jewelers regulator movement, pinwheel --> questions!

[bruce linde]

just got this off of eBay... a friend said the use of steel pins indicated an older movement, but there are some oddities:

- there was an allen bolt holding the two pallet arms together. allen bolts were invented in 1909... did someone do some work on this thing? or was it made after 1909? hmmm....

- the crutch pin is tapered, but even the thinnest part at the end wouldn't fit in the crutch slot until i filed it open a bit.

- i'm used to seeing a steel pin that sticks out and a threaded hole in the bottom of the big flat crutch to hold a jewelers regulator pendulum in place. the single screw secures it, while the pin keeps the crutch and pendulum aligned. there is nothing like that here. i can certainly add a steel pin and use the existing screw to secure the pendulum (screwed into the regulating piece, behind)... but maybe both hanging crutch pieces are newer than the original movement?

anyway, just curious and having fun going through it. photos are after an initial lacquer removal and ultrasonic bath... i've only just begun...

 

[bruce linde]

just noticed this while reviewing the photos... add it to the list!

 

[PatH]

A little dental work in the future?

 

[bruce linde]

my clock mentor just took a close look at it and thinks it's old... and original, even if the crutch pieces are brass instead of the usual steel and we don't see a threaded hole and locking pin where one can attach a pendulum.

we also noticed that the back plate escape wheel bushing is a little proud and needs to be slapped down a little, as fully tightening the front escape wheel bushing (supporting the sweep second hand pivot) removes all slop and it won't run. another one for the list...

 

[brian fisher]

my observation:

this movement is definitely really old. i would say pre1880. the brass piece on top is not original. you can see file marks on the sides.

you don't often see brass posts holding these together, but my guess is that it was originally encased in a steel birdcage which is no longer present.

 

[bruce linde]

thx... i love the look of it and am trying to come up with a design for a mounting bracket that will reveal as much of the movement as possible while allowing me to hang it on the wall while supporting the weight of the pendulum and movement weight. i also have a repro jewelers regulator bob and a somewhat funky but serviceable gridiron pendulum i trying to cobble together into something that will work.

funny, i'm having a hard time getting to the actual work my clients seem to be expecting from me....

 

[bruce linde]

oh... and note that both the hour and minute hands will seem to want round holes... i'm not seeing the square mounting posts where square-holed washers twist 45 degrees to lock the hands in place...

 

[brian fisher]

well, the easiest way to mount this to the wall would be to flip that strip of metal on the top 180 degrees. just re-drill the holes to work and then you will have a hangar hole that is already inexplicably on the front.

 

[bruce linde]

well, the easiest way to mount this to the wall would be to flip that strip of metal on the top 180 degrees. just re-drill the holes to work and then you will have a hangar hole that is already inexplicably on the front.

there are two holes for screws that secure it to the movement... not sure i’d want to trust them with 25 or so lbs of movement, weight and pendulum... but yeah, probably.

i would also have to redrill the holes holding the suspension spring block... will take a closer look.

thx!

 

[Uhralt]

A wall-mounted bracket would do it. No need to make changes to the movement.

Uhralt

 

[bruce linde]

A wall-mounted bracket would do it. No need to make changes to the movement.
Uhralt

bracket made of walnut. note top support piece preventing movement from tilting forward. top piece and lower brackets are morticed/tenoned.

pendulum is cobbled together from the junk pile... the transition piece attaching the gridiron to the crutch is the suspension spring bridge from an old french movement. the bottom square edge keeps the pieces locked together.

need to figure out why it stops every now and then, repivot the front escape wheel pivot (or make an extender) so there's enough sticking through for the sweep second hand, stain/finish the bracket... but, to quote from sherman and peabody (for those old enough):



and...

 

[Uhralt]

bracket made of walnut. note top support piece preventing movement from tilting forward. top piece and lower brackets are morticed/tenoned.

pendulum is cobbled together from the junk pile... the transition piece attaching the gridiron to the crutch is the suspension spring bridge from an old french movement. the bottom square edge keeps the pieces locked together.

need to figure out why it stops every now and then, repivot the front escape wheel pivot (or make an extender) so there's enough sticking through for the sweep second hand, stain/finish the bracket... but, to quote from sherman and peabody (for those old enough):

View attachment 557701 View attachment 557702 View attachment 557703 View attachment 557704 View attachment 557705 View attachment 557706 View attachment 557707

and...

looks great!
I'm surprised that you trust that nailed-on hook to carry all the weight....

Uhralt

 

[bruce linde]

looks great!
I'm surprised that you trust that nailed-on hook to carry all the weight....
Uhralt

the hook is rated for 100lbs... we're at 25-ish with everything. there's also a screw between the lower supports going through the bracket and into the wall. i might run a thin steel wire up to the top of the wall where i can attach through to framing and help support the weight... but i think (hope) it will be ok.

i think building codes for new homes should require 1/2" ply from 4' - 8' up all walls to hanging clocks anywhere.

 

[Uhralt]

the hook is rated for 100lbs... we're at 25-ish with everything. there's also a screw between the lower supports going through the bracket and into the wall. i might run a thin steel wire up to the top of the wall where i can attach through to framing and help support the weight... but i think (hope) it will be ok.

i think building codes for new homes should require 1/2" ply from 4' - 8' up all walls to hanging clocks anywhere.

Thanks! I will sleep better tonight.
BTW: Beautiful clocks you have next to this one. I'm jelling (as the teenagers say).

Uhralt

 

[PatH]

i think building codes for new homes should require 1/2" ply from 4' - 8' up all walls to hanging clocks anywhere.

I'll second that! Or 4'-ceiling to allow for double layers as needed.

 

[bruce linde]

got it running... there were a number of issues... see annotated photo. currently running on a just over 5lbs weight.

 

[Uhralt]

Glad you've got it running! #3 surprises me. Is it possible that T3 has been re-pivoted with a pivot too long? It is hard to imagine that the pivot was too long from the beginning.

Uhralt

 

[bruce linde]

Glad you've got it running! #3 surprises me. Is it possible that T3 has been re-pivoted with a pivot too long? It is hard to imagine that the pivot was too long from the beginning. Uhralt

that's what i was thinking... i think someone was in the midst of working on this movement and either gave up and got interrupted. the different issues seem like they would have been caught a long the way.

 

[bruce linde]

now has hands and is regulated... those are pewter hands (just because i like them) with delrin bushings (took at least 30 seconds to lathe them to size). also balanced the second hand to minimize bounce.

 

[bruce linde]

got a new (old!) jewelers regulator pendulum for this movement off of ebay... the way the threaded rod at the bottom is made (and other details) looks very old to me. it's up and running.

 

[bruce linde]

so i just noticed the pendulum wasn't regulating and realized that the front triangular piece was locking the bob to the gridiron section... odd. i solved that by filing the single round hole at the bottom of the trianglular plate into a vertical slot, adding about 3/8" in either direction (up and down)... that allows the bob to rest fully on the regulating nut and gives the bob a little over 3/4" of vertical adjustment room. so far so good....

 

[Uhralt]

so i just noticed the pendulum wasn't regulating and realized that the front triangular piece was locking the bob to the gridiron section... odd. i solved that by filing the single round hole at the bottom of the trianglular plate into a vertical slot, adding about 3/8" in either direction (up and down)... that allows the bob to rest fully on the regulating nut and gives the bob a little over 3/4" of vertical adjustment room. so far so good....

I wonder if the triangular piece isn't a later addition. It appears to be not exactly centered, the left upper edge exceeding the grid more than the right edge. On an expensive pendulum like this, this irregularity seems highly unlikely, if original. What happens when you remove the three screws that hold the triangle?

Uhralt

 

[bruce linde]

the photo above is before i worked on the thing and the plate was indeed not secured properly. the top side screws are equidistant from the sides, and the center screw is centered. the plate hides any gap between top of bob and bottom of gridiron.

it's in the style of a french gridiron pendulum that i've seen more on portico-style clocks but also some jewelers regulators... including recently on the MB (although i can't find the thread).

i was, however, just looking for examples and four this new haven that sold off liveauctioneers in 2005... kind of looks like my pendulum might be missing a part that goes under the triangular plate, and the triangular plate might be a replacement... hmmm:

Oak New Haven Pinwheel Regulator Wall Clock - Feb 16, 2005 | Mark of Time in FL

Circa 1900 American New Haven Clock Co. 8 day Wall Clock with 12" Excellent enamel dial, Associated weight driven bra... on Feb 16, 2005

www.liveauctioneers.com

if that is the same pendulum, someone secured the plate to the gridiron, locking bob and gridiron together... whereas on the one pictured the triangular plate would hang off the missing plate and allow regulation...

so... anyone have a new haven book or catalog that shows a clock with that pendulum?