to contact Ian White he is a member of the AHS they will give you his e-mail address. In 2011 he wrote "English Clocks for the Eastern Markets"

    Watches are included though they don't show the inner cases. Hope this helps.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allen, "William Anthony was a maker for this market, and its possible Percival too.", you are right I found a couple of William Anthony Pocket Watches made for the Chinese market the Cases are really ornate and Solid Gold with inlaid Pearls and Jewels. The Case set up is the same style as the Percival. How someone could scrap Masterpieces like these Cases is beyond me. Regards Ray
     
  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Just off the top of my head, you should look up what happened in the forbidden Palaces in China jouring the so called boxer uprising. Looting by the European military saw many of the clocks and watches turn up in the US and European cities for auction, and many watches like yours had been ripped out of their cases, just has you thought, for the gold. All in that book by Ian White.

    Allan.
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allan, (sorry about the misspelt name before) in my hunt for Pocket Watches made for the Chinese Market (you put me on the right track) I found a few by these Makers: "William Anthony London, William Ilbery and his son, also James Cox, Pocket Watches for Chinese Market". The Watches that I have seen all had highly decorated Gold and enamel Cases and sold at Auction for amounts up to GBP 80,000 and more, well if the Case on my Percival had not been scrapped I would not be the owner of this beautiful movement. I have worked out that I can fit it into a Sterling Silver Verge Case if I can only find one that will take a Dial size of 52.44mm's. I found out that Colonel William Byrd II gave a highly decorated Pocket Watch (maybe Chinese Market) to his Daughter Wilhemina when she married. So there was a tradition of highly decorated Pocket Watches in the Byrd Family. The Pocket Watch is in the Virginia Historical Society and I will write to them to see if I can get a photo of it. I did 5 years at UTAS University in Tasmania when I was in my fifties so research is second nature to me. There was no restriction on using information from The Virginia Historical Society. The Book by Ian White is for sale at GBP50.00 a bit out of my league at the moment. Regards Ray Virginia Historical Society.PNG

    Virginia Historical Society.PNG
     
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  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #57 Omexa, Oct 24, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    ccv.jpg Hi all, I finally got there with the help of a lovely old Gentleman who wishes to remain anonymous. I was on the right track with the Bird Family being associated with the Coat of Arms; same Family but in the wrong Continent. So I went on a side trip to Virginia America. It was fun the research. "Dear Mr XXXX
    Thank you for your e-mails of 18 and 20 October which I received as Officer in Waiting for the week. When one is in Waiting one has scores of e-mails to answer each day as well as taking the phone calls and seeing those who walk in off the street.
    When you phoned on Thursday, I was doing a recce to see how easy it would be to look up the design on your friend's watch - we have never been publicly funded, so nothing is computerised, and we normally charge £90 for an identification - there are probably 100,000 different coat of arms on record.
    In looking through the pictorial designs, I see that on your friend's watch indexed under Bird. If you would like me to look out the record and give you what information we have about it, my fee will be £20 which should be sent to me in favour of College of Arms if you wish to proceed. If you prefer to pay by bank transfer, I can give you details of my client account.
    Yours sincerely,
    William Hunt, Windsor

    Dear Mr XXXX
    Thank you for putting a cheque in the post.
    The Arms on the back of your friends watch are those confirmed by William Flower, Norroy King of Arms, to "Rob Le Brid als Bird of Briexon in ye Pallatine of Chester Vicessimo Die Feb 1575 in ye Raigne of Queene Elizabeth", ie to Robert Bird of Broxton co Cheshire on 20 February 1575. The shield shown is white with a red cross and martlets, and a blue canton charged with a gold crescent; the crest of the martlet with wings elevated is red (Misc Grants 2.12).
    The full text in Latin together with the Arms with six quarterings impaling those of his wife is recorded at Misc Grants 6.12.
    At the Visitation of Cheshire in 1613 - the Heralds made Visitations to each county about once every thirty years from 1530-1687 for the purpose of confirming the Arms and recording the pedigrees of the gentry - a 15 generation pedigree was recorded for this family (C6.77).
    Yours sincerely,
    William Hunt, Windsor" 1.PNG 2.PNG This information is from a free Google Ebook. Regards Ray

    1.PNG 2.PNG ccv.jpg
     
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  8. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That is wonderful news, your tenacity as paid off. Though I now know not to look for Percival watches.
    (do you know if the Bird family were ever in China)??

    Best wishes,

    Allan.
     
  9. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #59 Omexa, Oct 28, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Hi Allan, this "a 15 generation pedigree was recorded for this family (C6.77)." (from: The College of Arms.) This Family traveled I think all over the World, and China is not out of the question. I just found a Robert Bird who was born in 1616 in Rappahanock Virginia and Died in 1656 in the Isle of Wight Virginia. His Father was John LeByrd Born in 1570 in Cheshire England and Died in 1630 in London England. It looks like they Anglicised the Sons Name maybe French sounding Names were not popular in America at the time? Regards Ray
     
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  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #60 Omexa, Oct 28, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Hi, I have just been tearing my hair out because I sold a while back, a Large Verge Case that I thought I would never need. Then today a "Second chance offer" came to purchase this Verge Case for US50.99. It is large enough to fit my Percival in complete with an inner Case that I will have to make-fabricate. Graham my luck is still in. I know what the original Case looks like but I will never be able to get one. Regards Ray 1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg 7.jpg 8.jpg
     
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  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I just got this from the Gentleman in the UK and also a photo of the back of the Gates at Westover in Virginia from Andrea who works at Westover Plantation. So we are back to Virginia. Chorlton_Hall,_Chorlton_Malpas.jpg Gates.jpg "Hi Ray,
    I had thought that the Family History brethren in Cheshire would long ago have sorted out their various Bird family lines, at least yours boasting Arms, and one (Delbird) who were prominent in the Elizabethan Court and included the composer William Byrd (1542-1623). However I have just heard back from the FHS in Cheshire to say that, despite the material left by the 'Visitations of the Heralds', the task has proved too difficult because of the complexity and size of the flock of Birds all changing their names (Bird, Byrd, Byrde, Le Bird, Le Brid, Delbird etc.).
    At the end of it all what do we know and is there anything useful we can deduce? I think quite a lot. Anyway I have put it all together below in terms which may be useful to add credibility and interest in your watch and its engraved Arms. I do hope so. If you need anything else just let me know. By the way thank you for your comment on my father's watch. XXXX


    THE ANCIENT BIRD FAMILY OF CHESHIRE, ENGLAND
    The records of the Heralds of the College of Arms in London (provided to us by William G Hunt, Herald of Windsor) confirm that the historical background of the Arms (Crest and Shield) engraved on the back of your Watch (movement made by John Percival of Woolwich, London, between 1793 and 1811) belong to an aristocratic Bird family of the County of Cheshire, England. The records also confirm that this family's line goes back to the year 1371 in the reign of King Edward III, and that on 20[SUP]th[/SUP] February 1575 while resident near Broxton south of the ancient Pallatine of Chester, Robert Bird of this family and his descendants were awarded these Arms (Escutcheon).
    This family had come to Broxton from Chorlton Parish near Malpas and its castle (about 5 miles south of Broxton). Following a survey of ancient properties that had existed in this area and time, only one was in the vicinity. This is Chorlton Hall, currently a grade 2 listed mansion; it was built in the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century on the site of an earlier mansion which was almost certainly the home of your Bird family who are referred to by the Heralds in the records of their Visitations to Cheshire in 1580 and 1613.
    According to "Cheshire - Roots Web (Feb 2001)", descendants of this Bird family include the three generations of William Byrd (I, II & III) who helped establish the colony of Virginia between the years 1674 and 1777.
    (photo of the present Chorlton Hall is attached)

    The full Arms of this Bird family as authorised in 1575 by William Flower, Norroy King of Arm, is described in records at the College of Arms as:-
    "The shield is white with a red cross and martlets, and a blue canton charged with a gold crescent; the crest of the martlet with wings elevated is red (Misc Grants 2.12). The full text in Latin together with the Arms with six quarterings impaling those of his wife is recorded at Misc Grants 6.12 at the College of Arms."


    Regards Ray

    Chorlton_Hall,_Chorlton_Malpas.jpg Gates.jpg
     
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  12. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, "The thing with these very small parts, is to do as much shaping as you can with the click still on the rod. Trying to hold them securely after you part them off isn't at all easy!" I know what you mean I just welded a Brass end onto the Case Latch; it is about half the size of a Match Head. I also found the Release Button. Regards Ray 1a.jpg 2a.jpg

    1a.jpg 2a.jpg
     
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  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    That's nice work! How much else do you have to do on it now?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Graham, I have to make a Case lock Spring and that is all. When the Case arrives from Hungary that is when I really have to start work making an inner Case to suit. Regards Ray
     
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  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I am back working on the Percival movement; a really large Fusee at 51mm's across the Dial and the movement is approx. 20mm's thick from top of Canon pinion to back of the Lid with the Byrd Coat of Arms of Westover Virginia on it. I am trying to case it and seeing as it may have been a Clock-Watch I am looking at all sorts of solutions. Regards Ray Westover Plantation - Wikipedia
     
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  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, seeing as I am not sure what this movement was housed in the first instance; it was maybe a "Clock-Watch" or in a massive Gold Case and a Pocket Watch; the Byrd Family of Westover in Virginia were pretty rich; so maybe a Gold Case? I finally found something to put it in; it is 51 mm's across the Dial. I think the Case is a Swiss Case; but maybe not; It has an early Locomotive on the back of the Case; someone will know who made it? I now have a Crystal for the Case; first photo has Crystal installed. I am not sure what I am going to do to the Top of the Case but it needs a Strong Bow because of the weight, 7.10 Ounces. If I ever get a suitable Silver Case in the future I will put it in it. It has lots of what looks like Platinum Balance Screws. I will have some suitable Hands somewhere, if not I will purchase some. Regards Ray

    1.JPG 2.JPG 3.JPG 4.JPG 5.JPG
     
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  17. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I only have one Verge case that big Ray............nice find!

    That's not my hand, fingers not fat enough.

    Keith R...

    SF7 (800x615).jpg SF2 (800x641).jpg SF3 (800x628).jpg
     
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  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #68 Omexa, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
    Hi, a bit more progress on the Case. I attached an old Sterling Silver Bezel to the Dial Plate and all you do is drop it in and Click the Case Bezel into place and the movement is secure. I had to come up with a Lateral thinking solution because there is no way to hold it in a case. I think it was a Clock-Watch originally. I put a top on the Case to make it look like a Key Wind Case, which it now is. Now I have to find an Hour and Minute Hands for it; I have the Second Hand. Regards Ray

    1.JPG 2.JPG
     
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  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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  20. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Pictures Please.
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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  22. Audemars

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    What a fascinating thread!
    I was halfway through and I was about to display my erudition about martlets when Ray and others beat me to it.
    Yes, they are definitely martlets on the Oxford arms; what I can't discern is whether the birds on Ray's watch also have feathers instead of feet.
    Ray, I was at Mill Hill School in the 1950s (I'm presently Master of the school Lodge) and an account of the school arms was one of the first things the senior boys drummed into us.
    Paul
     
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  23. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray, Now theres a place to spend some "Time".
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Paul and Allan, this is the second time I have stayed at the Quest; every time the NT Government do repairs on my Unit they exile me to the Quest; I will be there again when I have a New Kitchen installed. Regards Ray
     
  25. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allan, here is a photo with Hands; the Minute Hand a little short. Regards Ray

    1.JPG
     
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  26. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Hi Ray, what are they doing here, the second's dial at the top, why would they do that? I am still Barwising at the moment. You were going to look for yours, somewhere safe I hope. Allan
     
  27. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi Allan, it is that safe that at the moment I can't find it!!!
     
  28. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi all, I was looking at this Magnificent Pocket Watch and I realized that I had put the wrong Second Hand on it; a very large search was launched and Voila, I found the Original Second Hand; looks much better. Regards Ray

    20191203_100541.jpg
     
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