James Wallis, 6th D.G. Guards.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Dec 19, 2019.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I never really solved the mystery of the inscription on this movement? Maybe some fresh eyes will come up with an answer. Regards Ray

    20191208_032134.jpg
     
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  2. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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  3. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Is there a hallmark on the case?
    I assume James Wallis is the maker
    Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World lists:-
    Wallis James William London (Camberwell) 1862-78

    The 6th DG Guards were the Carabiniers a cavalry regiment in The British Army formed in 1685
    Wikipedia has a good article about them
     
  4. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Do you have an age, date of manufacture of the watch though?
    6th Dragoon Guards.
    So now we know that James Wallis may well have been a member of the 6th Dragoon Guards.
    However, if so he wasn't a colonel because his name isn't on that list. I did find this Search Results - British Army Ancestors though it doesn't tell us much. However, further links for searching could be;
    Further information on the 1871 Worldwide British Army Index | findmypast.co.uk
    British Army, Worldwide Index 1841 | findmypast.co.uk
    http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/british-army-worldwide-index-1861
    http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/british-army-service-records
    and just in case he was sent to Australia as a convict? http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/england-and-wales-crime-prisons-and-punishment-1770-1935

    He could have been in Australia? Maybe.
    Could he have also been an artist? Search for James Wallis in here https://www.hawkesbury.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/125056/ORD_FEB2_BP_Att7ofItem018.pdf
    One would hope he wasn't this bloke.

    I could do more but now that I have started you...
     
  5. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #5 Omexa, Dec 19, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
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  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #6 Omexa, Dec 19, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
    Here are the Hallmarks of the replacement Case. I think Birmingham 1820; so the movement was made before 1820? The 2 images are not to be Viewed by using a Stereo Viewer; I am building a Laptop at the same time as Posting and I stuffed up. Regards Ray

    3.JPG 3.JPG
     
  7. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Ray, I lean toward Mr. Munroe's suggestion in post #2 and the movement has the
    transition Tompion/Bosley I always associate with 1810.

    You should check those closets more often.

    Keith R...
     
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  8. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Have you ruled out the case being second hand?

    The reason I think that Wallis may the the maker is that his name and No 1820 are in a different script to 6th DG Guards
     
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  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    I'm as puzzled as you are about the possible meaning of this signature; if it's the 6th Dragoon Guards, (Carabiniers), then why the extra initial 'G'? Is this just an engraver's error? The 6th (Inniskilling) Dragoons doesn't seem to be a possibility.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - why do you think that this has been re-cased?

    I think it is possible that this is in the original box and the outer case was lost - hence the hole in the box and the rotating dust cover. Originally I think it might have been similar to the pair cased half hunter I posted 1826 C & J HOLMES, Cheadle half hunter pair cased verge fusee #9831

    As to the date of the case, this set of marks could be 1794, it is possibly 1820, but I am not 100% certain. It is very difficult, I find, to distinguish the lower case 'w' for 1794 and the uppercase 'W' in 1820. The maker's mark [WR] in an oval cartouche was registered by William Riley of St John Street , Coventry on 27 March, 1793 - so that doesn't help.

    1794 for the transitional regulator is early, but not that unusual - I have a Coventry finished example from 1789, most examples I can remember are 1800 to 1815, but an example from 1820 would not surprise. So I would put the date of the movement 1790 to 1820, which is consistent with the hallmarks on the box. If the box is the original, then on the basis of the pendant I would say 1820 is more likely. Despite the ornament on the scale, I suspect it has its origin in Coventry.

    Certainly different styles of engraving, from which it might be inferred done at different times. One possibility is that James Wallis was the original owner and if 1820 wasn't proceeded by 'N' it might have been a date - however pure conjecture.

    John
     
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  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I agree that these two letters of the Birmingham series are very hard to differentiate, but there is another factor to consider; the dial is clearly that of a half hunter, and whilst not unknown, these are very unusually met with in pair cases. Additionally, the pendant is at XII, which is wrong for a half hunter, so perhaps the dial is a replacement rather than the case.

    Ray, are there any signs on the pillar plate that the dial feet have been repositioned?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  12. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Graham - you are right to question my assertion that it may not have been re-cased, but not, I suggest, for the reasons you state.

    I do not agree that pair cased half hunters are as uncommon as you imply. I have a number of Coventry made examples, including the Holmes in the link. I see them on the infamous auction site fairly regularly. I infer they were made in reasonable numbers in Coventry from about 1820 until 1840. Rotherhams certainly made them. When cased in that way the pendant is at XII.

    However, in the pair cased examples it is the box that has the small window - which this clearly does not have. So it follows that even if my suggestion is correct and it was originally a pair cased half hunter, it has been re-cased. It will be interesting to see whether there is evidence that the dial is a replacement.

    Do you agree, ignoring the case date and dial, that the movement would be in the range 1790 to 1820?

    John
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    Oh yes, the transitional regulator places it comfortably in that date range.

    However, your argument concerning its re-casing does rest solely on the dial being original, so we must await Ray's investigations.

    The proportion of pair cased half hunters to their consular cased brothers still seems to me to be pretty small.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi John and Graham; I will have a look at the Dial Plate; I would be very pleased if it was in the original Case.
    "As to the date of the case, this set of marks could be 1794, it is possibly 1820, but I am not 100% certain. It is very difficult, I find, to distinguish the lower case 'w' for 1794 and the uppercase 'W' in 1820. The maker's mark [WR] in an oval cartouche was registered by William Riley of St John Street , Coventry on 27 March, 1793 - so that doesn't help." Regards Ray
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, there is no sign that the Dial is not Original; no Dial Feet change. Regards Ray
     
  16. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Ray - thanks for checking - for me that's good news. I have just realised that you possibly don't have the front of the box, so when I said ...

    I was talking out of the top of my hat - you have not shown a photograph of the front of the box (please don't say you have and I missed it!) - I assume it is missing. So I will stick with it originally being a pair cased half hunter from 1820.

    John
     
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  17. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, yesterday I toughed it out at Mindil beach casino during the Australia wide heat wave. I went with an Austrian friend Joe who at 85 years of Age still runs a Business. Regards Ray

    Mindil beach casino.jpg
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I was wrong, I thought that I had the Dial off; it is a rather unusual arrangement; I now find that the Dial is Original and no Dial Plate. Regards Ray

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg
     
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  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    I am very happy that the Dial is Original; I will now try to find a suitable outer Case. Regards Ray
     
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