Is this a Lenzkirch?

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by MQ32shooter, Mar 7, 2013.

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  1. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Just picked up this little wall clock last night. Movement and gong not marked, however it looks almost identical to a Lenzkirch movement I have in a miniature box clock. Nice little wall clock with an open escapement, heavy pendulum with the adjustment in the middle, about 27" tall. Did they always mark their movements? If not a Lenzkirch, let's hear what you think it could be. Thanks
     

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  2. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    I think so. Lenzkirch. Except hands.
     
  3. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I just got a copy of George Everett's book, "Lenzkirch, the Unsigned Story." GREAT book! Over 15 years of research into learning how to identify unsigned Lenzies. I would recommend it to anyone who loves Lenzkirch.

    I would ask a couple of questions: Is there another number possibly a 24 or 26 behind the crutch? Take a look at the inner surface of the plates near the bottom. Is there a single digit 1-6 stamped in there anywhere? Is there one latch on the case door or 2? Take a look at the corners of the side glass supports. Are the butted together or are there mitered? These are some of the first things to look at to see if they are Lenzkirch. There is much more info in his book and using that as a guide I have identified several clocks as either yes or no.

    This might be and since I have started looking, I find many clocks look basically the same.

    BTW, it should have a number behind the crutch, the inside of the plates should be stamped, mitered corners on the side glass, and 2 latches. This is not a guarantee, but calls for a closer look.

    Walt
     
  4. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Great info Walter. First off, there is one latch on the door, the corners are mitered. There is a number at the bottom of the front plate between the barrels and it looks like an 8. The serial no. on the back of the movement is the same serial number that is on the dial plate, if that's what you call it.
     
  5. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    #5 Albra, Mar 7, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    Greetings shooter,

    No, I´d say your movement is not a Lenzi. Look here, this is a marked Lenzi with open escapement.

    Werk.jpg Zifferblatt.jpg

    There are several differences, especially the count wheel and the escapement. I guess, your clock was made in Austria.

    albra.
     
  6. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Does the style of the movement indicate approximate date of manufacture?
     
  7. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    Hi MQ,

    Now that I am back where I can look at the book and your pictures at the same time.... Firstly, I am still learning, I am no expert, all of what I am relating is what I can see in the Lenzkirch book I mentioned above.

    No, they didn't change styles often for many years. There were some differences over the years but a #26 looked pretty much the same for a long time. Based on the serial number, it looks like it would be from about 1857 if it is genuine.

    If you move the crutch to the side, there should be a #26 stamped in the back plate. If not, it is almost definitely not. The tail of the cock for the anchor arbor seems to extend too far to the left, i.e. too close to the post for securing the plates. Look more closely at the single digit stamped on the inside of the plate. If it is an 8, no Lenzie. Number should be 1-5. After a little more reading, number 6 in the run was left blank. Is the one latch centered on the door or is at the top or bottom indicating there may have been another one.? There should have been another one if it is original.

    The good points: The support for the escape wheel looks correct. There are 26 teeth on the escape wheel. The mounting bracket looks like one used by Lenzkirch. The thumb screws used to hold the movement on look correct. The pendulum looks similar to one in the book. The mitered corners is a plus.

    There are too many factors to go into in depth here. I would say that this just might be a Lenzkirch. The final determination might come down to tooth and leaf counts, etc. This will hopefully get you to the point where you know if you need further investigation or not.

    Walt
     
  8. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Walter, thanks soo much! I'll look at it more in depth. Man, it sure would have made it simple if they would have stamped all of the movements.:)
     
  9. Richard T.

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    #9 Richard T., Mar 7, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    Also in Everett's book is what I think is a fairly easy way to tell.....Disassemble, remove the springs from the barrel and the last four or five numbers of the serial number will be scribed, by hand, in the bottom of the barrel. I will post a photo of one that I have that has been confirmed as Lenzkirch.

    I agree with the post above that the escape wheel/verge/pallets do not look like the Lenzkirch ones that I have seen. Additionally, open escapement Lenzkirch wall clocks are not that common. See below

    There are also several other factors which are outlined in the Everett book.
     

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  10. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    Yeah, but just think you would be missing out on the "thrill of the hunt" if it was that easy.:whistle:
     
  11. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    Hi Richard,

    Sounds like you also have the book! Lots of stuff to try to keep straight. Stampings, punch marks, scribe lines........ Part of the reason I say maybe are the clocks on PP 180 and 195. Those open escapements look very similar to MQ's. I still say the big thing will be the #26 on the back plate if it is there.

    I like this trying to figure things out stuff.

    Walt
     
  12. Scottie-TX

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    I don't know what it is most probly because I don't collect names but it certainly is a very elegant clock and I LOVE open escapements. I don't recall ever seeing one in a clock of this style. It certainly seems to mirror Lenz' simple and not overly adorned styles.
     
  13. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I agree with you, Scottie. Ya gotta collect what you like. I also enjoy learning about what I am collecting. I would love to be able to talk to the clocks and find out what they know, what they've seen and heard. What was life REALLY like in Wherever 117 years ago.

    When I select a clock, I don't to it for the name but I may be after the quality that name represents. There are only so many clock dollars available, I usually try to get something that has a certain (perceived) historical importance or level of quality. And then there are the kitchen and adamantine clocks that I get just because I like them! Somewhat inconsistent but, hey, it's not always logical.

    Walt
     
  14. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    In this case, I will have to agree with Albra, yes.

    I also have Everett's fine book, which I cherish.

    But, again and again, I must point out, the informations there are indices, but not always evidence for unmarked
    Lenzis.
    Please keep in mind that is was part of the scheme, that other clocks should be considered Lenzkirchs, finally leading to the
    1883 Lenzkirch Erklärung (announcement). Also please consider, that other German makers offered first quality clocks too
    and that these movements actually all were copies of the original French types, thus they were look-alikes from the start.

    Another fact is Lenzkirch dating per SNs, which was pointed out, for example by Stevenson, that there can be 15 or more
    years between "presumed production dates".

    Everett's book is a swell guideline and it shows many indicators, but not all. So, one shouldn't get all too euphoric about it.

    Yes, there are unmarked Lenzkirch movements. But not very many and far fewer, than may be proposed by collectors.
    Or, to say it with other words, in form of a quote by the president of Lenzkircher Uhrenfreunde, "To stay on the safe side,
    stick to marked clocks. If it's stamped a Lenzi, one can be sure, there's Lenzi inside."
     
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  15. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I agree. And I will admit that I am a little like a kid with a new toy since I got the book.

    The entire premise of the book reminds me of the old saying, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck." We can tend to focus on verifying that a clock is a Lenzkirch and it can be just as important to discover it is not. Everett even says in the book that the preliminary things we have been looking at are not sufficient to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that we have a Lenzie. But, if some of the important ones are missing, like the model number stamped on the back plate, it can indicate that it probably is made by someone else. If it looks, walks, and swims like a duck, but it barks, it probably isn't a duck.

    The only way to be 99.9% sure is to tear the clock down with the book right there and compare the indicators one at a time and see how things stack up.

    It is a grand hunt we are on to learn and grow in our knowledge of clocks and what makes them tick.
     
  16. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Thank you Jürgen.

    One should say it clearly and loud: Japy is the original and the Lenzkirch only a copy. Every collector suspects his clock might be (or must be!) a Lenzi, but no one asks, whether his movement was made by Japy.

    Since the French clock industry has not yet been studied, there is such a misunderstanding.

    In reality we know straight-Japy has sold many movements without any logos not only in France, but also in Germany and especially in Austria-Hungary, too. Very many of these Japy movements were assembled in Germany or in Austria in cases, but therefore the movement is still not German or Austrian, but Japy. But unfortunately no one examines the movements of Japy until today.

    albra
     
  17. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    WOW, thanks for all of the input folks! So, sounds like even if I tear into it, I still might not know what it really is, other than a very nice movement, unusual open escapement dial on a wall clock, in a cute little case. I'm actually OK with all that!:)
     
  18. LenzkirchFan

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    You have a very interesting clock! I am going to show you some pictures that we think definatelly IS a Lenzkirch. It is not an open escapement like yours and that might be part of the difference. The movement is a 24 serices movement with the 24 stampled on the back plate where Lenzkirch always stamped their movements. The serial number is 45639, with a brocott escapement which is what we would expect on this serial number. The hands on the dial are also known to be a Lenzkirch style. Your hands appear to be replacements. That style would not have been used on that low serial number. You will notice on this movement that the pins that hold the back plate on are turned at a 45 degree angle where yours are not. Does that mean yours is not a Lenzkirch? Not necessarily. Lets look at all the pictures of this Lenzkirch and compare them to yours. I will also post pictures of another with a close serial number.

    Steve
     

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  19. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Here is another Lenzkirch movement. It is a 24 series movement with the 24 stamp in the normal Lenzkirch location. The serial number on this movement is 51944. It is not an open escapement like yours but compare all of these pictures to yours. Notice that the posts that hold the back plate on does not have the pins turned at a 45 degree angle. At least 3 of them do not. The bracket appears the same as well as the pendulum bob. The cases are similar.

    The one thing that bothers me about yours is that the series number is not stamped on the back plate. I would expect a 24 or 26 to be stamped there but maybe they did not do that on the early open escapement movements. If I owned your clock, I would have to tear the movement down and examine the plates and gears for the stamps and file markings that George Everett tells about in his book. If it has those same marks then I would be convenced that it is a Lenzkirch. With what I see here, I also think that it is a Lenzie but I would want to look for those file marks and stamps on the gears.

    Enjoy your open escapement clock!

    Steve
     

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  20. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Great info and pictures Steve. Except for the very bottom of the case and the open escapement, mine looks just like yours. Guess I'll need to tear into this thing in order to verify what it is. I did not realize there were so many Lenzkirch fans out there. Evidently Everett's book is the holy grail for Lenzkirch collectors. Thanks to everyone that contributed. I love this message board!
     
  21. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    #21 soaringjoy, Mar 9, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
    Thanks for the additional pictures and infos, Steve.

    Perhaps, MQ's movement will reveal some marks in its "guts".

    All in all, however, it is my personal belief, that are far more unmarked non-Lenzis around, than
    unmarked Lenzis.
    During that period of time, say from 1870 to 1890, not only Lenzkirch had problems with other
    products being sold as theirs. It happened to Gustav Becker and to a couple of Swiss brands too.
    The published Warnings and Announcements were intended for the trade, thus for the professionals.
    This leads to the assumption, that there were not very obvious differences between Lenzkirch and non-Lenzkirch movements
    - perhaps even both came from the same factory in France (!) - thus having the same dots, numbers and scribbling.
    How frightening would that be...?

    Researches have just started to gain speed on this topic and there may come up something new that
    actually nobody wants to hear, because, sure, an unmarked Lenzi is of much better quality than an
    unmarked Japy Freres, or an unmarked Carl Werner (who he, anyway?);)

    Not that I really care about it. I'm a kind of allrounder, not specialized on Lenzies or whatever.
    However, I am again surprized, that most unmarked Lenzkirch clocks with low SNs show up in the
    States. There might well be lots of logical explanations for that, yes.
    I do bear in mind, an old inscpriction on the back of a BF Lackschild, made by Kern of Gütenbach
    and sold in the States in the 19th century: "Dutchmen laugh when Americans buy."
    Again, by Stevenson, who, to a certain point, opposes Everett in his 2007 NAWCC Watch & Clock Bulletin
    article Springtime in Lenzkirch. With, BTW, a very honorable mention of Mr. Steven Green.

    What I am trying to achieve here is that people shouldn't consider everything, that has appeared to be
    true up to now, to be the absolute truth for all eternity to come.
    History and especially European horological history has had to be rewritten a couple of times and it's
    still on the move.

    To sum it all up, I don't really understand the fuss about unmarked Lenzies at all - which, periodically
    lead to "life or death discussions" especially over here in Germany.
    Kind of the same thing is now happening with Beha clocks and in the end, it leads to things like
    this label from a clock being offered in a past US auction. :D
    Fälschung Lenzi02.jpg
     
  22. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    It is not, that we have no information about the beginning of Lenzkirch. See the description in "Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980" (Second Edition 2012)

    In short:

    Eduard Hauser, the co-founder of Lenzkirch, went ca 1843 to Switzerland and France to learn industrial clock making. We don´t know where he went, but most likely he learned at Japy. Back to Germany he founded 1846 a small workshop and created stamped gear blanks for the Black Forest cottage industry. But the money was running out and Hauser was forced lenders to include in its operation. In 1851 the joint stock company Lenzkirch was foundet. Besides stamped clock parts also ready movements of France were bought and mounted in French and German clock cases. The first clocks were delivered to Russia, particularly because Russia was a very good customer for clocks in French style.

    It was not until 1867 in Lenzkirch own movements were developed, however, and until the German-French War 1870/71 of Lenzkirch French movements and clocks parts werde related.

    That means:

    - Lenzkirch was in the beginning a factory for clock parts and clock cases, but not for movements of clocks.
    - Clocks of Lenzkirch can contain up to 1870 French movements, and
    - all movements of Lenzkirch are more or less 1:1 copies of French movements.

    Further statements will be possible if the movements of Japy are investigated. These studies are, however, still pending.

    Even more German clock manufacturers have copied these French movements. Lenzkirch was followed by the Carl Werner around the year 1882, later others. Also G. Becker movements I've seen in this French style.

    The history of making clocks must not be rewritten, but must be examined in part yet. Particularly has been overlooked that in France as early as the year 1750 (!) tools have been developed for the production of stamped parts clocks. And we must therefore assume that the French were the first to start mass production of clocks worldwide.

    albra
     
  23. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    #23 soaringjoy, Mar 11, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
    Most of the information we have and especially some updated informations are available in German only.

    As can be seen on this thread, books with nice layouts, spicked with pictures and "quasi infos" are quickly to be considered
    a "Holy Grail", yes. The internet then provides a multiplicator, much faster and much more intensive than any articles published
    in clock and watch specific magazines.
    So Everett's book quickly became a major Lenzkirch reference, because it was (and is) the best around in English.
    Articles such as Stevenson's follow-up "Springtime in Lenzkirch" did not have that impact to the "general public" and even more recent
    finds in German archives, such as "Tritscheller's production lists" are barely even known in the English speaking countries, let alone
    multiplied through publishing.

    Stevenson, a linguist and teacher at a German univerisity for years, was one of the very few American horologists being able to speak, read and
    interpret German. Indeed there was a lot to be read and interpreted about Lenzkirch and others. He worked hand in hand with the major German and
    American researchers.
    Alas, Stevenson will write no more.

    So, again, to come to a point, what I'm trying to say is, the scribbling of a SN in a barrel is not, alone and for itself evidence of
    any quality. Anybody could do that, anytime. And not only Lenzkirch workers did it.
    Or, would a French spring in a barrel be a clue for an early Lenzkirch?
    Not really. French springs, especially Peugeots, can be found in all kinds of clocks from almost all periods, simply because Peugeot was a
    major and most reknown spring maker.
    Would a clock have to be considered a Lenzkirch, simply because it has a Lenzkirch movement - and these were assumingly not sold "loose"?
    I think not.
    There is ample proof that Lenzkirch along with others of course sold "loose" movements. Some of that evidence has even been posted here
    on the MB. Search for "carpe diem" or "E. G. Zimmermann".

    Oh, one more thing, just in case nobody noticed:

    The "Lenzkirch" label, shown above is a fake.
    Lenzkirch never had a branch in Furtwangen, nor did they use Lorenz Bob's label, oder? :???:
    In this case, it was all a matter of what people wanted to see and wanted to believe. ;)
     
  24. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Wow guys, great discussion. I just noticed that my adjustment wheel in the pendulum is running vertically, like one of the examples noted and the other is running horizontally. Is that any kind of indicator??
     
  25. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    MQ- pendulums in most cases were not made by the manufacturers themselves, but by suppliers. Thus your pendulum indicates, most likely it was made by annother supplier.

    We can not proof, who made your movement until all these French movements are investigated. But a comparison of your movement with movements of C. Werner in Villingen let me think, your movement might be a Werner. And definitely your clock is very rare and collectable! Congrats!

    albra
     
  26. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I believe Everett's book does not pretend to be a "Holy Grail" to all things Lenzkirch. And, as enthusiastic as I am about it, I do not consider it so. Are there other pieces of evidence around concerning the history of the company that are equally and maybe even more accurate? Yes.

    That being said, we can all agree that the way that we tell if any unmarked movement is from any particular factory/clockmaker is by comparison. That is the main focus of Everett's book and that is where I find the real value.

    Hypothetically, if you start with 500 clocks, 250 stamped with a trade mark and 250 unstamped. Examine them all closely, take them apart, inspect them, measure the diameters of the wheels, count the teeth, count the leaves on the pinions, look at assembly marks, and a bunch of other factors, and find all of the trade marked clocks are identical within a few changes for variations between models. We have a standard of maybe a dozen or so identifiers to go by. Now, we follow the same procedure with the unmarked clocks. Of the 250 unmarked clocks, 17 have the identical wheel size, tooth count, hole layout, and so on for ALL 12 or 15 of the parameters we have determined to be points of caparison in our marked clocks. Is it not safe to say that these 17 clocks came from the same factory that made the 250 that are stamped with a trademark, especially if no other trade marked clocks from other makers have been found to date that have ALL the same identifiers? Doesn't it also follow that the remaining 233 clocks came from "somewhere else?"

    It's not just a couple of squiggles on the clock or in a barrel. It is a series of consistencies between the clock in question and the standard with a trademark that allows us to conclude whether or not an unmarked clock is indeed a Lenzie, or any other maker for that matter. And, as Jurgen so aptly pointed out, the procedure should say NO to many, many more clocks than it says YES to, and it does. Also, it is equally important to be able to identify a non-Lenskirch, especially if someone is attempting to charge you Lenzkirch prices for a mis-identified clock.

    Whether you clock turns out to be a Lenzkirch or not, as Albra said, "your clock is very rare and collectable." I would ad my congratulations as well.

    Walt
     
  27. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Hi Walter,

    You spoke very well, but it's not that complicated. Because the movements of Lenzkirch, Japy, Werner etc. are produced in series and consist of stamped parts, we need some measurements and particularly fotos of the arrangement of the bearing bores, in order to compare known with unsigned movements.

    But just photos and exact measurements of several clocks are required: original of Japy, but also of Lenzkirch, Carl Werner, Kienzle and a few others.


    BTW:

    The "Lenzkirch Declaration" of the 1880ies ("not to sell any unmarked Lenzie") was addressed to the company Carl Werner, because Werner sold his movements to the great annoyance of Lenzkirch without any logo, or with the logos of retailers ...

    albra
     
  28. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Yes, this is an interesting discussion! I can't say thatI disagree with any of you because all make good points. I am in agreement with Walt in that according to George Everett, the more indicators that you find on a particular clock, the more chances that it is a Lenzkirch.

    I think that my research can help us in the long run. The more photos of Lenzkirch clocks and their movements that I have, the more we will learn. As I go through the serial numbers, I can see when changes are made to anchors and other parts of movements. If I see a movement that has one style of anchor for example and movements on each side of the example's serial number have a different style of anchor, then a red flag goes up. Or if something else is different than the other clocks then it is suspect. We can compare movements with those that have close serial numbers and see how they match up. I have to tell you, the more information that I acquire, the more that I prove that Everett is correct. He may not be 100% correct but at least he put a lot of thought into what he wrote.

    I have found a few movements on the internet that I thought were Lenzkirch and after they arrived in the mail, I found that they were not. One was a very heavy early movement with brocot escapement that looked very similar to early Lenzkirch movements. It was French and a very high quality movement. But, early Lenzkirch movements were French so they should look similar. I collect Lenzkirch clocks but I appreciate quality no matter who made it.

    By the way Jurgen, I have found that label on the back of at least two clocks in the past. Whoever used that trick did it many times! There is also an individual out there that owns a Lenzkirch trademark stamp and I have a couple of examples of movements that are clearly NOT Lenzkirch that have the pinecone Lenzkirch stamp. Not everyone is honest. And that is what Everett was going for when he wrote that book. Be informed and lookout for fakes.

    One more thing Jurgen, my name is in the front of Everett's book too! I'm friends with George and (the late) Doug! ;)

    Steve
     
  29. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    I know, Steve.... :D
     
  30. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I looked back in the Bulletin archives and found the 2007 article "Springtime in Lenzkirch" that Jurgen mentioned above. Great reading, well worth the time! Part of what I got out of it was that the case is closed, yes, Lenzkirch did sell a second quality movement, plenty of evidence of that fact. From what it says in the article, it looks as if the second quality movements had all he manufacturing quality of the #1 movements, it is just that they were not finished as pretty. Maybe like what we used to call "blems" (as in blemished) here in the tire business. What I am wondering, is what is the significance of the 2 versus the 2Q which is stamped on the second quality movements? From what little I have seen, it almost looks like the "2" movements were seconds that followed the original serial number system and the "2Q" movements started a new numbering sequence. This is just a guess. Does anybody know or is this chapter yet to be written?

    Walt
     
  31. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    The problem is, we have no reliable information about these "2Q" movements. They just exist. Therefore we can only guess.

    But that can be fun too ...

    albra
     
  32. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    Well, as long as we are throwing meat in the pot, why not complicate things a little more?

    I have recently been doing a bunch of browsing on "that" auction site and I started saving listings after the auctions were over to use to get a rough idea of what things were worth. I have several categories and, as i am looking through the listings, if I find one that looks interesting I add it to my watch list. I don't bid very often and after the auction is over I just save the listing to my hard drive to look at later if i want.

    One of the categories i have is, you guessed it, Lenzkirch. So I figured I would go through and look at the pictures and see how many 2 and 2Q movements I could find. I decided to put it in a spreadsheet and here is what I have found so far.

    I have abut 110 listings.

    Of those, I identified 19 as second quality movements. I was surprised there were so many. Fourteen of them were labeled "2." Three were labeled "2Q." Here is the fun part, 2 were labeled "B." Has anyone heard of the "B" identifier before?

    Eleven were model 26. Three were model 24. One was model 41. One I couldn't see the model number, and 3 had NO model number. These 3 had the second trade mark stamp but no model number.

    Of those with no model number, 2 were "2Q" and 1 was a "2."

    The "2Q' that had a model number was a 24.

    Of the "B's" one was a 24, the other a 26.

    All were spring driven movements and all had the second trade mark.


    What does it all mean? Who knows, but as Albra said above, guessing can be fun too.

    See what you started, MQ-------LOL-------:coolsign:

    Walt
     
  33. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Yes Walter! Youhave that exactly correct. They did have a separate numbering sequence for those 2Q's and some of the 2's but not all of the 2's. I know a lot about them from my studies. I'm going to write an article about them that I think many of us will find interesting and possibly enlightening. I just have to find time to do it and get it submitted. I am encouraged to get it done since I see that there are more interested in the subject.

    Steve
     
  34. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    I can't wait to read it! Do you information on the "B's" as well?

    Walt
     
  35. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Walter,Steve,

    I do not want to be misunderstood, and I don´t want discourage anyone from very interesting investigations. But two comments:

    Any industrial production knows the problem of the different dimensions, but there are several ways to handle these differences. I guess, these "2Q" movements of Lenzkirch were more part of a “marketing concept” than anything else. It appears that some other manufacturers also have offered temporary "2Q" clocks, but in principle such concepts have failed and it was indeed applied by Lenzkirch only temporary.

    What customer want to be constantly reminded that he has acquired a "2Q" clock??

    That´s what I meant by my comment that we have no reliable information, when and why Lenzkirch "2Q" –movements has offered, - and why Lenzkirch stopped this concept.


    albra
     
  36. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Ok, guess I need to pull up a chair and get some popcorn?:cyclops:
     
  37. Walt Wallgren

    Walt Wallgren Registered User
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    The article in the 2007 Bulletin, "Springtime in Lenzkirch," supplies some pretty convincing data that Lenzkirch knowingly produced movements that they referred to as second quality. Second quality does not mean second rate. I wish I could get my hands on the 2 articles refereed to in treatise that were originally published in "Clock" magazine. I would love to read them as well!

    We can all agree that there is much that remains to be studied and discovered when it comes to Lenzkirch as well as many other clockmakers.

    What I am absolutely sure of is that I have seen in person and/or in pictures movements with the extra identifiers of 2, 2Q, and B. Exactly how it all fits together remains to be seen. But, hey, isn't that part of what horology is all about? Aren't we all on a grand voyage into the study of time and timekeeping?

    Walt
     
  38. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Albra, how many clock buyers ever would have even seen the clock's movement to notice the 2Q designation, let alone realize what it meant? Would these have been like "factory seconds" or refurbished returns? Have these movements been compared with other movements to see a quality difference?
     
  39. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    Harold, yes, these "2Q"-movements are one of these unsolved Lenzkirch-questions. And there are several more. But what is your explanation?

    Talking about movements of Lenzkirch, it would be good, we knew more about the models of Japy. Otherwise our voyage into the study of timekeeping will have of a wrong direction.

    albra
     
  40. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    If I remember it correctly, there was no difference in quality of the "2 Q" movements.
    They omitted a couple of production steps, especially plates and barrels polishing.

    Any researching to be done on clocks and their manufacturers is a time consuming project, involving travels
    and many contacts at the sources of archives, libraries, etc.
    So, true research is a quest and a hobby all by itself. Often enough, it can take years, just to solve or identify
    a label, not even speaking of certain production procedures or insider's knowledge of a company.
    One of the best and most recent examples is the E.G. Zimmermann "Carpe Diem" mark, which involved MB members
    in the States, in Russia, the Netherlands and in Germany. And keep in mind, that was merely a "simple maker ID"(!)
    The research led to the Sept/Oct 2012 Bulletin article "The Iron Vienna"; Stevenson's last.
    Here's how it started out on the message board: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?72875-Iron-front-Vienna-style
     
  41. Albra

    Albra Registered User

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    #41 Albra, Mar 18, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
    Soon there will be new answers:

    I have just heard that for some time investigations are carried out together with the "Lenzkirch Clock Friends", an association of clock collectors, on the history and the development of Lenzkirch. These results will be published in autumn this year. It is to be expected a lot of new results of Lenzkirch factory and Lenzkirch clocks.

    albra
     
  42. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Thanks for the tip, Albra!
    But, uh oh, that sounds like trouble for the chaps like us, who have to multiply it.
    I can't wait to do it! :excited:
     
  43. Pyroman

    Pyroman Registered User

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    Hi guys!


    Your discussion is very interesting. Albra, many thanks for good news. I'll be waiting your results...

    If you posting early (I guess) Lenzie movements, I decided add from my archive some photos of clock movements with Brocot escapement and markings as movement in post #1. Especially note the shape of numbers "4" and "1" on movement without strike with s/n 41899. "4" more then other digits and 1 less than other and has short "tail". And digits "7" and "0" on the movement with strike and s/n 38705. Digit "0" more and "7" less than other digits. Both movements have same hands as movement from post #18 with s/n 45639. Note this movement already has digits with same dimension. Third movement without strike has s/n 48194 with normal digits and form of plates as movement with s/n 41899.
     

    Attached Files:

  44. Pyroman

    Pyroman Registered User

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    #44 Pyroman, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
    ...And another 2 spring driven movement with Brocot escapement. Both have marks with 24-series and 26-series stamps and have s/n 51940 and 53279. Enjoy! :D
     

    Attached Files:

  45. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Thank you, Igor.
    What also has to be noted is that far more Lenzkirch clocks went "East", i.e. to Russia, than westwards,
    say, to England.
     
  46. Pyroman

    Pyroman Registered User

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    Yes, Jurgen. I agree with you. Especially early Lenzie movements. I have photo of (I guess) early movement with 26-series stamp and s/n 7595. Same s/n stamped on back top side of dial.
     

    Attached Files:

  47. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Well Igor, the trouble is, that nobody seems to know anymore, just exactly when Lenzkirch actually
    started to make their own movements. Up to that point, they were indeed merely finishers or refiners
    of imported French movements. That is an often neglected fact. Not that it's bad, the movements were
    of finest quality, it's just different.
    Another fact that is often forgotten, is that the French were the ones that could make springs and all
    of the early German clocks had imported French springs at least.
    It was then Lenzkirch who figured out how to produce the springs themselves, giving them an advantage
    on the German market for some time.
    So, there are very many tiny pieces that make up the "Lenzkirch mosaic".
     
  48. Pyroman

    Pyroman Registered User

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    #48 Pyroman, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
    Thanks, Jurgen. I know about French origin of early Lenzkirch movement. About springs. You know that I have some Lenzkirch mini-regulators with movement type I and II. I note that spring in type I is "softer" than in type II. And for winding this spring require less force than for spring in type II and match with force that need for winding spring in Japy Freres mini-movement.
    Since autumn 2011 i seeking information about Lenzkich clocks and make up the "Lenzkirch mosaic" in own head.
     
  49. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Good to hear, I like that. :D

    For instance, I do not understand, why someone says: If it has French (Peugeot) springs, it's an early Lenzkirch.
    Now, what if a clock has been repaired with French springs that the repairer had in stock?
    Does that make the clock an early unmarked Lenzkirch? :cool:
    Too many people out there just don't think, when they have that certain look in their eyes. :whistle:
     
  50. Pyroman

    Pyroman Registered User

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    But, guess, I know :D. Someone read too much Everett's book, especially page 17 with Peugeot spring photo. And they doing as Walter Wallgren wrote
    I think, if movement has a spring with inscription "Peugeot", it means that spring has French origin, no more. But, if movement has some another additional signs (marks, features) that pointing on early Lenzie, I can do ONLY assumption about this. I agree with you
    But I understand feelings of this people who seek and find their unsigned "treasure" and understand how this book helps them to discover it.
    When I bought own 1st Lenzkirch clock 31 August (in day when Lenzkirch company was established :)) 2011 year with 2nd Lenzkirch logo, I was in a state of euphoria. But since I bought first unsigned mini-regulator #2 in November 2011, obvious to me things, as Lenzkirch markings with 1st and 2nd Logo, were not interesting for me. You note this, if read topic "Post your Lenzkirch clock here", where I posted unsigned Lenzkirch clocks. Because I don't know Germany language, I started "hunting" for info (books, magazines, catalogues) in English language, especially for Everett's book. And after more 1 year seeking I bought this book with the autograph of George A. Everett! Now I have some information (not only for unsigned movements):

    Books
    1. "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story" by Georg A. Everett.
    2. "Vienna Regulators" of Lenzkirch and Lorenz Bob" by Dana J.Blackwell
    3. "Lenzkirch Clock Factory, Winterhalder & Holfmeier Clocks" by Karl Kochmann
    4. "Grossuhren 1880" von Prof Dr.R. Muhe

    Magazines
    1. "Clocks" March 2002. Part 1 of Article "Restoring a Lenzkirch" by Ian Beilby
    2. "Clocks" March 2002. Article "Showtime" by D.K.Stevenson. (Not about Lenzkirch)
    3. "Clocks" March 2003. Part 1 of Article "Lenzkirch update" by D.K.Stevenson
    4. "Clocks" April 2003. Part 2 of Article "Lenzkirch update" by D.K.Stevenson
    5. "Clocks" December 2003. Article "Lenzkirch, trademarks & 2Q" by D.K.Stevenson
    6. "Clocks" February 2007. Article "Lenzkirch by the numbers" by D.K.Stevenson
    7. "NAWCC Bulletin" February 2007. Article "Springtime in Lenzkirch" by D.K.Stevenson
    8. "Clocks" August 2008. Article "A movement for head or hand" by D.K.Stevenson

    Catalogues
    1. 1855 year (source: "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story")
    2. 1870's (source: "Vienna Regulators" of Lenzkirch and Lorenz Bob")
    3. 1883 (source: "Grossuhren 1880")
    4. 1891-92 photocopy (source: unknown, additional "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story")
    5. 1893 photocopy (source: unknown, additional "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story")
    6. 1901 (source: "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story")
    7. 1903 photocopy (source: unknown)
    8. 1895-1905 printed by www.epubli.de (source:unknown)
    9. Part of catalogue Autumn 1921 (source: unknown)
    10. Part of catalogue Spring 1922 (source: unknown)
    11. Catalogue #356 photocopy (probably 1920's) (source: unknown)
    12. Catalogue #357 photocopy (probably 1920's) (source: unknown)
    13. Catalogue #358 photocopy (probably 1920's) (source: unknown)
    14. 1929 (source: "Lenzkirch Clocks.The Unsigned Story")

    Even with so much information, I can say as Socrates:"I know one thing: that I know nothing". I agree with Albra that Japy is the original and Lenz - a copy. I think it is
    necessary to search for documents that prove relationship between Lenz and Japy. Additionally, like Everett, we can (I guess should) make a comparison of parts and components both manufacturers. I already bought for this operation mini-regulator of Japy Freres in wooden case as case of early Lenzkirch mini-regulators ;) I do not promise that the results of this study will be soon, but I hope so.
     
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