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James Gould / Baltimore fusee

jboger

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I was puzzling over the name. I looked at the l in Baltimore and concluded that the last name was spelled Goiild, where the double i is a u, thus making Gould the last name. I'm not sure of the date letter, but it's one for Birmingham. I have not seen that many movements with the engraving done in a Gothic style. It's a Liverpool runner, but the indicator for the regulator doesn't strike me as done in Liverpool fashion. But perhaps I'm wrong? Unfortunately no outer case survived, at least not with this watch.

John

IMG_2272.jpg IMG_2271.jpg IMG_2270.jpg IMG_2273.jpg
 

gmorse

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Hi John,

Birmingham 1824/5. The maker/sponsor mark is hard to make out; there isn't a CP or an OP in Birmingham, there is a GP but he's a pendant maker and his date is far too late. If it's CR, it could be Charles Reed at Spon Street in Coventry, whose dates match very well.

I think you're right about Gould, the engraving is clearly intended to emulate the Liverpool style, but the execution isn't quite up to it, in fact none of the engraving is any better!

Regards,

Graham
 

jboger

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Hi Graham:

Yes, that engraving is nothing to write home about. Another watch with a hard life: take a look at the underside of the cap. One can see the metal has been crudely removed, I believe, to make room for the balance wheel. If so, the watch was restaffed and the balance wheel positioned too high.

Maker's mark: the first letter is most definitely a C. The second letter is an R with a defective front leg (I don't know what else to call it). So Charles Reed of Coventry, which is not too distant from Birmingham where the case was assayed.

Here's a question. If you look at my first picture in the original post you can see the inner box. I seem to recall reading years ago that this is a Liverpool style case, what with the broad flat stem, and that London style cases had narrow, round stems. I have certainly seen both styles. Does this geographical designation have any truth?

John B
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
Here's a question. If you look at my first picture in the original post you can see the inner box. I seem to recall reading years ago that this is a Liverpool style case, what with the broad flat stem, and that London style cases had narrow, round stems. I have certainly seen both styles. Does this geographical designation have any truth?
I associate that broad flatter pendant more with the period than the place of origin; it's a Regency style which carried on after 'Prinnie', (the Prince Regent, later George IV), into the reign of William IV.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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John - I am confident that this watch was finished in Coventry, probably based on a Lancashire frame. It will not be Vale & Rotherham as the engraving is not up to the standard of their finishing and the case would be theirs with the V·R mark.

Regarding the pendants the change from thin, often long cylinders, to fatter, often elliptical or 'flattened', pendents dates from ~1800. There was a tendency for the thin cylinders to persist later (~1820) on watches made/sold for/in London than those retailed in the provinces or finished in Coventry. From 1820, particularly in the London market you start to see almost spherical pendants on very short stems.

London cased Liverpool rack (1794) AND Liverpool cased Liverpool verge 1804

1638571218111.png 1638571347853.png

Dublin cased London cylinder 1806 AND Coventry cased Coventry verge 1817

1638571842754.png 1638572040842.png

Chester cased Lancashire Massey I 1824

1638572912631.png


John
 
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John Matthews

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I forgot to mention the maker's mark D on the cap is known on similar Coventry finished watches of the period. I have examples destined for the home market (single roller cased by J Heales 1827/28) and movements exported and cased in America.

John
 

jboger

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Thanks, John.

What exactly is the frame? Is it the pillar plate, the other plate,or both? And how does a Lancashire plate differ from any other English plate? I gather it has something to do with the position of the pillars?
 

PapaLouies

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Liverpool Runners, The train layout is clockwise with the third wheel planted near the barrel.
Regards, P/L
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
What exactly is the frame? Is it the pillar plate, the other plate,or both? And how does a Lancashire plate differ from any other English plate? I gather it has something to do with the position of the pillars?
It refers to both plates with the pillars holding them together. As P/L says, many Lancashire movements had a train layout which was the reverse of the 'normal' one, with the lever planted next to the fusee and the third wheel nearest the barrel, but I don't think this resulted in a significant difference in the pillar positions.

Regards,

Graham
 

jboger

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So a frame--any frame--is just the two plates sans any wheels or other attached parts. And a Lancashire frame held a Liverpool runner. (By the way, Liverpool is no longer in the county of Lancashire, not since 1889.) (Someday I'll get to the Lake District with a copy of Coleridge in hand.)

Do we have a specific name--a locale--for a non-Lancashire frame? Or is that simply viewed as the standard frame, not deserving of any place-name?

John
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
And a Lancashire frame held a Liverpool runner.
The 'Liverpool Runner' expression is simply shorthand for the way the train wheels were planted, as in posts #10 and #11. Whilst there were many watches made in the Liverpool area, (which included Prescot, Warrington and several other towns), with their trains planted in this way, there were also many that didn't and had 'conventional' trains. Conversely, the 'Liverpool Runner' layout isn't often found in watches from the other major centres, Coventry or London.

Do we have a specific name--a locale--for a non-Lancashire frame? Or is that simply viewed as the standard frame, not deserving of any place-name?
No, frames or watches with other identifiable characteristics from London, Coventry, Birmingham or anywhere else could well be described as such. Indeed, there are other features associated with Liverpool work which have nothing to do with the way the train is planted, such as the engraving styles and motifs and the large 'Liverpool Window' jewelling.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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John - this is my personal view of the situation from ~1800 and it is not to be regarded as 'gospel'

The way I think of this is in terms of the distinction made, or better implied, between the output of frame makers, movement makers and escapement makers. It is all to easy to get drawn into trying to define too precisely the lines drawn between these so called 'makers' and their products. When I use the term frame, I mean the fundamental skeleton - the minimum that is present in the most unfinished of unfinished movements - for these movements I happy to see them called raw movements. Such full plate frames consist of the plates connected by pillars and the balance cock. For half or three-quarter frames additional cocks to support the escape and fourth wheel may be present. Often the potences are present, but not always. I suspect that these 'frames' are most raw/primitive items that resemble the finished product that were traded. They were probably produced, completed, in a number of workshop with a single or group of workers with all the necessary skills without moving off-site. To be clear this is not to say there was not an active trade in component parts.

Various 'production paths' could be taken by these frames subsequently. Some may have continued to be worked on in the original workshop by others with the necessary skills - these might have been described under the term movement makers. The production of others may have been managed by that workshop but the work done by out workers. Others movements may have been completed by using purchased components - the possibilities are too numerous to continue. In any case it is really no more than speculation based on inferences rather than fact. Just because there is a list of 40+ different tasks that have been identified and individuals documented with titles that correspond to these tasks, it does not mean that this number of individuals were engaged in the production of any individual item. My opinion is that the number of individuals engaged in the manufacture of a single watch dropped sharply as the C19th progressed.

It is possible to use the term Coventry frame for some frames that carry makers marks that have been positively identified, but these are found in relatively small numbers (compared to the Lancashire output) and mostly after ~1850. However, there is also a respected opinion that a significant portion of the verge frames made in the C19th, and possibly earlier, originated from Coventry. Finally, I personally feel that rather more Liverpool runners and windows were copied and made outside Lancashire (only ceased as an administrative county including Liverpool and Manchester in 1974) than Graham suggests, but in that respect I suspect I hold a minority view.

John
 

jboger

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OK, I will interpret frame as an ebauche movement, a complete movement but an unfinished one, no dial, no hands, no engraving--no nothin'. (No jewels?) As such, it is a generic term. We may further specify a place of origin, for example, and say this is a Lancashire frame which may--or may not--be laid out like a Liverpool runner but is still a Lancashire frame. Features added later, such as relief carving on the balance cock, may be indicative of a locale, but these are secondary features added to the frame at a later point during the finishing process.*

Nearly all the lever fusees I have seen here in the States have been Liverpool runners. I do recall working on one that was reversed. I noted it in passing but gave it little thought.I called them left-handed and right-handed movements.
_________________________
*I try here to capture what I think was the dominant practice. I could imagine exceptions.
 

gmorse

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Hi John,
...a complete movement but an unfinished one, no dial, no hands, no engraving--no nothin'. (No jewels?)...
Yes, the jewels were added in later processes, and the 'raw' movements often didn't have any escapement parts, or at least balances either.

Nearly all the lever fusees I have seen here in the States have been Liverpool runners.
This is partly an accident of geography; Liverpool grew up as a trading centre and port and was ideally placed on the west coast of the UK for the export of goods to the US and South America. There was a watchmaking industry in the area long before the 19th century, with its own characteristic style and approach, diverging from the London traditions, and being ready and able to take advantage of the market potential of the New World.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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I will interpret frame (as an ebauche movement), a complete movement
If you are interpreting my post, I deliberately said it was not a complete movement - the frame as I use the term does not include the fusee, barrel, train nor the escapement.

Your experience of levers imported into the USA, reflects just that - the movements that were imported to satisfy what the US market wanted - Liverpool runners and windows jeweling.

I have photographs of 96 Joseph Johnson movements, a mix of US export and home market. I did a quick check of these 57 have windows jewelling and 29 are Liverpool runners. All but one of the runners also have windows jewelling.

John
 

jboger

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Yes, you did say that, John. I will reread you post. I thought you included the wheels. I have now deleted those. Gone. We should include the balance cock, yes? The potence? Possibly. I would remove anything else that has been attached to the plates. But I think we should include the third wheel bridge as part of the frame, no?
 
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