1801 - 1900 English J.G.Graves

[John P.]

I have a pocket watch by J.G. Graves. I have read the history of this interesting retailer and understand his watches were imported and were Swiss. I did notice the movement has two motor barrel mainspring housings. Would someone please tell me if this was common and what the purpose was? Thank you.

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

Some pictures would be a great help. If I recall correctly, Graves also sold watches made by the Lancashire Watch Company in Prescot. If your watch does have twin barrels, it could be an 8-day model.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

J G Graves retailed watches from various makers. Many have dials marked 'The Express English Lever'. These were most frequently Coventry & Birmingham made single roller movements by makers including Ehrhardt (Birmingham), Errington, and Williamson (not marked Express) in addition to the Lancashire Watch Company as mentioned by Graham. The various makers can be generally recognised from the designs and often by the maker's mark on the cases

Here's a composite of one from my collection, a 1899/1900 Lancashire Watch Company made example with the case having the mark [TPH] Thomas Peter HEWITT of the LWC..

John

 

[John Matthews]

Sorry - I should have twigged earlier. I think there is a strong possibility that the example you describe does not have twin barrels, it has Morcom's 1886 patent safety device ...

which looks like this in edge view ...

If correct there is a strong possibility that the movement was made by the Coventry firm I J T Newsome and the case may carry this mark ...

John

 

[John P.]

Hi John,

Some pictures would be a great help. If I recall correctly, Graves also sold watches made by the Lancashire Watch Company in Prescot. If your watch does have twin barrels, it could be an 8-day model.

Regards,

Graham

Here are 2 photos of what appear to be 2 motor barrels. If. better photos are needed, please let me know.

 

[John Matthews]

The photographs - confirm this is an example pf LWC's frame ...

The barrel on the right, drives the 'false barrel' on the left that drives the train.

John

 

[eric the bully]

It seems to me, they were called dummy barrels because only one was the barrel the second was an intermediate wheel.
Regards enrico

 

[gmorse]

Hi John P.,

This arrangement was used so that those customers who were accustomed to winding their old fusee watches anti-clockwise could continue to do so with a 'modern' going barrel watch. The term 'motor barrel' is usually applied to specific designs used by some US makers, intended to avoid the damaging consequences of spring breaks.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John P.]

Hi John P.,

This arrangement was used so that those customers who were accustomed to winding their old fusee watches anti-clockwise could continue to do so with a 'modern' going barrel watch. The term 'motor barrel' is usually applied to specific designs used by some US makers, intended to avoid the damaging consequences of spring breaks.

Regards,

Graham

Was this arrangement a common thing? Perhaps more common with a large retailer like Graves? I have never seen it before.

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

Was this arrangement a common thing? Perhaps more common with a large retailer like Graves?

It wasn't uncommon, but I think it was more of a manufacturer trend than related to the retailers. Its presence isn't always apparent from a cursory examination of the top plate.

It might be thought that any lingering habit of anti-clockwise winding would have faded away by the time your watch was made at the end of the century, (the LWC only existed between 1889 and 1911), but they included several models with this feature in their range. Fusee watches were still being made at this time, although the trade was much diminished.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

As Graham has indicated the purpose of the 'dummy' wheel was to enable the watch to be wound anticlockwise. The term dummy is the way it is described by LWC. However, remember we are describing watches that were key wound and my understanding is as described by John Platt in his tome on LWC ...

Removing the fusee usually resulted in watches being wound clockwise, and many retailers complained to the manufacturers that their customers were returning their watches broken, having tried to wind them anticlockwise - as they had always done with fusee watches. The LWC inserted a dummy wheel which enabled anticlockwise winding.​

​

So it was the manufactures who did the manufacturing, but it was driven by conservative customers.

Throughout the LWC ledgers the escapements with a dummy wheel is designated 'D' and that includes the Newsome examples with their patent. To give you an idea of the output there were 300,000 size 16 'D' watches made by LWC.

In addition to the conservative customer reaction to going barrel watches, there was the response by the manufactures to the potential damage caused by mainspring failure, e.g. Newsome's safety wheel.

If you wish to know more about LWC and the watches they produced you need to read Lancashire Watch Company, History and Watches by John G Platt published in 2016, from which these

John

 

[John P.]

As Graham has indicated the purpose of the 'dummy' wheel was to enable the watch to be wound anticlockwise. The term dummy is the way it is described by LWC. However, remember we are describing watches that were key wound and my understanding is as described by John Platt in his tome on LWC ...

Removing the fusee usually resulted in watches being wound clockwise, and many retailers complained to the manufacturers that their customers were returning their watches broken, having tried to wind them anticlockwise - as they had always done with fusee watches. The LWC inserted a dummy wheel which enabled anticlockwise winding.​

​

So it was the manufactures who did the manufacturing, but it was driven by conservative customers.

Throughout the LWC ledgers the escapements with a dummy wheel is designated 'D' and that includes the Newsome examples with their patent. To give you an idea of the output there were 300,000 size 16 'D' watches made by LWC.

In addition to the conservative customer reaction to going barrel watches, there was the response by the manufactures to the potential damage caused by mainspring failure, e.g. Newsome's safety wheel.

If you wish to know more about LWC and the watches they produced you need to read Lancashire Watch Company, History and Watches by John G Platt published in 2016, from which these

View attachment 755902 View attachment 755903

John

Thank you all very much.

 

[Les harland]

It looks to that that the LWC was able to "modernise^ a standard fusee watch by simply changing two components
The holes in the plates appear to be the same