Is this a Hamilton case(Wadsworth)

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by musicguy, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    I recently bought a 1925 Hamilton in what I hope to be a
    Hamilton signed case(not in my hands yet). Unfortunately, there were
    only a few poor photos, and they were not great photos(I have permission to use them).
    I believe I've seen this logo before, maybe Wadsworth
    but I'm not sure. Every once in a while I believe(dream)
    that I just purchased the greatest watch I've ever purchased.
    Most of the time I come back to Earth rather quickly.
    I won't mind if you tell me that it's not Hamilton
    (even though I believe it is now) :)



    [​IMG]


    Rob
     
  2. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The logo resembles part of the Hamilton Crest seen on presentation cases on the cuvette.

    View attachment 353106

    Sorry I do not have a better picture available this moment.
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    I'm hoping that this is a presentation case(the movement inside should have one), but there
    weren't any photos of the cuvette.


    Rob
     
  4. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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  5. Larry Treiman

    Larry Treiman Registered User

    Jan 18, 2009
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    WHAT IS THE MOVEMENT (size, grade and serial number):???::???::???: (Yes, I"m aware that I'm shouting......out of frustration!)


    Larry <]:>(
     
  6. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    Here's the story......

    I found a listing for a broken 17j Hamilton(no size listed) and when I looked at the
    photographs I realized that it was a 12s 23j 922.

    I emailed the seller and asked them:
    "I just want to confirm before I bid, that the watch in the photographs is the same
    watch you are selling. I'm not trying to insult you, just asking."

    They responded, "
    The one and only, Yes it is"

    so I bid on it and won.

    If the watch I get in the mail is a broken 17j Hamilton
    then I will return it. Hopefully it's the beautiful 922
    23j Adjusted 5 positions watch in the photographs.
    But I don't wan't to post a photo
    until I get it. The seller has 100% positive feedback and thousands
    of sales.

    Serial number of Hamilton 3003779

    Rob
     
  7. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I find your post a little disconcerting, you say the watch is for, as you say "a broken 17j Hamilton". Yet you then go on to say if that's what it turns out to be you are going to return it, why?? This is what you bid on, what right do you have to return it:???:
     
  8. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    #8 musicguy, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    When I bid on something, the photographs of the item are a very important part of the sellers description.
    In fact, I would never buy a pocket watch online without a photograph of the actual watch i'm buying.
    I asked them if this watch was the one in their photo(in the listing), they said yes.
    So if it's not the same watch in the photographs with the same serial number, where am I wrong?

    Rob
     
  9. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    The descriptions and photographs go together, your are bastardizing the system for your own gain in my opinion. I thought as N.A.W.C.C members we had a code of ethics, apparently I am wrong. Please tell me your Ebay user name via PM so I can make sure you do not bid on anything of mine, as you are the exact type of Customer I would never want.
     
  10. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    #10 Ethan Lipsig, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    All of us see mistaken eBay watch listings. Most of the mistakes are deliberate over-touting, but sometimes a seller doesn't know what he or she is selling and under-touts it. Is it unethical to buy a mistakenly under-touted watch at a bargain price? For example, for every 100 sellers who claim a gold-filled or gold-plated watch is solid gold, there is one seller who describes a solid gold watch as gold-filled or gold-plated. Do we have an ethical duty to tell the seller of his or her mistake, or maywe take advantage of it?
     
  11. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    Bila I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm not on this forum to fight with anyone.
    I felt good that I contacted the seller 2 days before the end of the listing
    to confirm that the watch in the photo is the actual watch they were selling.
    The seller sells tons of watches and clocks since 1986. They understood.
    There is no deception here.

    Rob
     
  12. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    Nor am I here to fight either, but when someone makes statements like you have, I see red. We see discussions all the time about that Auction site and bad Sellers and Buyers. If your comment in any way is the way you conduct yourself when Buying/Selling, then we are going to be having the same discussions about bad Buyers/Sellers for a long time.

    As for deception, there is on your part, via your statement about returning the watch if it was not a Grade 922. I can understand someone taking a punt on something that they think might be good but then have the audacity to then want to return the item because it wasn't what they thought is a pretty poor act. Whether you do it or not really is not the question, but you clearly display an intent which brings your reputation into question.
     
  13. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    I have a photo of the movement, I know the serial number.
    It's not a guess, or a shot in the dark. And, I confirmed it with the seller.

    I think you do not know all the facts of this particular situation.
    Let's not fight.

    Rob
     
  14. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Musicguy,

    It appears the subject watch case was made by the Fahys Watch Case Co.

    Robert
     
  15. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The point of contention here is whether the level playing field paragraph in the Member's Code of Ethical Conduct applies to both buyers and sellers. Here is the paragraph:

    As you can see it does not put constraints on the buyer although many feel that is the essence of the level field, that it applies to both.

    The complete code may be found at https://nawcc.org/images/stories/member_pdfs/Member_Code_of_Conduct_5-28-2011.pdf

    My personal practice is to inform any seller of errors in their description if I am considering purchase, whether the error is in their favor or my favor. From this dialog, I suspect It Was uses the same rule. I make an exception for live auctions unless I am sure the auctioneer has misleading information since I do not know what mind games the auctioneer may be playing.
     
  16. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    I found the auction in question. IMO, Musicguy did nothing wrong by not informing the seller that he might have the wrong watch images up. He gave the seller, a professional with over 2000 feedback rating, a chance to verify that the image was of the subject watch being auctioned. If the seller verified that the images were of the watch that he bid on, and Musicguy gets a 17J watch, he should return it. Had he not have verified it, it would be another story.

    If Musicguy gets the 922 for his price, he got a very nice watch at a very nice price, even if the case isn't made for Hamilton. However, despite my not finding that style case for factory-cased 922's, I sense that it's original. If all it needs is a clean and oil, then he really scored. I'd like to have one of those highly jeweled bridge-models. I'd send congratulations but don't want to jinx it. Good luck.
     
  17. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #17 Bila, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    In relation to the dialog Tom (if I am reading you correctly), I do not see anywhere in the previous Op's posts that he actually disclosed anything to the seller about what the watch actual was. All that was said by the Op's own statement, he ask them;

    "I just want to confirm before I bid, that the watch in the photographs is the same
    watch you are selling. I'm not trying to insult you, just asking."

    They responded, "
    The one and only, Yes it is"

    I understand the code Tom, maybe it needs to be tweaked a little with reference to the Buyer that they also discharge their duties in relation to ethics and conduct. The code to me clearly seems to target just Sellers in relation to Business transactions, when as you said, "
    As you can see it does not put constraints on the buyer although many feel that is the essence of the level field, that it applies to both."


     
  18. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    This is the last post I will make on this subject.

    The seller was a professional auction house/pawn shop type place
    that's been around since 1986. I told him to double check his
    listing photographs(and he did). If this was an individual with no feedback,
    or someone who doesn't sell clocks and watches on a regular basis(like this one does)
    I would have approached it differently.

    I am truly sorry that I offended you Bila, and I will make sure
    I learn from every experience I have. I was kind of joking about
    returning the watch, because I believe I will get the watch in the
    photograph just like the seller with over 2000 feedback 100% positive said.

    I don't know you, but I try to be very transparent here, and polite
    to others. It's never my intention to create drama. I have told countless
    sellers on ebay that they have wrong listings, I even started a thread about it here on this forum.
    I believe I'm an honest ebay user.

    If what I did offends many of you here at the NAWCC forum, then it's time for me to go.

    Thanks
    Rob
     
  19. darrahg

    darrahg Registered User
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    I am not offended. I am sure much meaning and intent can be lost when writing here and elsewhere. I credit all for keeping their cool and discussing it.
     
  20. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Rob, I am not offended either. With a really high volume seller who did not want to take the time to do a sanity check between his listing and pictures, I might have decided it was a lesson he needed to learn and cheap for him at the price. Of course he will not learn any lesson and will be unlikely to even notice what happened.

    I am glad that you take the time to inform naive sellers that they have made an error, even when it may cost you money. I try to do the same thing. A couple of times when I have tried to "help" the high volume sellers, I have been told to "get stuffed."

    Whatever rules we have in place, we should have plenty of room for personal decisions in their interpretations. When the BOD were discussing the Member's Code of Ethical Conduct, the previous draft was called the "Code of Ethics." We decided that we had no means and no business investigating anyone's ethics and observing conduct was the best we could possibly do. The language focused on selling despite my arguing that it should also include some language about buying from the general public whom we have the mission to educate.
     
  21. LloydB

    LloydB Registered User

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    If Rob had written

    "If the watch I get in the mail is a [different model]
    broken 17j Hamilton
    then I will return it."

    I suspect this exchange wouldn't have happened.

    FWIW, I understood that to be Rob's intention.
     
  22. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    #22 musicguy, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
    Many people over the years have told me that when something sells on
    ebay(for less than you think it's worth) many times you are deluding
    yourself thinking you got a great deal. Because, out of the 9 other bidders
    you paid the highest price at that time(if you won it). You paid the current market price.

    The reason I bring that up is because I was tracking another similar 12s 23j watch to the one
    I just bought (this one was a Hamilton 920 12s 23j). I wanted to see what it was going to sell
    for on eBay. And this watch was going off(selling) within a week of the one I just bought(so it was a good comparison).

    This particular one's description and photos were very complete(12 photos, listed the jewel count and grade number in title).
    It didn't sell for too much more than what I paid for mine(literally and this one had free shipping).
    And this one that just sold (even though it needs a new balance staff) comes in a Hamilton
    original box(can't tell if original to this watch), and in it's factory signed case.
    (Ended ebay listing for similar watch)

    If these watches(mine included) were 18k or 14k they would have sold quickly and at
    a premium price.

    I think these 12 size watches should have more buying demand for their quality and beauty, but
    the 16 size get all the buyers. The 12 size don't get the love they should(even highly jeweled).

    This could all be from a slumping demand for pocket watches in general.
    It's really a buyers market now, but not for investment purposes because
    the prices of these same watches will probably be lower next year.


    Rob
     
  23. rolandantrobus

    rolandantrobus Registered User

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    I'm with musicguy on this one. Otherwise what is the point of putting something up for auction at all? The alternative is everything priced as per the price guide book and description. That would take all the fun out of it and drive me into car boot sales etc, with even more scope for skulduggery.
     
  24. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    If anyone is interested in seeing the watch, I'm moving this
    over to a more appropriate thread. CLICK HERE


    Rob
     
  25. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    #25 RJSoftware, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    RJ
     
  26. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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    #26 musicguy, Aug 27, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
    I saw the exact watch again listed incorrectly(I did not end up buying this one) and
    in his listing he said "[FONT=&amp]I can not open the back of the Watch for some reason so I do not know how many jewels it is"[/FONT]
    this time I emailed the seller and said:

    "My guess is that it's a very high grade 12 size Hamilton.
    I think it's a 23 jewel watch possibly in a 14k
    solid gold case. But that's just my guess. "

    They didn't respond, and didn't end the listing.

    Whoever bought it(hopefully someone here) got fantastic deal.


    Rob
     
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