ITC Self Winding Gallery Clock-What Voltage? Not Self Winding

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by popeye, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Cleaned and repaired an International Time Recording Clock. It is a gallery clock that is self winding. I have it on 3 volts, but it is not winding. Measured voltage and there is 3 volts on top part where it connects and I get almost no voltage where it is connected on bottom near coils.
    Does any one know what voltage is needed for this clock? I have it set up for 2 d cell batteries. Again, it is not winding. I do get a little spark on the upper connector when revolves.

    Before I put on the pendulum when it did connect the coils that you see attached to box did raise up when the lever on top did touch. Now it is not.

    Need help getting this to wind.
    Advice appreciated, thanks!!!!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 15, 2004
    22,067
    1,024
    113
    Male
    Ne’er do well
    Here and there
    Country Flag:
    I will move this thread to the Electric Clocks forum where it should get a proper response.
     
  3. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
  4. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    7,135
    31
    0
    Region Flag:
    The clock in your photos is probably not just a "gallery clock" but one designed to be a "master" clock capable of controlling a small network of slave clocks.

    There is very little data extant on these early ITR/IBM master clocks. I am surprised that you got any motion on winding armature when as you stated, the "contacts on top closed." Three volts is extraordinarily low for the early ITR/IBM master clocks; usually it's higher 6 or 12 volts and unless you have some evidence of a lower DC battery voltage being used, I doubt that you'll have much success with two "D" size flashlight cells. Later production ITR/IBM/Simplex generally used 24 volts DC or have a built-in transformer-rectifier assembly.

    The presence of the old style carbon contact relay is strongly suggestive that the clock was made to control slave clocks.

    The principle of the relay is to switch heavier electrical loads such as the winding electromagnets on the movement and any attached network of slave clocks.

    The relay should logically become energized by the small contacts on the movement when they are operated into a closed condition briefly once each minute as the escape arbor rotates the actuating cam.

    In turn, when the relay is energized, it's metal contacts should close the movement winding circuit and any attached slave clocks. When the relay is de-energized the carbon contact should open the circuit, absorbing any arc caused from the "back emf" generated by the electric current inertia in the electromagnet coils of any attached slave clocks and the winding electromagnets on the movement.

    The carbon contact relay is very old fashioned. The carbon contact is supposed to be replaced when it is expended from usage.

    I would suggest posting a photo of the top of your clock revealing the connection lugs where the battery supply and slave clock network would have been connected. We then, could most likely assist you better.
     
  5. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    #5 popeye, Jan 24, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2010
    I am attaching some more pictures. I did post the top, there is writing on the white enamel, but can not make it out.
    On the plate the model:120 and serial:290608
    Appreciate the replies-getting this to work is driving me nuts.

    One last thing I am attaching another picture (second row) of the coil attached to case. On the lower right side of the coil there is a metal part and there is a wire coming straight out of the hole. Looks like not 100% attached. The wire is touching the nut right in front. I do not know if that would make any difference.

    Again thanks for replying and giving all the information!!!
     

    Attached Files:

  6. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    #6 popeye, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
    Well an update. I connected a 4 d cell battery for 6 volts. You can hear it connecting, just like my other ITC self wind. Guess it is the power.
    Another question though. How and when does it actually wind? Been watching it and I do not see the spring move at all. So I do not know now if it is actually winding. Can someone explain when the spring winds?
    Also if it is actually working I gather the 6 volts is enough? If so, how long will it be before I have to replace the Duracell batteries? Wondering if I should parallel another 4 so I do not need to keep changing the batteries:???:
    I am attaching a picture of the clock.
    Advice appreciated, thanks!!!!

    PS-Well it is clicking, but not winding. She stopped and spring was run down. I measured the voltage at the screws near the bottom coils on the movement when it connected. It read .23 volts then goes to 0 after releasing. The screws at the top of the connectors on movement shows 6.24 volts constantly.
    Any ideas on a fix?
     

    Attached Files:

  7. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Popeye, I've never run into a gallery style clock like yours that was using a master clock movement. If it works like any other ITR/IBM master clock, the contacts on the upper left should make once a minute. This should activate the wind magnet to impulse to advance the wind ratchet by one tooth. Can you manually activate the wind magnet by pushing it in and letting it out, and does it wind when you do this?
     
  8. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Thanks for info and reply.
    Yes it does manually wind when I move the proper gear. As mentioned, I get the connections and clicks like my other clock, but this is not winding though. Does the drop in power from bottom connection have anything to do with this. Noticed the winding action-it looks like the power moves up a bar that pushes up on a gear that pushes up the gear to wind it. It is not doing that.
     
  9. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Moving the gear will wind it. You need to also be able to move the part that makes that gear move. Pushing the bar should transfer power to impulse the ratchet gear.
     
  10. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:



    You are correct-but there is no power to do that.
     
  11. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Does it work with finger power?
    If you hook up your batteries directly to the wind coil for an instant, will it advance the ratchet?
    Popeye, too bad we aren't neighbours, I would love to pop over and help you.
     
  12. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    It does work with finger power. I will try to hook it up to the bottom coil. Thanks.
     
  13. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    7,135
    31
    0
    Region Flag:
    #13 eskmill, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
    Hi Popeye. I have studied the photos of your ITR 120 beat Master clock at length. The wiring appears to be exactly as International made the connections at the factory.

    This is unusual, as most ITR/IBM/Simplex clocks have had alterations made in the field and the wiring is almost always altered making analysis difficult.

    I have traced each wire but can only guess how the connections were made to the relay in the lower left of the case.

    As I stated previously, I strongly believe the movement winding electromagnets are energized through the relay circuit and not directly from the contacts operated by the cam on the escape wheel arbor once a minute.

    Instead, the contacts on the escape wheel arbor when closed briefly once every minute, energize the electromagnets on the relay. The relay, in turn attracts its armature causing both the tungsten and the carbon contacts on the relay to close which completes the circuit to the movement electromagnets.

    I have copied your photo and added red letters A through D to each wire so as to explain the circuit.

    Wires A carry current from the battery positive to the front most contact lever on the movement and to the upper terminal on the movement winding electromagnets. As the contacts make Wire B then carries the battery positive current to the relay coil.

    Wire C carries negative voltage from the battery to the relay coil and also the the armature of the relay. When the relay electromagnet is energized, the relay contacts close completing the negative voltage circuit carrying current in the wires labeled D. The wires labeled D connect to the lower terminal of the movement electromagnets and to any attached slave clocks.

    Try actuating the relay armature with your finger and with 6 or 12 volts connected to the battery terminals A and C The winding electromagnets on the movement should attract the armature which will raise the winding pawl and advance the mainspring winding ratchet one click.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    #14 popeye, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
    Wow, thanks for the effort and responses.
    I am not sure if I am reading your instructions correctly. With my 4 D cell battery source connected I did touch the armature that is near the arbor. It does "click" and connect, but the bottom lever does not raise up one time to move the winding pawl.
    I took my meter and connected it to the the A&D wires and the bottom connectors where the two black coils are on the movement. There is no power there. I did that when I also connected the armature and no power registered. Where does the power come from to raise the winding pawl? When I raise that bar where the pawl is connected it seems like it needs a lot of power-not easily raised. It seems like all is working correctly, but there is now power to move that winding pawl up.

    Are you asking me to take the wires from the 4 D cell battery pack and connect it directly to the bottom A&D connections at the bottom where the wires are going in near the two black coils to see if that raises it one click when connected?
    Lastly, should I try 8 d cell batteries instead of the 4 I am using?

    Kind of stymied, thanks.
     
  15. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Popeye, it's likely that the movement needs service (at least, clean and lube).
    Does it wind when you manually (with finger pressure) activate the wind magnet? Or will it not release?
     
  16. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    An Update.
    Took it over someone who is a lot more knowledgeable. We tried it with higher voltage-12v-and it worked fine. It did move up one click upon contact.

    I am awaiting another 4 d cell holder and will set it up for 12v power.

    Does anyone know another way to get 12v or type of battery source?

    Thanks again for all the replies!
     
  17. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Popeye, it's not too hard to find rechargable 12 volt batteries. The ones I use are 7.2 ampere/hours. You would also need a small trickle charger. I know where to get them here, but not in New York.
     
  18. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Thanks, can you get me a make and model?
    The one I have seen are kind of big and would not fit in the case.
     
  19. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The one I have is an EaglePicher rechargeable lead acid battery. Says DK20E and CF-12V7.2
    It has a phone number on it you could try, to find a supplier:
    800-201-0215
    It is 6 inches by 2 1/2 by 3 3/4 tall.
     
  20. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    7,135
    31
    0
    Region Flag:
    One of the most convenient 12 volt DC sources I have found is sold under the Belkin name. It apparently was designed as a stand-by 12 volt DC supply for computer modems, routers or network hubs.

    It has a replaceable 12 volt gel-cell of about 8 or 9 ampere-hour capacity.

    I found five at an electronics sale and have found all kinds of use for them but have never tried one for a clock because I don't have any clocks wanting 12 volts DC.

    In the photos below, the gel-cell is partly removed.

    I have no interest in Belkin products.
     

    Attached Files:

  21. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Les's battery looks about the same as mine. If you could find one like his with a charger, you would be further ahead. I get mine from an electronics company that sells them used (usually just a few years) from companies that routinely change them on maintenance contracts. They will last a long time if they don't go below a critical voltage (ie, better on constant charge, standby)
     
  22. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    I found these two. Wouldn't I be better off with the 8 D Cell batteries? I would think they would last a long time. 8 batteries cost $8. With less weight and space:???:

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-1-Trickle-Battery-Charger/dp/B000H94F7S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1264643692&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Schumacher SE-1 Trickle Manual Battery Charger - 1 Amp: Automotive[/ame]

    http://www.batterymart.com/p-12v-7ah-sealed-lead-acid-battery-f2.html
     
  23. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's worth a try. I've never run one of these masters on anything except an transformer and a rectifier, which is how the factory would have run them. But I've also never run into a 12 volt master, or a gallery clock design.
    You will know after trying how long a stack of D cells will last.
     
  24. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Well thought I was done with questions, but no.
    I am trying to set this as series. Trying to add two 4 d cell battery holders that are connected by using snaps. I would figure I would have the two holder with each having the snap holder on top and then connect the two red wires together and attach to the wire one clock and then attach both black wires from the snap wire and attach that to the other wire. So the question the question is is is this the correct set up to get 12 volts from this set up.
     
  25. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Popeye, you need the batteries in series, so you have to go red to black to red to black to red to black to red to black, etc. If each holder has a 3 volt output, 4 of these holders will be 12 volts.
     
  26. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
    NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    7,135
    31
    0
    Region Flag:
    NO. Don't use the wiring scheme you described above.

    Think of a series connection of flashlight cells as links of a chain.
    Think of a parallel connection of flashlight cells as multiple chains.

    Series electrical connections are voltage additive.
    Parallel electrical connections are current (amps) additive.

    I strongly recommend that you study up on basic DC (direct current) electrical concepts.
     
  27. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
    Deceased

    Apr 7, 2005
    5,064
    7
    0
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Am I missing something here....Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to get a 12v transformer? I have a transformer on one of my SWCC master clocks (not 12v though:)). When I first got my IBM/ITR Master I bought a 24V DC transformer for it.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  28. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    #28 popeye, Jan 28, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
    Thanks for reply, again!
    You have this happening four times. I have 2 holders that each holds 4 d cell batteries with snap attachments. I will have two sets of back and red wires to attach to clock wires.
    I am attaching a picture. I have another 4 d cell holder coming soon. I have (2) 2 cell holders there just as an example. So I will have 2 red wires and 2 black wires from the batteries and you can see the wires from clock-one green(A-from Echmill's diagram) and the other black(C-from diagram).

    I am obviously confused. How would you set red to black red to black and attach that to the clock wires(green & black)?
     

    Attached Files:

  29. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Richard, I am assuming Popeye doesn't want a wire running down from this clock. Popeye, I don't know how you are going to do it, but that's how it has to be done. Positive to negative to positive, etc. Nothing else will get you 12 volts.
    PS: looking at your pack, you should have 6 volts in each pack. I thought you had a 2 battery pack not a 4 battery pack.
     
  30. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Sorry, I guess I did not explain it to well.
    I figured I would try this way first because it is smaller and I want it to fit in the box.
     
  31. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Since you only need two packs, just connect a black in one to the red in the other. Polarity wont matter, so hook the other two wires up to the clock.
     
  32. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
    1,458
    0
    36
    Country Flag:
    Must be doing something wrong. I received the second battery holder. What I did was take the red wire from one holder and put it under the black wire snap on the second battery holder and the black wire under the red snap on the second. I connected and check the voltage and was under 1 volt. Also the top snap connector got real warm and smelled.
    How can I get the voltage needed with these two holders-I followed the directions?
    Assistance needed, thanks.
     
  33. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    162
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think you misunderstood the directions. No one told you to do it like that. Take the red from one, connect to the black on the other. Use the two unused wires to run the clock.
    You will need a new set of batteries.:eek:
     
  34. mrclockman

    mrclockman Registered User

    Feb 1, 2007
    31
    0
    0
    Retired X 3
    Fayetteville, PA
    Once you figure out what voltage is required, you might want to run the clock constantly. I think batteries might be a hassle. Consider a DC source such as a power supply used with a laptop computer. I am still researching my self-winding project
    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=56757&highlight=winding+master
    but I found that a 20v/2 amp DC power supply is working fine. I had to consider volt-amperes. I did put an in-line fuse as a safety. I will post my research/progress to my thread later.
     

Share This Page