Is this legit?

[ejc544]

I have just completed rejuvenating a dark walnut kitchen clock that I had acquired about five years ago. There are a couple of puzzles that I wish to present for discussion:

1. The information on the movement does not jive with the case, but indeed it may not be a marriage of two clocks. Let me explain. Since my photographic skills are nil, let me assure the reader that the movement is clearly stamped E. Ingraham & Co., Patd. Oct 6, 78, Nov. 11, 79. Bristol Conn. The case, see attached photos, appears to be complete with its original glass that clearly states Niagara Trademark. The label, which is incomplete, indicates that it is an 8 day Niagara. The name of the company has been obliterated, but it does say Manufacturing Company followed by Erie, Penn.

Strange! Perhaps not. A little bit of googling revealed that during the 3 rd quarter of the 1800’s the states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Connecticut were each vying for the rights to an area at the base of Lake Erie. After much debate, the Federal government gave the county to Pennsylvania so that it could have dual access to large bodies of water.

Could the case have been made in the contested territory and then shipped to Bristol, Connecticut where the movement was inserted?

2. Behind the movement, written on the backboard is some scribbling in
pencil followed by 11-14-02. Can I assume that this is a repair
date?

3. The repairs of faulty bushings are interesting. If you look closely at the bushing adjoining the count wheel, you will notice that it appears to be a button shaped piece of metal. A similar repair appears on the back of the movement as well. Both items are affixed to the movement with solder. Is repair typical of the early 1900’s or does my clock belong in the infamous Hall of Shame?

As always, your comments are deeply appreciated.

Ed Cypress

 

[Andy Dervan]

Hello Ed,

I believe your theory is probably incorrect. Ingraham made everything in Bristol CT until early 1950's and stayed in business until almost 1960.

Looking at the Ingraham catalog there is not a clock that looks exactly that yours, but there was a whole series of them manufactured during 1880's that had variations around it. Clock companies often offered 20-30 variations around a basic model, so no two clocks looked exactly alike.

It possible someone in Erie, PA possibly a local jeweler arranged to purchase a quantity of Ingraham clocks and put his own label in them and made it appear that he manufactured them. It was a common practice beginning in mid 19th century that clock retailers arranged to purchase clocks from various CT makers and overpaste their label over original or have only their label in them.

Andy Dervan

 

[ejc544]

Andy,

The Antiques Clocks Price Guide lists a sale in 2000 of an Ingraham NIAGARA pressed oak case (C.1915) that does not resemble my clock in the least. I don't know if this is relevant to my inquiry or not. What do you think?

Can you address the bushing that to me looks like a metal button that had been soldered into place. There is a second such device on the back of the movement. Is this a practice that you have seen before?

Thanks for your help.

Ed

 

[Thyme]

I have just completed rejuvenating a dark walnut kitchen clock that I had acquired about five years ago. There are a couple of puzzles that I wish to present for discussion:

1. The information on the movement does not jive with the case, but indeed it may not be a marriage of two clocks. Let me explain. Since my photographic skills are nil, let me assure the reader that the movement is clearly stamped E. Ingraham & Co., Patd. Oct 6, 78, Nov. 11, 79. BristolConn. The case, see attached photos, appears to be complete with its original glass that clearly states Niagara Trademark. The label, which is incomplete, indicates that it is an 8 day Niagara. The name of the company has been obliterated, but it does say Manufacturing Company followed by Erie, Penn.

Strange! Perhaps not. A little bit of googling revealed that during the 3 rd quarter of the 1800’s the states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Connecticut were each vying for the rights to an area at the base of Lake Erie. After much debate, the Federal government gave the county to Pennsylvania so that it could have dual access to large bodies of water.

Could the case have been made in the contested territory and then shipped to Bristol, Connecticut where the movement was inserted?

2. Behind the movement, written on the backboard is some scribbling in
pencil followed by 11-14-02. Can I assume that this is a repair
date?

3. The repairs of faulty bushings are interesting. If you look closely at the bushing adjoining the count wheel, you will notice that it appears to be a button shaped piece of metal. A similar repair appears on the back of the movement as well. Both items are affixed to the movement with solder. Is repair typical of the early 1900’s or does my clock belong in the infamous Hall of Shame?

As always, your comments are deeply appreciated.

Ed Cypress

Hi Ed,

I read everything you said and I believe you are quite knowledgeable, well versed in repair, and that you don't really need any help. To me, I sense some element of disingenuousness present in your query, but that's just IMHO. (Most folks who are genuinely seeking information post photos that are not blurry and usually have a different attitude in their approach to asking.) So I'll refrain from further reply. Maybe others will 'bite', but that's their choice.

Good luck with your clock and your queries.

 

[LaBounty]

Hey Ed-

Your photos are a bit blurry but I believe the "metal button" you are referring to is a Rathburn bushing. Unfortunately, this is a common practice and not considered professional. It is a shortcut which is done without disassembling the movement and is designed to relocate the pivot to compensate for wear.

Rathburn bushings are an indication that severe wear is present and the movement is in need of a complete restoration.

Hope that helps!

 

[ejc544]

Thyme,

I don’t know how to respond to your comments about my inquiry. I readily admit that my knowledge about the identification and repair of clocks is limited. Whatever knowledge that I have gained since taking up my hobby a few years ago has been gleaned solely from the resources of the NAWCC. I read most postings to the message board regarding clocks, take notes on the advice given and follow up on my projects. I acquired a lathe a few months ago and through tapes that I have borrowed through our library, have begun to have limited success with it. I have been researching information through the library constantly. Yes, I need to focus on my photography skills.

However, to date my inquiries have been received with a certain degree of patience and considerable thought. Your remarks are cruel.

Ed
-> posts merged by system <-
David,

Thank you for the information about the Rathburn bushing. I did notoice that when I took the movement apart to clean and repair it, another bushing was needed. Naturally, I inserted the standard brass type commonly used today.

Ed

 

[Dave B]

My first reaction on reading the original question was, "Rathburn bushing". I found the photo too fuzzy to be of help, but I agree wholeheartedly with the most erudite Mr. Labounty in that they are definately not kosher. Also, getting the old solder off is a royal PITA. I don't envy anyone that chore.

 

[ejc544]

Sorry for any confusion about the identification of the Rathburn bushings. After David put a name on it, I researched this board and found a great deal of information about these scoundrels. They will come out within the next few days and will be replaced by standard brass bushings.
Ed

 

[Scottie-TX]

THYME; You have indeed hurt Ed's feelings. Your response was cruel. I know that wasn't your intention but;
I commiserate with Ed. I know how it feels to be ridiculed - rejected.
I believe all here except you regard his question as sincere - genuine.
Not everyone is Ansel Adams. Not everyones' photography skills are superb.
We overlook that.
THYME, please:
Please refrain from condemning and ridiculing other respected members.
We'll respect you more for that and not want your feelings hurt either.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Ed: Don't take serious offense at Thyme. His manner can appear brusque, but he is knowledgeable and in general helpful and friendly.

I wonder whether the "Erie, Pa.," on your clock label is the remaining portion of a lebel refering to Charles Adams of that city. Ingraham made a Liberty clock for him in about the 1880's. The thread here contains additional information. Although your case is different from the one shown in the linked thread, it might well be a later (or earlier?) model made for Adams. Something to think about.

As an addendum: Can you post a picture of the label?

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Let me add another possibility. It may be a special make for the Lovell Manufacturing Co., Limited, of Erie, Pa. It is known that Ingraham did make another clock for that company, called the Meridian. This link provides an example of one.

Somewhere around page 4 of this earlier thread is more about the Meridian, if you are interested.

More food for thought.

 

[ejc544]

Stephen,
Great information. Too bad that the label is incomplete and I cannot see who the manufacturing company was. I can only discern Erie, Pennsylvnia.
Ed

 

[Thyme]

Ed: Don't take serious offense at Thyme. His manner can appear brusque, but he is knowledgeable and in general helpful and friendly.

Thank you, Steven.

Ed,

I will try to explain a few things and perhaps even help you. Yes, my manner is brusque at times. However, perceived "cruelty" is mostly in the eye of the beholder. In our current modern times, any comment that is less than purely positive and upbeat, including telling someone to help themselves before asking others is often considered "cruel". (I was also "cruel" to my daughter in telling her to use a dictionary instead of my telling her the meaning of a word. Today she has a degree in English.)

Your theory (#1) struck me as very imaginative, but also contrived. You are aware that the clock is not an Ingraham Niagara model. Ingraham was primarily a case maker (as opposed to other makers who got into clocks by being predominant in brass manufacture, for example.) Either your case was made by some local manufacturer to accommodate a movement that was purchased wholesale from a major manufacturer (Ingraham), and they called their assembled creation "Niagara" - or the clock is a 'marriage'. Unfortunately, asking your questions and providing no useful photos that illustrated what you were asking could only invoke speculation; on most e-mail lists that approaches what is called 'trolling' (because the question is essentially unanswerable.) Based on subsequent responses I do believe your questions are genuine, and I hope I've helped you in some small way.

(#2) is obviously a repair notation. (#3) was asked and answered.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Stephen,
Great information. Too bad that the label is incomplete and I cannot see who the manufacturing company was. I can only discern Erie, Pennsylvnia.
Ed

I suspect Lovell, but can't be sure, of course. A picture of the remains of the label might help. In the earlier thread I posited that Ingraham might have made that clock for Adams to commemorate the dedication of the Statue of Liberty in 1886. I still like that (course, I could be dead wrong ). Perhaps Lovell wanted its own commemorative clock, as a premium for its customers. Perhaps Adams wanted one too. And perhaps the association of the U.S. Brig Niagara from the War of 1812 added impetus to have a Niagara model. Then, too, might also be that Ingraham made the Niagara ca. 1888, to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Battle of Lake Erie (Perry's "We have met the enemy and they are ours, etc.", as opposed to Pogo's "We have met the enemy and they are us.").

Hard to say. I'll ask old Elias the next time I see him.

 

[Chris]

Ed:

I did a quick search on Antique Clocks Price Guide as well and found two clocks on there that have the identical "Niagara" trademarked glass. The second one is very close to yours in style; the upper crest is different, but the base and sides are spot on. I don't have a subscription to them at the moment, so I don't know who made it. Often, that site does not have helpful info other than the pictures.

I did another search and found the same clock as the Price Guide and it's a Lovell Mfg clock with a greenish paper label pasted inside the case. So, I think we can say it's a Lovell.
-> posts merged by system <-
Have you read what Lovell made? From what I see, they made rat and mouse traps, clothes wringers, etc.

Here's an excerpt from their website:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-2]The founder of Lovell Manufacturing was Melvin Newton Lovell, (1844-1895). A carpenter by trade, he established his home in Erie in 1865 where four years later, he secured patents on several household articles. The same year, he and Franklin F. Adams began a partnership F.F. Adams & Company to produce wood products such as stepladders and manual washing machines. Their small factory was at 14th and Cherry Streets, but the endeavor did not last long and his three stepbrothers created Lovell Manufacturing Company at 523 and 526 French Street. Initially, the company produced only spring beds but by 1882 the company expanded in incorporate, producing other types of wire and spring produces including their mouse and rattraps. As the same time they subsumed Lovell’s installment-loan company and embarked on the chain store business with installment loan payment, with locations in New York City, Chicago, Buffalo, Philadelphia, Boston and many others. By the last 1890, they had more stores than Atlantic and Pacific Tea Company and Jewel Tea Company.

[/SIZE][/FONT] In 1883, the Lovell’s contracted the first segment of their factory at 13th and French Streets. The small building encompassed the wood and iron working operations, japanning, tempering, varnishing, and storage and shipping areas. New product lines included corn Sheller, dynamos, folding wood chairs and 65 employees manufactured hammocks.
There, years after Lovell’s death in 1895, the company filed a friendly bankruptcy with its creditors which was amicably resolved. The company emerged from financial difficulty, reincorporated and took charge of even more of its own productions to avoid supplier charges that had led to the crisis.
Over the following two decades, the company retrenched, closing its retail stores and concentrating on a more limited range of production with more vertical integration of operations. The physical plant expanded with a three story annex that cover a half block in length This increased the wire working storage, varnishing, and wringer operation and added a machine shop and dry kilns as well as expanded lumberyard storage. The company was now able to produce 300 wringers per day and was booming on domestic demand by World War I. After the war was the companies’ final construction surge in which the major portion of the existing facility was contructed. By 1921, the building more than doubled in size, filling the entire oblong block. The company had a rubber department for wringer rolls, and iron department and a large new facility for assembling their new line of power-operated wringers. Wringers would later be manufactured from cast iron then, later cast aluminum rather than wood. The wood-working department found new product lines in hockey sticks, other sport items and in clacks, the wood-soled sandal used by workers in coke ovens. The quality and character of Lovell products kept the company afloat during the depression despite two or three bad years.
World War II curtailed metal wringer production. Despite their small machine shop, Lovell nonetheless engaged in wartime production of unspecified parts. Employment escalated to 1,000 people and their productions soared to its highest levels. Immediately after the war, employment fell somewhat to 800 as they resumed wringer production. The company turned out 1 million units per year using 35-40 tons of sheet, strip and bar steel per day. In the roller department, Lovell consumed 8,000 pounds of rubber daily and 4,500 board feet of lumber. The company manufactured the chassis and working parts for winger as well. In 1948, they added electric dryers to their line (although not under the Lovell name) to hold Lovell’s place, as automatic agitator washers threatened to displace Lovell’s traditional line.
In August 1967, Lovell because a subsidiary of Patterson-Erie Company, a local investor-controlled holding company. Patterson-Erie planned a new production facility in Lake City, 18 miles west of Erie. The Company has ceased to be a consumer producer and instead was manufacturing capital components for other industrial concerns. Their largest division, metal fabricating and appliance, was fully integrated for precision work in forming, fabricating and all metal finishing processes. By the late 1960’s Lovell made metal cabinets for humidifiers and portable televisions, plus assemblies for computers, office copiers, and other office machines.
The Company continued operation at the 13th and French location until 1974, when as Patterson-Erie, it moved to its new headquarters. The original building remained vacant for six years until 1980 when a number of tenants began to occupy sections of the facility including a management corporation office, an electronics firm and a realtor. In 1990, a small revival of the building’s original purpose occurred when Quinn Machine & Tools became a tenant. In October of that same year, Steve McGarvey purchased the entire building and is currently leasing space to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, which includes the Department of Public Welfare, Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, Office of Unemployment Compensation Referee’s Office, Blindness and Visual Services, Office of the Bureau of Workmen’s Compensation, St Martin’s Learning Center, Team Pennsylvania -Career Link, and the Erie Book Store, along with many residential tenants who call their state-of-the-art apartment at Lovell Place…“home”.

 

[Thyme]

Ed:

I did a quick search on Antique Clocks Price Guide as well and found two clocks on there that have the identical "Niagara" trademarked glass. The second one is very close to yours in style; the upper crest is different, but the base and sides are spot on. I don't have a subscription to them at the moment, so I don't know who made it. Often, that site does not have helpful info other than the pictures.

I did another search and found the same clock as the Price Guide and it's a Lovell Mfg clock with a greenish paper label pasted inside the case. So, I think we can say it's a Lovell.
-> posts merged by system <-
Have you read what Lovell made? From what I see, they made rat and mouse traps, clothes wringers, etc.

Here's an excerpt from their website: (etc.)

Chris,

I am not doubting your veracity or your source material, but part of doing credible research lies in providing references (links) to wherever you found the material which you are quoting.

Please provide links to the pages cited at A.C. Price Guide.

I did another search and found the same clock as the Price Guide and it's a Lovell Mfg clock with a greenish paper label pasted inside the case. So, I think we can say it's a Lovell.

Again, please provide links to what documentation you are citing.

Nothing speaks louder or more convincingly than providing proof.

Update: You are correct, and the proof is substantiated. Here is the link: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3815106

However I could not find the source at A.C. Price Guide. If you have it, Ed might appreciate seeing it.

 

[ejc544]

Stephen and Chris,

Thanks for the detailed information about the Lovell Manufacturing Co. of Erie, Penn. It was very interesting and sheds some light on the conflict between the E. Ingraham stamp on the movement and the partial label within the clock that indicates it was manufacturered in Erie, Penn.

I managed to take better photos of the glass on the front of my clock. Note that it says "Niagara". Chris, is this the same design as those that you saw in the Antique Clock Price Guide? I subscribe to that program and would like to know where I can find the examples that you refer to. The closest that I come to it is a single listing under the Lovell Manufacturing Co. It states, “C.1900, Lovell Manufacturing Co., Erie, Penn, "MERIDIAN" round drop wall calendar in outstanding original condition. This clock was made for Lovell by E. Ingraham & Co of Bristol, Conn (and their name is on the dial).”

By the way, the Rathburn bushing that I truly found so unusual can now be clearly seen next to the count wheel. It and its cousin on the back of the movement come out tomorrow.

Ed

 

[Scottie-TX]

EXCELLENT pix, Ansel!

"So I'll refrain from further reply. Maybe others will 'bite', but that's their choice."

 

[Thyme]

EXCELLENT pix, Ansel!

Scottie,

You are quoting me, but the comment doesn't seem to fit.

This mystery was solved by several people who each contributed what they knew, and were inspired and determined to find the answer.

 

[Scottie-TX]

Yep. You're right!
Doesn't seem ta fit.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Ed:

I did a quick search on Antique Clocks Price Guide as well and found two clocks on there that have the identical "Niagara" trademarked glass. The second one is very close to yours in style; the upper crest is different, but the base and sides are spot on. I don't have a subscription to them at the moment, so I don't know who made it. Often, that site does not have helpful info other than the pictures.

I looked again and found what I believe Chris means. It is the Niagara made by Waterbury, est. for year 1890. The crest is totally different, but the sides and door seem very close if not identical. The crest obviously threw me at first look. Whether this is a Waterbury case with a different top and a "married" Ingraham movement; or whether Lovell bought both case and movement to order and put them together themselves, I can't say for sure.

Kudos to Chris on the Lovell info. I wonder if F.F. Adams and Charles F. Adams are related?

 

[ejc544]

Scottie, et al,

Thank you one and all. Now that I have discovered the portrait setting on my camera, I can assure readers to this message board that future photos will be clearer. I have also learned about Rathburn bushings and feel confident that I can replace them and insert the correct type of brass bushings.

My initial hypothesis about the origins of Erie, Pa. were taken from the Internet, but indeed had no bearing on the case preparation of my clock. As others pointed out the Lovell Co. of Erie, Pa. most likely obtained the finished clock from E. Ingraham of Bristol, Conn. and inserted its label into the case. Perhaps they sold the clocks or gave them away as sales promotion items.

In any event, Thyme’s citation of http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3815106 was right on the money.

This was a true learning experience.

Ed Cypress

 

[Thyme]

As others pointed out the Lovell Co. of Erie, Pa. most likely obtained the finished clock from E. Ingraham of Bristol, Conn. and inserted its label into the case. Perhaps they sold the clocks or gave them away as sales promotion items.

Either they ordered the entire clocks wholesale and put their name on the label, or they may have made their own cases and used Ingraham components. Apparently clocks were a hot market in the late 1800's; it is likely that it was similar to the computer boom of recent years, where small makers, assemblers and resellers would market their products under private brands.

I don't know whether you noticed, but yours has an original fancy glass, and the one seen in the auction site has only plain glass. It's basically an ordinary kitchen clock - but the elaborate glass sets it apart, and probably made it desirable. For all we know these may have been marketed locally, sold as Niagara Falls memorabilia.

The more one digs, the more one might find:
http://cgi.ebay.ph/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260440462319

I'm very happy for you that it is "legit" and we all learned something in the process.

 

[Chris]

Thyme:

Regarding your request for verification of my cited source for Lovell Mfg., I googled "Lovell Manufacturing" and one of the first sites to come up was a site offering office suites, business space, etc. in the original Lovell Mfg. building on French St.

http://www.lovellplace.com/history.html

I used liveauctioneer.com to find the Niagara clock. In searching the A.C. Price Guide site and liveauctioneer, I eliminated the Lovell aspect and searched directly for "niagara" (feeling that word would more likely be used in any description of the clock).

 

[ejc544]

Thanks Chris

 

[RJSoftware]

That's better..!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBDF04fQKtQ

RJ