Is this a Patek mouvement?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Telelucă Cristian, Feb 9, 2020.

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  1. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    #1 Telelucă Cristian, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    Is this cylinder mouvement form the 1880s a genuin Patek ? Cause I have doubts. Thank you
    IMG-20200209-WA0000.jpg IMG-20200209-WA0001.jpg
    IMG-20200209-WA0002.jpg IMG-20200209-WA0003.jpg


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    IMG-20200203-WA0005.jpg IMG-20200203-WA0006.jpg

    IMG-20200203-WA0007.jpg IMG-20200203-WA0008.jpg

    IMG-20200128-WA0002.jpg
     
  2. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    I don’t know, but the only maker that would install early stemwind assembly with pendant at 10 o’clock I can think of is... Patek ;)

    I think - though - they kept XII under the pendant on the dials, leaving the second hand sub dial off the ‚normal’ position, so not sure about the dial.

    eager to see other opinions of someone ‚into’ high end watches :)
     
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  3. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Thank you. I've seen these ebauche before but with moustache lever, not with cylinder and not made for a hunter case but for an open face. Maybe both case and mouvement are genuin but I think the mouvements position is rather strange
     
  4. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Early Patek can have cylinder escapement. In fact - cylinder escapement was not that 'inferior' at the time, and Patek was not yet that 'superior' not to use them as well. Vacheron also made cylinder movements, nothing strange about that to me.

    If toy search the web - there are some examples of early Patek stemwind watches with seconds subdial odd. One has a very similar culinder movement, but with different plates' layout... can be genuine...
     
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  5. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Thanks again. I know that PP made pocket watches with cylinder escapements as well as Vacheron did back then, but I didn't see something like that. If you have some links to those exemples please shere.
     
  6. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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  7. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Thank you so much. Stunning pieces.I've noticed the unusual placement of those subdials, but in my case, the subdial is in its natural place. Just that the dial is twisted like it was made for a left handed person
     
  8. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    That’s why I wonder if the dial is original... it could have a dial with second hand at 8 - just depends on how the dial is made. Not like a black dial with yellow markings is common, though...
     
  9. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Thisis completely consistent! I think you have a very rare watch! (Jealous!)
     
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  10. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    If you put this at at auction, Patek will likely buy it for their museum. We cannot discuss valuation here but in general, this watch will bring 5 figures at auction. This is a true winner. Amazing!
     
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  11. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Teleluca, from what is the case made? Is it silver with a niello finish?

    As for the dial, at the risk of seeming ill-informed, it is possible that the dial is completely conventional, and just installed wrong? Because the watch currently does not have a second hand, is it possible that the dial is just rotated out of proper alignment?
     
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  12. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Wow, thank you. Soon I'll give you more details of the watch. These week I'll receive it
     
  13. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    The case is made from 18 k gold and I think its hand engraving. I don't have the watch right now, I'll receive it this week. As it concerns the dial I have the same toughts as you have, that is installed wrong
     
  14. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    Notice the position of the 4th pinion in the movement - it is where the sub dial is (not opposite the pendant). Maybe it’s just a missing hand, maybe the pinion is broken or maybe this watch never had a second hand and the dial is replaced (but then why would someone allign it like that?)
     
  15. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    I don't understand what you are all talking about. The 4th wheel and crown make a right angle in the customary direction. The dial is rotated. The 4th wheel's extended pivot is probably broken.

    If I am missing something please tell me!
     
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  16. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    These thing always "slip around". My bet is is that this is all legit. (hunch...)
     
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  17. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Are we seeing the same pictures? If you look at the movement, the 4th wheel and the pendant make a right angle, like a normal hunter case movement. That means the seconds bit goes in the normal place.
     
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  18. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    I agree with Ethan. It does look like silver nielo with gold accents. I found this on-line that is a few serial numbers away 51007. 99.jpg
     
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  19. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    this one was made in 1870. 382_4.jpg
     
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  20. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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  21. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    55k serial made for the pope. 32.jpg
     
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  22. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    #22 pmwas, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    So you say it is a rotated snap-on dial? I looked at the movement many times and thought the pinion is off-6, but I guess it was an illusion created by the fact the cuvette is not opposite the pendant like the front lid...

    Now when I look, yes, it looks like you’re right :)
     
  23. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    At first I wasn't too convinced it was a Patek. Then I looked at the winding wheel key-square, the quality of the build, and that case...I'm with Jeff just on instinct and limited experience with Pateks. That watch is pretty spectacular. There's a lot that says "Patek" about that watch. Probably the nicest cylinder watch I've seen. Congratulations. I hope your transaction works out well. Special watch, IMO. Cheers.

    I too am jealous of this one. And I didn't think I'd ever say that of a cylinder. I know, I'm a lever snob. :rolleyes:
     
  24. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    MrRoundel thank you. I had a lot of doubts if this watch is or isn't a Patek, but youre words changed my mind like Socrate did with those who talk to him 2500 years ago. I am greatfull to you all and at soon as the watch arives to me, I'll show you more pictures. Thank you all again
     
  25. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    #25 Telelucă Cristian, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2020
    So, the watch has arrived. The dial was twisted indeed and the pinion is broken. The case its silver as I can see no marks yet. Maybe the engraving is made from gold. But lets see the pictures
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    20200217-154656.jpg
     
  26. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    I'm lovin' that case a lot. And t he chain is excellent as well. I always loved those claws incorporated into chains. You don't see that many. Good luck getting it back up to snuff. It would be well worth getting that arbor fixed, etc.

    The fact that it looks to be a stem-wind seems unusual to me for a cylinder escapement. I'd guess that it must be a late production cylinder. And I wonder how that stem is held to the case/movement? I don't see an obvious detent screw on the movement or a retaining screw on the pendant. I'll look again to see what I'm missing. Regardless, congratulations on getting this very interesting watch. Thanks for the images. That pierced case is amazing. Cheers.
     
  27. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

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    The early Phillipe patent is a bit awkward and if I recall correctly from the couple I've seen you need to remove the dial and then take off some of the winding/hand set components from the movement before you can release the stem and take the movement out of the case.

    This is a really beautiful watch. I think the decoration of the case might be applied gold over the top of the silver, which has been oxidised to create the dark background. Not sure if anyone's mentioned it yet but it is also missing its front bezel/glass.
     
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  28. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Two photos take under the dial. The serial number which is on the dust cover is also on tge front of the mouvement. The serial is 51611
    20200217-203238.jpg 20200217-203310.jpg
     
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  29. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    That's really high quality work under the dial as well. And that matching serial number, while not surprising, is what you want to see. I take it that the hour wheel is stuck with the dial? I notice that the hour hand was present, so it should be there. It's missing from your movement picture. Don't lose it!
     
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  30. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    #30 Telelucă Cristian, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2020
    Yes, it was stuck with the dial. Now it looks like that
    20200217-204306.jpg 20200217-204317.jpg

    20200217-204325.jpg 20200217-204800.jpg
     
  31. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    stunning patek
     
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  32. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Thank you Jeff. What are youre thoughts about it?
     
  33. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    The previous owner was a guy from Timișoara (Romania) whose grandfather was a soldier in World War II. On the box that came with the watch its written Silberthau&Co Munchen which was a jewish retailer for jewels and watches. The company lived his final days under Hitler's regime. I don't know if that box is the original box of the watch. But the romanian army lead by gen. Antonescu fought alongside german army. Maybe that watch was a gift from a german soldier, or maybe was founded on the battleground. However it may be, it's clearly related with the alliance between romanians and germans in wwII
     
  34. Philip Poniz

    Philip Poniz Moderator
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    It is an unusual Patek. It was made in 1875 and unlike the majority of Patek Philippe movements at the time, this one was made from scratch in the factory. In other words, the ebauche was made by the company. It is not the first caliber made entirely by Patek Philippe, but one of the earliest. In later years, in the early 1890’s, the ebauche for the caliber was also made by Ambroise Duret, a rare Geneva ebauche maker*, who made at least four more calibers for Patek during 1890-1895. In the early 20th century the ebauche was made also by C.M. Colonnaz, a convenient supplier, having his business in the same building as Patek Philippe. A few Patek Philippes with Colonnaz' 19S took part in the Geneva Observatory Timing Contests.

    The majority of those movements are fitted with the 8th Philippe winding/setting system, which is an improvement of his 5th system patented in France in 1860. Its characteristic feature is threaded lower part of the stem.

    Patek launched the caliber in the late 1850’s and designated it for their high precision watches including many of the highest precision with spring detent chronometer escapements and free-sprung helical balance springs**.
    The movement was designed for a hunting case but they are also found in open face cases, such as an exceptionally rare No. 31,090 with perpetual calendar and equation of time.

    The biggest surprise of your watch is the fact that it is one of just a handful of calibers 19S*** with an inexpensive 10-jewel cylinder movement.
    The case is similarly unusual. It is difficult to determine the exact design just from photos but it appears to be of oxidized silver overlaid with gold pattern. Does it have any marks inside the back cover? I know of only two other similar Patek Philippe cases (housing this caliber) of which one is in the Patek Philippe Museum (with a lever escapement). The Museum (then just a Private Collection) purchased it very early in their patrimony quest (Inv. P-51).

    The blackened case with a black dial suggest that the watch was ordered by someone in mourning.
    Here is another example of a Patek mourning watch, this time for a lady.

    PP 8''' ca 1860, Mourning.JPG

    I hope it helps,
    Philip Poniz
    ____________________________________________

    * Geneva watchmakers, although having had a few ebauche makers, specialized in finishing movements – making them accurate and aesthetically pleasing. The movement architecture was developed in Geneva to the highest degree.
    ** For instance, Nos 47371, 47372, 47372, 47373 47681, 47682, 47683, 66326, 90533, 90534, 90538 and many more.
    *** The figure comes from a drawing of the caliber I found in the 1970’s when Mr. Henry Stern let me look through (and copy) some of Patek Philippe archives.
     
  35. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    Mr Philip thank you so so much for youre wonderfull informations. The case has no marks but I'm sure that is silver filled with gold. The watch needs restoration. Otherwise the mouvement it works very well. Its a beautiful beautiful pocket watch. Yet, I'm not sure if the retailer was Silberthau&Co from Munchen. As for the restoration, I think I'll send the watch to Patek to maintain it's original appearance, yet I don't know the costs involved. Can you give me some advice? I can't thank you enough
     
  36. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Expect a breathtaking bill. In 1984, I sent my Patek Philippe wristwatch to Patek Philippe for a routine servicing. It cost about $1600, and that was around 35 years ago.
     
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  37. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    I'm thinking to send an email to Patek, give them some pictures and ask for an estimated cost. But I have a lot of doubts that they will offer me those informations befor I'll send them the watch
     
  38. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    the case has plant and hunting motifs: a bird, a horn, a sword, a spear. It's an outstanding craftsmanship
     
  39. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    This sure is a BEAUTIFUL watch!!!
     
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  40. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    #40 Telelucă Cristian, Feb 23, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
    This is the watch with lever escapement which mr. Philip Poniz was talking about. This one is at Patek Philippe museum
    Album — Postimage.org

    12241522f-zoom-v1566991963111.jpg 11228585c-zoom-v1558190018940.jpg s-l1600.jpg
     
  41. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    I sent a message to Sothebys asking for an evaluation and they replayed me that:

    "Dear Teleucă Cristian-Alexandru ,


    Thank you again for taking the time to submit details of your item to Sotheby's. Our team has carefully reviewed the photographs and information you kindly provided.


    After thoughtful review, our specialists have determined that this item falls below our selling threshold. Unfortunately, we are unable to value your property or offer it at auction. For this item, we recommend that you contact a local auctioneer to discuss alternative selling options.


    We sincerely appreciate your interest in Sotheby's. We regret not to be of more help in this instance and hope that you will contact us again if we can assist with other property or requests in the future.


    Kind regards,


    Sotheby's Consignment Team"
     
  42. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    I guess Sotheby's doesn't want to sell a fixer of any type. Look, you have a genuine Patek Philippe museum quality watch. It's hard to get much better than that in the watch world. OK, if it was karat gold, higher grade movement, and running perfectly it would be better. But as you can tell, anyone commenting here would be proud to own it, running or not. It is within relatively easy striking distance of being a well running watch.

    I suggest you contact Patek and ask them what they'd suggest, and that you might be interested in selling it. See what they offer, information-wise or money-wise. I don't have any experience with dealing with, or in, Pateks, but it's worth a shot. If they ask you how much you want, tell them that it's been difficult to find comparable sales, but that you know of it's rarity, and the existence of the other most similar watch in their museum.

    You might also post something on the watch appraisal thread here. Then you can alert Mr. Ponz that you have paid the minimal fee for such. Maybe he'll share some more of his knowledge with you regarding prospective value. Then again...maybe not. Such expertise doesn't come cheap. Good luck.
     
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  43. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    MrRoundel thank you. I don't want to sell it. I am a watch collector from Romania and I bought that Patek for myself. I just wanted to know its value for...my wife :)) who doesn't understand what makes this particular watch so special and why I paid about 600 euros for it :)) I want to restore it and I'll contact Patek for that. I know that will be expensive but I don't know if other way is better than that.
     
  44. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Sotheby's does not want to sell items they believe will bring less than $10,000. What they told you is that they believe it will bring less than $10,000. Unless they want to sell it they are not going to give a free appraisal, except at a special event.

    If they believe it will bring over $10,000 they do not care whether it runs or not.
     
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  45. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Nothing less than $10,000? Dang cork-sniffers. ;) (A term used in some collector circles that denotes perfection/value-snobbery.) That said, jokingly of course, maybe if it was solid 18K and running well it would be more likely to hit their policy limit? But as I said, I don't know a lot about Pateks. What I do know is what I see common (Non-cylinder, yes.) movements going for on daBay, etc. This is a braggin' rights watch, IMHO, so maybe Sotheby's is undervaluing. Or more likely I suppose, I am? But again, this is a braggin' rights watch. And Pateks, more than other brands out there, seem to consistently hold and increase in value at a higher level. And I think for what Mr. Cristian paid, there will be no question of that. I'm glad that he plans on keeping it. His wife should be happy that he makes such good purchases. Perhaps he should add it to his pre-nup. :D Cheers.
     
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  46. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    I understand now. Anyway, I would have been greatful if they had told me why my watch will not attract strong interest: because its condition or because they considered that isn't a genuin Patek or not a rare one.
     
  47. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    You are in for about $700 US. Very few pocket watches go over $10,000 now. Sothebys sells a lot of differnt high value items, many over $10M US.

    You will do better with an Auction Hiouse that specializes in watches. Two I suggest are Uhren Muser Watch Auction: Estimates and Consignments - Dr. Crott Auctioneers

    and

    Cortrie

    Information - Cortrie Special-Auctions for Watches and Jewellery in Hamburg

    Both are German. I have bought from Muser and know people who buy from Cortrie.

    There are others and my mention does not mean they are the best, only they are best I know and they are relatively near to you. If you were in the US I would recommend watch some American auction houses.

    BTW I was in Romania in November and saw many beautiful places.
     
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  48. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

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    MrRoundel, what a tonic way of speaking . I thank you again for youre kind words. I'll never forget that cork sniffers term (you can't see the woods because of trees). Those guys from sothebys sell patek pocket watches for less than 10000 usd. For exemple see that item https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2019/watches-online-8/patek-philippe-gold-open-faced-keyless-watch-made?locale=en
    Now I'm thinking they perhaps belive that my watch is not a genuin Patek or that is in poor condition.
     
  49. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Sometimes the experts need to confer with higher experts, if they exist. Case in point: I once had an rather rare International Watch Co. pocket watch. Once I identified it as an IWC, with the help of the NAWCC librarian/author, the late Kathleen Pritchard, I sold it as such. One of the known experts in the world bought it from me. Years later I posted an image of this watch on the official IWC message board. Someone who was arguably the IWC expert on the message board said, "That's not an IWC". I informed him that he was incorrect. In his defense, he was really an IWC wristwatch expert, not pocket watches. Later he posted the he was contacted by IWC company as well as by a man who may have been the expert who bought it, and was told that it was indeed an IWC. He was surprised and happy to learn something new. So there you have it.
     
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  50. Telelucă Cristian

    Telelucă Cristian Registered User

    Feb 9, 2020
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    Thank you Dr Jon. I'm glad that you found beautiful places in my country? Which places did you visit?
     

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