Jacques/Elite 13 tube Hall clock

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by brian fisher, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    some of you may remember a thread I posted several months ago about a Jacques 13 tube clock I happened across with no tubes. it turns out that yesterday was the day I finally went back over there and pulled the trigger on it.

    u8Z7mv.jpg

    this is a photo of the clock sitting in the warehouse as I found it.

    a few movement pics to follow:

    r6nH0g.jpg

    CgGKIw.jpg

    4nMiSS.jpg

    JyeitX.jpg

    mHrdzK.jpg

    this clock has had a good service not too long ago. all of the winding bushings have been replaced



    Fyu8Yd.jpg

    this is the cabinet in my truck. this one has some issues with the 3/4" pine bottom too. someone did some repair at one time. this is a different type of repair than I would perform. something I will get to eventually.

    for now, I just have designs to clean up the cabinet and get the time train to run.

    LAJ6ci.jpg

    this is the movement sitting on my "bench" or kitchen table. it is absolutely massive. the plates are easily 2x the surface area of my other Jacques. I would guess the hunk of brass in this photo weighs about 14lbs! I oiled everything and checked it out really good before putting it back in the cabinet. there are a couple issues. the gathering pallet on the strike train is missing. it appears to be the same as the one on my 11 tube movement. at some point, I'll take it off that clock and try it on this one. I tried to shoot a photo with my phone, but when I was going through to put them on line there was no pic.

    QpiFQz.jpg

    for some reason, the click spring on the chime side was not making contact with the click. this one holds the 35lb weight. I can tell there is evidence where someone has unsuccessfully played around with it a bit. I was able to get the screws out and adjust it so it now works properly.
     
    chimeclockfan likes this.
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Aren’t you running out of room in your house yet? :)

    Looks great, what are you gonna do about the tubes?
     
  3. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    SQERl6.jpg

    here it is in our dining room next to the 11 tube which is on the left. they are similar clocks but the 13 is significantly bigger. in this pic I have it ticking away. eventually, I will do a full restoration, but I think this will be down the road a spell. I've spent the last year and a half restoring clocks and shirking other projects such as a bathroom reno and other things. obviously, I need to figure out what to do for a set of tubes. I had a derelict 11 tube clock lined up to use as parts but unfortunately, it didn't work out
     
  4. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    get rid of the table and chairs and you could fit a few more clocks in there. :cool:

    nice job on the click.... my winterhalder’s chime side weight was a record for me @ 28 lbs... 35 is definitely some horsepower.
     
    124Spider likes this.
  5. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Now that you mention it, furniture has been slowly disappearing from our house to make way for clocks. Thankfully, my wife really loves me....i guess I need to stop soon. There is only one more hall clock we want. I really need to start getting rid of some we aren't using anymore.
     
  6. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #6 brian fisher, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
    update...

    so, I have spent a lot of time doing research trying to figure out what to do in regard to a set of tubes for this clock. there are actually quite a few different random things that use chime tubes. door bells.....an orchestra instrument that you hit with a hammer....

    in the case of the door bell, they tend to use 2 to 4 tubes max. not a good option for me. the orchestra instrument uses from 15 to 25 tubes. not bad, but it turns out they are extremely expensive to the order of several thousand dollars.

    both my wife and i grew up catholic and have spent some quality cathedral time in our day. my wife suggested that some church's have an organ that sounds just like my clocks......hmmm....interesting. after looking around a bit on line, I found there is indeed a handful of manufacturers that made chime organs over the last 100 years or so. after looking a little further, I found that you can buy a complete order of tubes for basically nothing.

    wDBRGZ.jpg

    rsbgaP.jpg

    yesterday, I purchased this set of 25 matched tubes for for 230 bucks! I did a good deal of research before I hit the "buy it now" button. those guys that deal in used organ parts have been doing this for years and know a lot about their product. i learned a good deal about chime tubes that generally isn't available to us as clock aficionados. I had always assumed the tubes were some sort of bell bronze alloy in order to get the sound and decay time. apparently I am told they are just extruded seamless brass tubing with a cap on the end? I am also told that since I just purchased a full order of matching tubes, all I need to do is figure out what my notes need to be and select those tubes for my clock.

    this brings me to the next order of business:

    a3aOLE.jpg

    today, I purchased this multifunction tuning tool. since I already have an 11 tube Jacques clock, I plan to first use this tool to figure out the notes of the 11 that I already have and then simply match up the tubes from the organ set. this will leave me with 2 more to properly determine. I have a couple of ideas here. first, there is another member who recently worked on a Jacques 13. I am hoping he will be able to measure that set. by process of elimination, I can figure out if my 2 missing bells are longer, shorter, or one of each. a bit of math and a comparison of what I have should tell me pretty close which two to select from the batch of 25.

    there are a couple more items on my grocery list:

    I am missing the gathering pallet on the strike side. I'm pretty sure I will need to have one custom made. I tried swapping the part from my 11 tube but it turns out it is probably the correct shape, but a size or two too small.

    the next item is a weight issue. one of the weights is not original. it should have come with (2) 12lb weights and a 35lb weight for the chime train. unfortunately, I have 12, 18, and 35lb weights. my correct weight should be 10"x2 1/4"

    here are some pix in the event one of you may have one you are willing to part with. trade ya for an 18 pounder! :)

    rVqrxF.jpg

    dRGRz9.jpg

    5e1DGJ.jpg
     
  7. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The Jacques 13 tube set is identical to the 11 tube set with the addition of two more tubes: a high D flat (shortest tube) and the longest tube (low F) which is just used for the hour strike chord. It would be easiest to set it to the chime which uses all tubes: Elite Carillon, which is presented in the attached musical score. This is the original 1904 music score which presents the hour strike as just one low tube - on your clock it will be a 6 tubes chord instead.

    img042.jpg

    Adding brass caps to each tube will help to give a deeper, more resonant sound as is appropriate for American tubular bell chime clocks. I would anticipate suitable caps may be found at a hardware store.
     
    brian fisher likes this.
  8. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    absolutely awesome Justin! thank you so much for that. I don't know how to read music so that sheet is kind of like looking at Egyptian hieroglyphs to me. I bet there will be someone along in my travels that will be able to make good use of it to my benefit. however, knowing that I need one higher tube and one lower is really helpful.

    some time ago Justin, I recall you mentioning that Jacques clocks could be ordered with 1 1/8" or 1 1/4" tubes. do you have any photos of clocks with the one and a quarter set? I would really like to see what those caps look like. of all the "Elite's" I've happened across in the last couple years or so, I have yet to find a set larger than one and an eighth.

    these tubes come with a black cap that has a good sized divot in the top. it doesn't look very original unfortunately. we will see what they look like when they arrive on my doorstep. I am told these things have amazing sound and were manufactured to very close tolerance as far as pitch is concerned. two experts said the tolerances are much tighter than hall clock bells. I was also told that unlike clock tubes, these were built to such tight specs that you can replace one without perceptible difference in pitch or sound. I looked at several sets before purchasing this one, but I think these are tuned to 440 hz. I was thinking about having caps made that look like the originals and then having the entire tube nickel plated.



    I'm tossing around the idea of making a set or two of wind chimes with the leftovers.
     
  9. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is a photo showing a 9 tube clock with the large 1 1/2 inch diameter tubes. The large tubes were more constrained in regards to spacing so certain cases could only come with the smaller diameter tubes.
    E3.jpg

    And an 11 tubes clock very much like your own. The 11 and 13 tube sets normally used 1 1/8 inch diameter tubes.
    BAP01JacquesMvtLeftSide.jpg

    The capped end of an Elite tube from a large 9 tubes set.
    tube end.jpg

    The large tubes on this 13 tube (8 small pipes x 5 large tubes) set shown in the catalog page are 1 1/2 inch diameter - notice the caps.
    BD Cat 3.jpg

    More chime scores. It occurred to me that the 1904 Elite Carillon score was written in a different key signature than what was normally used on production 12 and 13 tube clocks. This score should represent what key signature your 13 tubes clock would have been originally tuned to.
    BD Cat 2.jpg

    The 1 1/8 inch tubes were keyed in D Flat Major and tuned to 466 Hertz standard, however the exact pitch varies as one might expect from what was basically a mass-produced clock. When retrofitting new tubes the exact size isn't so important as long as the sound is acceptable & no issues arise with spacing.
    Using a MIDI program, the descending scale of notes corresponds as follows.
    Notes For 13 Tubes.png
     
  10. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    my Kliq metropitch arrived in the mail today. just like any new toy, i loaded a set of batteries and took to playing around with it.


    i read through the directions but the reality is that i really have no idea what i am doing with the thing. i had it set to pitch "c" and 440hz.

    I struck each tube from left to right while holding the tuner within a couple inches of the bottom of the tube. these are my results:

    1. A -20
    2. F -10
    3. G+5 then after about 2 sec the tuner displays "D"
    4. D +10
    5. G +3
    6. F +0
    7. G +0
    8. G -10
    9. G -5
    10. B +0
    11. no display but after about 2 or 3 seconds sometimes get a reading of F

    that sure is a lot of G's......perhaps i don't have the tuner set on the correct pitch. i think it might be a good idea to check the tubes outside of the cabinet.
     
  11. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User
    Donor

    Feb 15, 2018
    234
    46
    28
    Male
    Full time clock and watchmaker
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Brian.
    I have a few guitar tuners and the newest ones have a hard time with acoustic guitars, and other things even in a quiet room, unless its held against the guitar. Or clock case.
    I'm not sure how much the case of those works as a acoustic chamber like ones with gongs mounted directly to the case. Just something to try to see if it gives a better reading.
    Dan
     
  12. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    that is an interesting thought. i tried measuring a couple tubes by holding the tuner against the cabinet. i wasn't able to get any sort of reliable reading that way. i'll call the company that made the tuner when i get back home next week. it will be interesting to see what advice they might offer.
     
  13. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The reason guitar tuners do not always give accurate readings for bells or gongs is because each bell or gong will produce several non-harmonic overtones. The guitar tuner does not know which overtone frequency it's supposed to go by, so you will end up with erratic readings. How do the new tubes sound compared to your 11 tube Jacques clock?
     
  14. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User
    Donor

    Feb 15, 2018
    234
    46
    28
    Male
    Full time clock and watchmaker
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    For the reason chimeclockfan states My guess is the company may try to sell you on a strobe tuner. lol it would probably work better for bells and such but they are quite expensive and a little more of a knack to use. When I worked in a music (mostly guitar) shop in the late 90's early 2000's they had one for $1100 or 1200 Canadian. Unless they have updated cheaper ones now.
    Dan
     
  15. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    that is an interesting point both you and justin have made. i did a search on the net and found a strobe tuner app for my cell phone. it is about 10 bucks. i will call the Kliq guys and see what advice they have in regard to the tuner I just bought. if that doesn't work, i'll probably send it back and purchase the app.


    haven't received the tubes yet. i bought them knowing that the guy was going to be on vacation. he says he'll be back on the 11th. i am anxiously awaiting them however.
     
  16. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,324
    257
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Looks like you've seized an opportunity to own a very nice, rare 13-tube Jacques. If it's possible to exceed original specs, I'm sure you will. You mentioned making a wind chime with your left over tubes. I thought you might find this website interesting: DIY Biomass and Chime Design
    Good luck Brian.
     
  17. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    thank you Bruce. I'll read through that when i get time.

    Hopefully, they will be arriving by the end of the week.
     
  18. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    made large strides on a tiny little part yesterday. I mentioned above once or twice the gathering pallet on the strike side came to me missing from the movement. about a week or so ago, i was asking my sensei for his advice on fabricating another one. he graciously invited me over to work on it in his shop.

    I've never made one before so it seemed prudent to take up the offer.

    mDNMUe.jpg

    this is Jim setting up the mill with a piece of 1/2" bar stock.

    nKoaPb.jpg

    this one is simply a close up of the same thing. I think after this pic, 2 more passes were cut to get the part to the correct diameter.

    hh2vLr.jpg

    LuGqF2.jpg

    these two were taken after the flag was silver soldered to the tip. some filing has been accomplished but there is still a lot more shaping to do. personally, i would have never thought of making this part in two pieces. my plan had i done this myself would have been to hand shape a single piece of steel with a grinder and file.

    DQsT99.jpg

    vipNoD.jpg

    xlTsOc.jpg

    the three photos above depict a comparison of the gathering pallet from the chime side that we used to model the strike. as you can see. there is still a good bit of filing to be done. i feel like we have the hard work accomplished though. i was concerned about making the tapered square female hole. in the end Jim ran a drill down the center and cut the flats by hand with a file. i'll finish the rest of it up when i have time.
     
  19. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,024
    249
    63
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I just wonder where the pallet came from that you used for comparison?

    Uhralt
     
  20. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #20 brian fisher, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
    it came off the chime side of this movement. i suppose i cannot say for 100% certainty they were made exactly the same, but i test fit the original on the left side and it worked well. i guess i will know for sure once i get it all together.
     
  21. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #21 brian fisher, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    i had some accomplishments over the last day or two.

    04A8oG.jpg

    dJmVoF.jpg

    in anticipation of my organ tubes hopefully arriving in the next week or so, i decided to get on with the hammer leather change out. as you can see in the first photo, most of the old pads are completely worn through. metal to metal contact is not so nice. i decided not to go into detail about the replacement here since i feel like i covered it pretty thoroughly in my 11 tube Jacques restoration thread. needless to say, this is the same 1mm thick Goodwill purse leather i use on all of my tube clocks. the cardboard is to keep the hammers from flopping around when removing and installing the assembly.

    XI8QwB.jpg

    w3UvDK.jpg

    i had the face off the 11 bell so i thought i would take photos illustrating the comparison in size between the movements. there is a whopping difference between the two. even though they may not have been taken at exactly the same distance, the dial opening is exactly the same for each cabinet.

    i finished up the gathering pallet tonight. all the hard work was done previously in Jim's shop.

    JEH2BP.jpg

    just so it is posted here in this thread, this is the tapered square the pallet attaches to in some models of Jacques clocks. he made many different designs during the 20 or so production years. it is my general theory that the later style clocks all used this type of connection while the earlier models used a round shaft with a pin which seems susceptible to shearing off.



    back on topic: it was mentioned above that i removed the pallet from the chime train to model the new fabrication for the strike. unfortunately, i found that once i had the clock all set up to test it didn't work out so well. in the video above, i have the chime pallet on the strike side. you will notice that every revolution pulls the rack ahead by 2 teeth. dang! at first, when i noticed this, i started to freak out a little bit. my worry was that all the work we put into making this little part may have been for naught. i simply took a step back and spent a little time thinking about a viable solution while watching the clock run through its sequence a few times.

    6SQa6F.jpg

    i decided that shortening up the tooth was the solution. about 15 minutes with a file and this is the final product. the one on the right is the pallet Jim and i fabricated. you will notice the tooth is noticeably shorter. it was just a matter of a little trial and error to get it to the proper fit.



    here is a little video clip of the chime side working properly! yay! please excuse the snow patrol song playing in the background.

    8I7Cfy.jpg

    this photo shows the clock holding up all three weights in proper fashion for the first time since i have owned it.

    now if only those darn chime tubes would arrive......!
     
  22. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The 11 tube movement really corresponds to the old 'Monastery' size movement, which was smaller and subsequently used a different design for the chime mechanism levers. All grades of movements Jacques and Borgfeldt used were always high quality - there were never any really "cheap" clocks. Compare and contrast with what makers during the 1970's were doing in regards to clock engineering.

    The issue of chime racks skipping was noted by Jacques in some of the older Bawo & Dotter era literature: to correct the chimes you would simply move the minute hand towards the quarter-after hour (15 minutes), letting the clock go into warning, then turn the hand back so the clock chimes one section of its chime melody. Continuing until the chime melody is in proper order. This negated the need for a pullcord or repeater lever which were considered undesirable. Thinking no one liked having the cord sticking out of the clock, or perhaps Mark Twain had something to do with it. In any instance Jacques really did put more effort into engineering chime clocks compared to other makers, both during his time and in later years.

    When the chime tubes eventually arrive I'm eager to consult further, though my first recommendation would be to compare the new tubes to those of your 11 tube clock.
     
    brian fisher likes this.
  23. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I talked with my friend Dan about this very subject some time ago. His thought was that the monestary movement went away during the Bawo & Dotter period, but jacques used several of the principles he learned to make movements more economically in order to increase profits for the Bauerle company. Oddly, the hammer pulls are exactly the same for both movements.

    In the case of the 13 tube clock, it was apparently built in a no holds barred, spare no expense fashion in parallel to say a Bentley automobile. I am told this clock wasn't really intended for residential use, though there were no restrictions placed on who could buy them.
     
  24. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

    Aug 5, 2013
    544
    62
    28
    Male
    Student
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It is interesting if it wasn't intended for residential use. I would wonder why companies would make a chiming clock but alienate a large portion of their regular consumer base. Many commercial clocks I've seen have been time only, sometimes they had striking. Most chiming clocks I've seen in a public area have all been silenced, so it seems a waste to spend more money making a third train and tuning a set of 13 tubular bells just to have them silenced. Just my two cents.

    Great job with everything, by the way!
     
  25. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It may have been more common in years past but having an imposing chiming clock out for public display is not unheard of. Libraries and office lobbies are the most commonly chosen locations in my experience and the clocks were always set to chime or strike.

    While none of my Jacques literature on hand suggests the 13 tube clocks for any particular setting, here is an example of another 13 tube Jacques ideal for a large public space or lobby. The giant round dial with contrasting numerals and hands would be more easily read in a public setting. This clock had an electric wind mechanism which composed of a sewing machine motor that rewound a single weight. The weight operated all three trains. Four chime melodies: Westminster, Trinity, Notre-Dame, and Elite Carillon. Notice the doors standing alongside.

    MAH01-Jacques13Tube-Frt2Perspective.jpeg

    * A bungalow clock refers to a smaller floor clock typically around six to seven feet in height, with anything taller than that being considered a 'hall clock'. Jacques seemingly never made any floor clocks smaller than that. The term has not been regularly used since the 1930's.
     
  26. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

    Aug 5, 2013
    544
    62
    28
    Male
    Student
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That must be one heavy weight! I wonder if the movement was similar to Waterbury's line of Westminster grandfather clocks, where two of the three trains were driven by one weight and a metal strap. It certainly looks impressive and I wonder if there were any shortcomings with using such a design.
     
  27. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The one weight was cable driven without any straps. I would guess there was some way for it to maintain power so the chime and strike didn't interfere with timekeeping. While these clocks were successful enough to warrant continued production throughout the Borgfeldt era, most of the electrically wound clocks were dumped when the rewinding motors failed & repairmen simply couldn't figure out any solution around the problem. In hindsight it would have been an electrician's job to get the motor serviced. You could manually wind the movement by hand through the dial's arbor but this would have meant winding it once a day.

    The alternative chime melodies were also more popular during the early 20th century. Every clock company had their array of customary chime melodies... Jacques had the Trinity and Elite Carillon among others, Herschede had the Canterbury, Colonial was among the first to use the Winchester. American Chime Clock had a six bells chime called the Vesper and Waltham had a similar chime known as the Oxford. Hanson had the Litchfield and St. John's on six bells, and a demonstration chime called St. Peter has also surfaced on a handful of 9 tube clocks. As one may guess most of these were just variations of existing melodies, almost always using Jacques or Herschede's offerings as their basis. The vast majority of customary chimes fell out of favor by the 1960's and nowadays there is very little attention given to anything beyond Westminster when it comes to modern clocks.
     
  28. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    not that i have much that i could add to Justin's comments, but I'm told my 11 tube was originally in a law office in New Jersey. Along those lines, i could think of tons of commercial applications for this sort of clock.
     
  29. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,324
    257
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There's a 9-tube Herschede currently on eBay with some provenance information and photos. In the original owner's home it actually faded into the background with the Piano and ornate furnishings in the Hall/Room.
    In a contemporary setting, it just dominates the Wall/Room. I just think it's an interesting contrast and a good indication of the types of settings these clocks were made for. Some of the Catalog illustrations give a good idea as well. I can't link to the listing of course, but if you search:for "Antique 1916 Herschede Grandfather Clock 9 Tubes 3 chimes w/ Provenance" you'll see what I'm talking about.
     
  30. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    that one is in fantastic shape for its age considering the fact it apparently has not been restored. it is quite uncommon to find a 3 chime Herschede from that era.

    I suppose I am going off on a tangent, but I think the seller is going to need to lower their expectations a good deal if they plan to sell it on eBay. I purchased the Jacques clock that is the subject of this thread from a local clock shop called Chappel Jordan. I would say this store has been here the longest, has the best reputation in the area, and generally caters to a high-end clientele. the restored antique clocks in their showroom are often listed at some fairly stratospheric prices. in spite of this, they move a good volume through there on a given month. My bud up in Portland who restores mostly 3rd gen Herschede also sells a decent number of clocks a year for top dollar. however, the tube clocks listed on eBay or craigslist north of say 3 grand or so never seem to sell. they just list and relist for perhaps years with no takers in sight. what i have learned from this is that buyers with a lot of money to throw at this sort of thing are going to spend it with a reputable dealer trading out of a brick and mortar shop and not likely from some random guy selling online. there are few exceptions where something really rare happens to come up. An example i can think of from about a year ago: someone listed a very rare Herschede Edinburch(not Edinburgh). it took months but i believe it finally sold for around 11k. in the case of the clock Bruce mentions in the post above, i don't believe the cabinet has enough collector's appeal to fall into this category.

    Here is a rhetorical question of which I don't expect an answer: if i were to try to sell my 11 tube, what could i reasonably expect to get for it? i know what this clock was selling for 15 years ago. I have the ability to show pretty good documentation based on what was posted in the thread i made during its restoration. it is indeed pretty rare and has some collectors appeal due to the uncommon songs it plays and 2 extra tubes. Would that help me sell it for a premium? perhaps it would fall closer to the "random guy trying to sell online" category. my thought is that if i were to expect a good price, i would have to find a reputable shop willing broker it to their longstanding list of deep pocket collectors. this begs the question of who would risk putting their reputation on the line for the work that i did?

    Thus are the sad problems of trying to sell a nice hall clock in today's market as i see them. :oops:
     
  31. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,242
    105
    63
    Male
    Underwater Robotics Expert
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It baffles me when I see a clock listed for say $500+ on Craigslist and they have 1 photo, and usually it's not a good one. Rarely do they have any more than a one line description. The best I saw was a typical gingerbread clock - I forget what the terse description was, but the one photo showed it sitting on the bed rails of a pickup truck. He was asking $3,000. I just shake my head and say to myself, "Yeah, that will never sell like that." I suspect these people think they are sitting on a gold mine.

    Tom
     
  32. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,324
    257
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes, I don't think that the asking price is realistic for the Herschede, As you say Brian, they're asking retail prices with no history, or guarantee. Interesting bells on it though and I really thought that it was "cool" to see it in its original home/environment. It blended right into the room. The original owners must have been very well off.
     
  33. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    brian...

    setting the tuner to A=440 is the right thing to do.

    all of your readings should be close to 0... a minus number means the note is flat and the tube can be shortened ever so slightly. a plus number means the thing is ringing sharp...and the tube probably needs to be moved up to the next/shorter position and a new one cut.

    as a long time professional musician i have been through way more tuners than clocks... and that’s saying something! :)

    strobetuners have multiple bands on the spinning disc (analog or digital representation) that show you the main note frequency AND the harmonics... but i don’t think you really need one. of course, what does need have to do with it... they’re very cool. the classic analog one is the peterson... but they aren’t cheap.

    i use a tuner app on my iphone and ipad called cleartune... like it a lot, but any tuner should work for you. the trick is to not hit the tube too hard... just enough to start ringing. if it rings to the left of center on your readout, it’s slightly flat and needs to be shortened... just like a pendulum. put the tuner in the bottom of the case where the mic can pick it up... don’t hold it.

    knowing you, you’ll probably want them to be dead on the correct pitches... but you could also make them (for example) all consistently a little sharp (i.e., +20) and no one would ever really know. the absolute most important thing is that they are in tune with each other... no sour notes. i spend every day playing along with recordings from the beatles, beach boys and hendrix to modern jazz, fusion, and other types of music, all after very carefully making sure my basses are in perfect tune... only to find that the original recordings we all know and love are perfectly in tune but slightly sharp or flat of A=440.

    again, your tubes are going to want to be in tune with each other.mfeel free to reach out PM or call if you’d like to discuss strategery or have questions.





     
    brian fisher likes this.
  34. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,324
    257
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm no musician and my ear is probably "tin" but FWIW, the website on making wind chimes had this to say about tuning tubes using one of their length calculators:

    Do not use these calculations for an orchestra or a musical setting unless you are certain they use A=440 Hz. An orchestra or symphony may brighten slightly and will typically tune for A=442, 43 or 44 The above chart uses A = 440 Hz. Most symphony grade instruments are shipped with A=442 Hz. While orchestra grade chimes typically do not go below the C5 octave, they are not tuned for the fundamental frequency, which is the basis for all the calculators on this website. Instead, they tune for the overtones and depend on the brain's fuzzy logic to perceive the correct note. An orchestra chime that is tuned for C5 will typically be cut for a length around C2 and then hand tuned to become a perceived note of C5.

    Maybe that makes sense to you orchestral musicians out there...
     
    brian fisher likes this.
  35. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good news!!!!! my tubes arrived.....finally!

    TCUFpB.jpg

    M59ze8.jpg

    the purpose of the blue tape on the short one is because it turns out that one is unfortunately cracked. i sure hope i dont have to use this bell.

    lGRWoO.jpg

    this is what the caps look like. they are some sort of plastic phenolic material. i plan to buy some 1 1/4" brass bar stock, have more original looking caps made, and then get the tubes nickel plated so they look a bit more like they would have come in this clock.

    0vFm0y.jpg

    i didn't have a lot of time to fool around with this project yesterday. i had some chores to do in addition to getting ready to fly out in the morning. I tied new strings to each tube and attempted to use my Kliq Metropitch to determine the note. i attached the same leather to a small ball peen to strike them with. ah....man....that tuning tool is simply useless for chime tubes. i get the same skewed results as i did with the original 11 tube set. most likely for the reasons other members have already mentioned in this thread. most organ tubes are actually labeled (stamped) with the frequency and note. sadly, it turns out these are not. a few of these have little stickers with hand written labels such as "a", "b", and "f". the metropitch didn't really get very close to those supposed notes.

    UOF01C.jpg

    so....my method for filling the cabinet was to measure the longest tube in the 11 bell's cabinet, choose a tube from the organ set that was a few inches longer followed by the shorter tubes in decending order. i then hung them in the cabinet in the 13 tube Jacques order. i do realize my phalacy. i am sure most if not all of them are completely the wrong note. the good news is that even though the original tubes were 1 1/8" and these are 1 1/4". there is still plenty of room inside the cabinet and more than enough space between so as not to cause interference.



    i made a video so all of you can see my progress. i think this song is supposed to be "Elite Carillon". pretty much everything needs adjustment. the pin barrel is way out of sync. as mentioned above, i still have no idea what i am doing with the tubes and their proper notes.

    more than anything, i think the tubes themselves sound great inside the clock and this video demonstrates the viability of what i am trying to accomplish here.
     
  36. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    progress!!

    I spent a lot of time this week thinking about the methodology of how i was going to be able to properly choose my notes. i decided i needed to make them all sing.

    BnNQAs.jpg

    excuse the messy garage. i would like to say the reason is because there is so many "genius" projects going on in there i simply don't have time to organize it.

    a few years ago, i built a mezzanine to store a lot of my crap yet still have room to put my wife's car inside. turns out, that was a good place to make an abnormally large tube rack. this was about a 20 minute project at the very most. deck screws....2x4's... and small nails spaced at exactly 1 1/2" to hold up the tubes.



    the first order of business was to simply strike every bell so i could make sure i didn't have any dead notes. the decay time on these tubes is truly insane! i am about half deaf, but i can still hear resonance well over a minute after i strike one of them. take note of my leather covered ball peen mentioned in a previous post above. Beethoven i am not.

    l0eWng.jpg

    since i am musically challenged, i decided the best course of action would be to compare the notes in my 11 bell to this organ set.



    I simply went through all 11, one at a time in this fashion until i found the notes that best matched. each was pulled out of the set and put aside in its proper order to be fit in the 13 tube cabinet. i found that the most matching notes would eventually make a "wahwahwahwah" sound when both tubes were played together. i would guess the reason for this is that since they are siightly different sizes they probably resonate at different frequencies. i believe they would alternatively cancel each other out then compliment each other as the sound decays off the note.

    MNE7Uv.jpg

    9g1buY.jpg

    these two are simply a comparison of an original tube with its organ counterpart. as mentioned above, the replacements are 1/8" larger diameter. i also found that the organ tube was in all cases slightly greater in length to play a coinciding note. this became useful information when it came time to sellect the 2 final bells.

    now would be a good time to mention how much i have appreciated the help i've received from a couple of NAWCC members. first, i reached out to @dumpsterdiver who posted a thread several months back about a 13 tube in the repair section. he was gracious enough to go back over to the customer's house and measure all the tubes for me. this tidbit of information was invaluable for a couple of reasons. i found that 11 of the 13 exactly matched in lengths of the tubes in my other clock. a simple way to validate the data of all but 2 bells. this information also enabled me to make an educated guess about the other two tubes as yet to be determined. I also need to thank Justin. his advice has been invaluabe too. everything he told me about these chimes has turned out to be exactly correct!

    3b1uAa.jpg

    this is the diagram Randy sent my way. as Justin mentioned, the 2 tubes left to determine are the 1st and the 13th. for the first, the diagram shows the length of the original to be 73 3/4". my calculations determine that the correct replacement length for this one should probably be around 78". however there are 3 reasons why i won't be using a tube of that size. first, the longest tube in the organ set is about 75", so i don't even have one as a choice. second, the cabient isn't tall enough to accomodate a tube that long. third, this particuar bell doesn't actually play a note in any of the 7 melodies programed into the movement. it is simply one of the 6 harmonic notes for the hour strike. in this case, i simply chose the longest tube of 75" to occupy the space.

    mBCkBT.jpg

    you can see there is about 2" left over in the bottom of the cabinet with the longest bell installed.

    finally this brings us to the conundrum of what to do for the 13th chime. i measured all of my original tubes and all of the replacements. by comparing, i found that the longer, lower frequency tubes should have about 5" difference between them and the higher notes should be around 2-2.5" longer. Using randy's diagram, i found the original Jacques 13th bell should be 36 1/2 inches. based on this information, i chose tube 22 from the organ set because its height is 38 11/16". the next longer tube (number 21) already occupies the 12th position and the next shorter one was only about an inch longer than the original. and so this is how i filled my cabient.

    txBfYs.jpg

    my selections.

    oNROAU.jpg

    the leftovers



    for yor musical listening pleasure. i need to make some adjustments. i do have to say that i am pretty impressed with how it is turning out. does it rival or eclipse the original sound? in my opinion, i have to say i think it is pretty darn good. the tubes resonate a lot longer than the originals. they seem to play a little more boldly. i would compare it to the sound of a Herschede 250 vs. a normal Herschede 9 tube clock.


    thoughts?
     
  37. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    love the sound... as a musician i'm always listening to the attack of the strings... or tubes... these sound even and a less hard/harsh than most to me... a little quieter and not as 'fill the mansion' as most i've heard.

    you can hear some ever-so-slight need-to-be-tuned things when the chords are hit, as well as one hammer slightly lagging in attack so that it's a hair late... but OMG so impressive and well done!!!!

    (and, as you say, you're still fine-tuning)

    keep on, brother.
     
    brian fisher likes this.
  38. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    gFP2Wd.jpg

    one more i forgot to include in the entry above. my next order of business is to buy about 18" of 1 1/4" solid brass barstock to make more original looking replacement caps. i also plan to get everything nickel plated once i get the new caps installed.

    that is a huge compliment coming from you Bruce. thank you.
     
  39. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Brian - your clock looks and sounds great now, really pleased that this all worked out. The new tubes sound more or less identical to an original 13 tubes set. With the usual fine-tuning and adjustments it will be one of the best tubular bell chime clocks out there. The looks, sounds, build quality... Jacques really knew how to make a clock. :thumb:
     
    brian fisher likes this.
  40. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    how much do you think it will cost to nickel plate them?

    whatever it is... that is one gorgeous clock and getting more gorgeouser with each session w/ dr. fisher...
     
  41. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm honestly not sure what the cost will be. i would guess 2 or 3 hundred bucks? truthfully, as long as its somewhere within reason, i don't really care. i figure that whatever it is, will probably be a lot cheaper than the miraculous impossibility of finding an original set. i am thinking about looking into laser engraving for the caps. (ELITE Patent Dec. 4, 1900) this would be rather frivolous though. i realize no one will ever see them but me.

    i fiddled around with it some more this morning.

    here is my latest vid. i think the clock is playing Elite Carillon? whatever it is, i really like this tune.



    when i get time, i plan to make another video of both clocks playing(one after the other) so there is a good comparison in one place.
     
  42. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 21, 2006
    3,740
    106
    63
    Chime clock & gong studies.
    WI
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That is the St. Paul chime, using 10 bells but 8 notes per segment. It is the same as what your 11 tube clock plays. All of the 11 tube clock's chimes are shared with the 13 tube clock.

    Jacques was really the epitome of quality when it came to factory-produced chime clocks. Sadly the Jacques brand was a victim of depression-era economic woes and resource constraints, having ended in 1933 when Borgfeldt became financially insolvent and was reorganized into the Geo. Borgfeldt Corporation. Though Borgfeldt continued to import torsion clocks, there was never made any attempt to produce any new chime clocks. A depression-era market would have meant making substantial changes to continue chime clock production & none that could really uphold the level of quality Borgfeldt strove for. The correlated Celebrate brand underwent a very short-lived and minor attempt at cost-cutting but this did not last long and that brand was also ended around the same time Jacques fell.

    On a brighter note, Borgfeldt's chime clock brands went out with dignity. They never stooped to extreme cost-cutting or selling out like other clock companies and brands did.
     
  43. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    @brian fisher - i can read music if you threaten to shoot my dog if i don't (and give me a slide rule and a calculator and extra time)... but i'm a life-long ear player... so i asked the keyboard player in my band to make a quick reference recording from the sheet music @chimeclockfan provided above in post #7 for your reference. i wasn't expecting him to do it on guitar, but he did. he wasn't expecting his roommate to start practicing trumpet at the end, but he did. there you go... hope it helps.



     

    Attached Files:

  44. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    lol. that is awesome man.
     
  45. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    not too much of an update. i picked up a 16" piece of brass barstock to make a set of original looking tube caps.

    p4WKd4.jpg

    i've been fussing around adjusting the hammer pull strings a bit in an attempt to get a more even sound out of the tubes. most of them are pretty close. i do have to say that in this department, Herschede clocks are superior. they have a nice vernier adjustment knob on the top of the hammer pulls which makes it really easy to get the tension perfect. with a jacques, there is only a clamp.

    the auto sequencer advanced the pin barrel to Auld lang sine this morning. this song still doesn't sound quite right to me. i suppose i probably have some more fiddling in my near future.
     
  46. ratch

    ratch Registered User

    Nov 7, 2018
    6
    0
    1
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Could I get some contact info on where you purchased the chime tubes. I have a colonial 5 tube chime clock that is missing all the tubes.
     
  47. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  48. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    4,943
    367
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    brian fisher likes this.
  49. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

    Jan 20, 2017
    1,108
    189
    63
    houston, tx
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #49 brian fisher, Apr 29, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
    I picked up a lathe this week.

    s1jRk9.jpg

    it came with a lot of accessories.

    i used it today to make my first part which happens to be a brass cap for one of the tubes of this clock.

    nSLjXL.jpg

    i have the original cutting bits that came with the lathe originally. unfortunately, they really aren't super sharp. an item on my list is to buy a few good sets of tooling.

    ZCMAsE.jpg

    the cap installed in the tube and a comparison to the original. i am really happy with how it turned out. only 12 more to go.
     
    dgoerner likes this.
  50. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 14, 2013
    634
    146
    43
    Male
    Texas
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    coming along very nicely Brian. You will have a real showpiece before long

    DPC
     

Share This Page