Is this a JUF ?

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by pahel, Jan 29, 2019.

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  1. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    Hi all,
    my latest purchase of a 400 day clock after a long time of "abstinence" appears to be a JUF (according to its backplate) however there is a "CB" stamped on the front below the dial which seems to express a BUF product?
    Is there anyone among you experts who could tell me the manufacturer and if the pendulum is original to this clock?
    also after some cleaning an lubricating work I have it running fine now with a nice 360 degree rotation, however its still running too fast (about 3 DSC00747.jpg hours/day)
    I've installed a new suspension but I dont know it's strength, may be someone give an advice wich one to take.
    Thanks in advance for helping
    regards pahel DSC00750.jpg
     
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  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Oct 25, 2010
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    Hi pahel,

    Yes you have a JUF clock that was sold by Badische. I've recorded several examples exactly as yours so I would say it is all original. Early 1900s.

    There is no exact spring for the pendulum you have, so you will need to thin the spring to slow the clock. There may be additional weights beneath the disk that can be removed if you have a thinner spring.

    Very nice!

    Eric
     
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  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    The sample size is small, but my records indicate that most JUF clocks with the DRP/USP stamped back plates and no serial number went to Badische or Bowler & Burdick.
     
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  4. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    thanks for your immediate reply..
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Eric, my data includes 29 examples of JUF plates with the DRP/USP stamp and no serial number, which were made between about March 1904 and the end of 1906 after which JUF added serial numbers. Of these, only 7 clocks are stamped with BUF logo, and only 4 with B&B either on the back plate or on the dial. During that period it appears that Hauck and Würth were the main suppliers to B&B; actually JUF picked up sales to Huber from March 1904 onward until Kienzle began supply to Huber in 1909. I have no data showing JUF sales to Huber after 1909.

    Possibly of interest, JUF was selling clocks with the BUF logo stamp as early as 1902 to March 1904 with their version of the Patent Angemeldet back plate. After 1906 JUF continued with the BUF trademark only to about Feb. or March 1907. After that I have no data showing that JUF continued sales to BUF but could have been possible. I don't recall ever seeing a clock with a JUF movement to have a BUF logo on the dial.

    Huber sold to BUF from 1900 to end 1903 with their Patent Angemeldet back plate, also with the BUF logo stamp on the front plate. Huber sold to B&B as the exclusive supplier from 1898 to 1900, from 1901 to end 1903 both Huber and JUF sold to B&B with their respective Patent Angemeldet back plates. After March 1904 and until end 1906 JUF did supply B&B but as a minor supplier. As noted above Hauck and Würth were the major suppliers to B&B from 1904 to 1906. Hauck stopped supply to B&B at the end of 1906, from 1907 Wurth continued sales to B&B until they ceased production in 1910. Kienzle started sales to B&B in late 1907 and became the major (only) supplier to B&B from 1911 to 1914.
     
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  6. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Oct 25, 2010
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    John,

    My list has 27 JUF DRP/USP clocks with no number. Of those 13 have the BUF stamp on the front plate, 7 are B&B, and the remaining 7 are otherwise unmarked or unreadable, so I guess my assumption was incorrect. I have recorded 1 numbered JUF, 50878, with the BUF stamp on the front plate. None of the clocks have a BUF logo on the dial.

    Eric
     
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  7. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    hi john+Eric,
    thanks for your discussion which is very interesting and informative and gives me better knowledge of these clocks.
    This is the second "smal dial" clock with the BUF logo I own now (the other one was determined as to be a PH. Hauck), I feel, that these early clocks were made of good quality, e.g. massive turned brass in pendulum and pillars, well made trimming and other features wich in my opinion make them somewhat more distinguished compared to post ww2 clocks.
    john says, that these clocks were made between about March 1904 and the end of 1906, is there any information given, how many clocks in total have been manufactured in this time ?
    regards
    pahel
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Pahel and all, for JUF I have estimated production using extrapolation of data from the time they were making serially numbered clocks for Harder, then Harder Patent clocks for F.A.L. DeGruyter, up to 1907 when they started stamping serial numbers again at 50001. From 1907 to 1922 production was easily followed, then they stopped using serial numbers late 1922 or early 1923; after that their production is very difficult to estimate. For the earlier periods my estimates show that production was as follows:

    1882-1888: There was a rápid increase from 536 in the first part-year (May-Dec) 1882 to 1,736 in 1884. Then a rapid decrease to only 523 at the time serial numbers were discontinued late 1888.
    1889-1895: Production slowly increased from about 600 clocks to about 1,300 clocks annually by 1895.
    1896-1899: Andreas Huber entered the market in 1896, and having exclusive use of the Harder patents, shut JUF out of the U.S. and British markets until these two patents expired by the end of 1899. JUF production dropped by more than half to about 600 clocks per year through 1899.
    1900-1906: With the Harder patents expired JUF reentered the U.S. and British markets to the extent that Huber shut down their production in early 1904, with JUF becoming their main supplier. Production rose from about 1,200 clocks in 1900 to about 11,000 clocks in 1906.
    1907 and later: 1907 production was 13,000 and increased to a peak of 15,000 per year in 1909 (confirmed by serial number dating). After that production started a steady decline with competition from Kienzle, GB, Junghans, and Huber (from 1912 lantern pinion movements). By 1914 production was 7,000, then stopped about April 1915 for WWI.

    A key premise used for this study was that JUF produced a total of 50,000 clocks from their first Harder production in May 1882 until the end of 1906. What that means is that JUF "did" maintain production and sales records (a must for a business to operate soundly), and when they decided to resume serial numbering at the beginning of 1907 it was at the point their cumulative production from 1882 was 50,000. The numbers above fit this premise very closely including the rise and fall of Huber from 1896 to 1904, the entry of GB, Hauck, and Würth into the market in 1902-03, Kienzle's entry in late 1907, and Junghans in 1908. There truly was a boom in sales of 400-Day clocks from 1900 to 1910, from only 6,000 total in 1900 to almost 44,000 in 1910 with all makers combined.
     
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  9. pahel

    pahel Registered User

    Jul 26, 2008
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    John,
    thanks for that detailed and comprehensive statement, very interesting and informative to learn, that the amount of manufactured clocks until 1907 was "just" 50,000, I've estimated a lot more as there seem to be a considerable number of pre wwI clocks on the market. Assuming, that only 50% of the originally produced items have survived damage, total loss and decay over the decades, this is remarkable in my opinion an makes the remaining clocks so much valuable.
    Thanks again, appreciate your skills and shared information on 400 day clocks.
    pahel
     
  10. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Pahel and all, that 50,000 number is for JUF clocks ONLY, covering a period of 24 years, and does not include other makers. As far as total clocks being made, the annual production for the year 1910 for all known makers combined is estimated to be about 44,000 as I mentioned above. For the period 1907 to 1911 my estimate is a total production of 199,500 clocks for all makers combined. Interestingly enough, during this 5-year period the largest production was by GB at 72,800 clocks, JUF second at 65,000, and all the others at less than 20,000 each.

    Also, the survival rate of these clocks is much less than 50% as best I can determine. The further back you go the lower the survival rate even for very elaborate and beautiful clocks such as those produced by J. J. Meister. My guesstimate by period follows:

    1841-1880: Crane 30%, Terry 20%, Hile <1%, Lenzkirch (for Jehlin) 0%, Harder own plus Willmann <5%, GB cylinder 20%.

    1881-1900: Harder Patent 25%, GB cylinder <10%, L. Furtwangler Söhne <1%, Hanau Urenfabrik 10%, Steinheuer & Rabe 20%, Metzger <1%, Meister <5%, Schnekenburger (including Carl Bauer) 15%, Huber 20%.

    1900-1914: All makers, 20 to 30%.

    1915-1940: All makers, 25 to 35%

    1941-1980: All makers, 25 to 45%

    Atmos clocks are a special case, evidently due to their quality and long running without maintenance, it appears the survival rate is substantially higher than for other torsion pendulum clocks. For the Reutter Atmos (1930-1938), about 40% appear to have survived even with broken motors. For the Atmos II (1939-1950), possibly 65%. For later models the survival rate appears to be as high as 75% through the 1980s.
     
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