American Ives Hoop Wheel Anomaly

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Jim DuBois, Oct 10, 2019.

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  1. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #1 Jim DuBois, Oct 10, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
    Sharing this to see if anyone has seen anything similar in any of their clocks. This Ives clock mechanism is circa 1824-1827 and is pretty rare. This "hoop wheel" is certainly different than any I have seen in any other clock mechanism. It is my assumption, perhaps incorrect, that the teeth in the valley(s) of the cam exist for a reason. Why remains unclear to me. Any ideas? Watching the strike stop, warn, and run doesn't offer any clarity as to purpose. Yet, I can't imagine Ives adding this complication just for the fun of it. Times were tough for him as he built these, in between bankruptcies, and possibly in and out of debtors prison in NYC at the time. It is thought he was bailed out by John Birge about 1828, but not documented.

    And his credit report has nothing to do with this wheel, but I found it interesting and tossed it in.

    20190914_093733 (2).jpg
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    would love to see what you’re seeing... video?
     
  3. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Movement is apart for a bit yet. Other unrelated work underway. I will try to do a video when I get it back together.
     
  4. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Jim,

    Could it be an iffy solution for a bouncy lever causing failure to latch things up at end of striking?? Just a thought. Would like to see the video.

    Where do you post your videos.

    Ralph
     
  5. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    can't imagine what the four steps would be for... definitely a curiosity!
     
  6. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    [QUOTE="Ralph, post: 1309887, member: 524"Where do you post your videos.[/QUOTE]

    best to set up a free youtube account, upload videos there for best cross-browser and cross-device compatibility, and then simply copy-and-paste the url of the youtube video in a post here... the video will be automagically embedded in the post.
     
  7. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Movement is apart at the moment and it is one of the most unpleasant movements to assemble that one might come across. It has 12 arbors to position, and that means 6 in the strike side, all of which have to be timed perfectly. No "close" or a tooth off in the strike side, any place. It took me over 3 hours the last time I reassembled it to get the strike timed properly and all back together. It is the beast I am using for an avatar at the moment. I will do a youtube when it goes back together for the last time. Here are a few photos for your viewing pleasure. Not many of these around and few of us get the "opportunity" to mess with one of these.

    2018-01-30 10.48.30 (2).jpg 2018-01-30 10.48.44.jpg 2018-01-30 10.49.10.jpg 2018-01-30 10.49.25.jpg 2018-02-13 16.24.25.jpg
     
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  8. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    wow... lucky you! :)

    are those rolling lantern pinions?
     
  9. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    That they are, all rollers making up the pinion assemblies. 10 roller pinions, 8 leaf, 6 leaf, and 2 are 4 leaf (strike side) Then there is the assemblage of bent coat hangers to deal with

    20190914_094537 (2).jpg 20190914_093932 (2).jpg 20190918_193218.jpg 20191010_123020 (2).jpg 20191010_122942 (2).jpg
     
  10. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The teeth of the wheels have a very unusual shape. Is this related to the rolling pinions?

    Uhralt
     
  11. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Yes, a trait of Ives roller pinion movements.

    20190914_094929 (2).jpg 20190914_094501 (2).jpg
     
  12. senhalls

    senhalls Registered User

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    Thank you for the show and tell. I have never, and will never, see the like. Your photos are of wonderful quality !
     
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  13. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    There are not a lot of these Ives Brooklyn model 6 arbor clocks remaining today. Perhaps a dozen, most likely less of them. These clocks are quite important in the history of clockmaking in America but are sadly overlooked. They represent the first use of rolled and stamped brass frames in clockmaking. Others have been given credit for that application some 10 or 15 years later. Microphotography and analysis of the frames of several of these clocks support the observation these frames were stamped out of sheet brass using a press and appropriate dies. Of course, the wheels are of rolled brass also. Rolled brass was introduced in American clockmaking by Ives in his mirror clocks about ten years before his making these Brooklyn model clocks. These clocks were also Ives's first use of wagon spring mechanisms in brass clockworks. Ives produced these movements for a very limited time. He replaced these movements with a strap style movement before 1830 but continued to use a similar case made by Ingraham. The six arbor movement cases were thought to be made by Duncan Phyfe. The version with the strap movement can be seen in the next to last photo and the last photo is of the later case style.

    064zah.jpg 752590_view3_03x.jpg 752590_view9_09.jpg 1052710_view 03_03.jpg 063zah.jpg
     
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  14. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    The movement is now back together and running. The saw tooth portions of the cam have no function as it runs/strikes. The saw teeth at the root of the cams are evidence of how the cams were shaped. It appears as if the cams were shaped by a sawblade approach, and the blank was indexed about the width of the blade, and successive passes were made. The lifting face/ramp was filed to shape after the bulk of the material was sawn away. Boring, but no other purpose. I did take a video to confirm this action, but it is 41 MB and sadly of out of focus and not worth posting.

    20190914_093733 (3).jpg hoop wheel detail.jpg
     
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  15. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    quick fyi... size of video doesn’t really matter when embedding a url... it’s youtube’s problem! :)
     
  16. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I find it nevertheless interesting how this part was made. One would think that these could just be stamped out.

    Uhralt
     
  17. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Yes, it is strange that Ives did not make up a die and punch these cams as he had done on the frames. The frames are the first known examples of rolled brass being stamped into frames, circa 1824+/-. There are still traces of that stamping process seen on the frames yet today. Prior historians tend to give Noble Jerome credit for doing that, but he lagged Ives by 14-15 years in his making stamped frames.

    Regarding the hoop wheel cam, I have had two of these clocks here, both of them have the sawtooth detail. It is estimated that Ives's production of these clocks was perhaps no more than 100.

    While the entire clock was extremely innovative, Ives missed the mark on some important details. While both examples have had a fair amount of wear, suggested they ran for a fair amount of time, neither example has sufficient power still being delivered today by the wagon spring to run more than a couple of days, if that.

    There is also considerable extra power required to run the six arbor trains. It is interesting to note Ives's immediate successor to this mechanism employed a four arbor train and also featured the first use of a strap frame as well as a 24-hour count wheel, both part of his upcoming 1833 patent model.

    20190910_162012 (2).jpg 20190910_162027 (2).jpg
     
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  18. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    unfortunately the quality is on me! Or lack thereof! Here you go
     
  19. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    good enough... i like the stylistic cutouts that have nothing to do w functionality but look deliberate.
     
  20. senhalls

    senhalls Registered User

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    What did someone pay for such a clock then ? And what was Ives profit margin ? It must have been little or nothing if he was bouncing from one bankruptcy to another.
     
  21. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Were these clocks advertised as 8 day clocks? I wonder if the spring has become tired over time or if these clocks never performed better.

    Uhralt
     
  22. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    I think the springs have relaxed considerably in the two clocks I have had here. I do have the 3rd example in the house I will be testing later.

    Peter Gosnell did a superb analysis of wagon spring power reported in a 2004 NAWCC Bulletin. He reported in his testing the force available in his Brooklyn #1 model limited tests ranged from fully wound at 8.5 pounds of force, down to 3 pounds approaching fully unwound. Neither of the clocks I have had possessed this much force at the high end.


    It has been reported elsewhere that the value of an Ives mirror clock, an immediate predecessor to the Brooklyn clocks, was about $37.50. I would think the Brooklyn wagon spring would have been about the same price. And normal wages for workmen were about $1 per 12 hour day, so these clocks were not cheap. Or, the clock may have cost two pigs, a cow, and three chickens. Barter was still common in those days, and cash was hard to come by.
     

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