Is the sievert Pro 86 torch viable for silver brazing?

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by ChrisCam, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi, the choice of best torch for clock work can be very subjective and even immotive. Jerry Kieffer strongly recommends the Smith little Torch. The Smith set up he recommends is with Acetylene and Oxygen and I note he has posted that he has not got the same results using substitute gases. Now Gerry lives in the US and I live in the UK. Gerry is a seasoned, experienced craftsman and I am but a green horn, fairly good with my hands maybe, but still a green horn. Also in the UK for a hobbyist or occasional user acetylene rental charges are if you are being sensible prohibitive. There are substitutes the Smith will run on like propane or Mapp but they seem according to reports not as good and anyway apparently mapp gas is becoming difficult to find and is being replaced by propylene often sold as pro fuel. There can be nozzle issues using different gases with those a torch was designed for.

    The issue from a green horn is also is it wise to start at the AO heat point....we could argue that but surely some experience at a lower heat range would be beneficial as far as using solder, cleaning and just plain soldering / brazing experience.

    So the point of this post to any one familiar with the Sievert torch that runs on propane which has been around for i believe 115 years or so is, is this the way to go (will it do the job of silver brazing) rather than starting with the starters hand size torches.
    regards. If the small starters torch is the way to go please recommend the one you think a good punt for silver brazing.
    Chris

    ha138j-1.jpg
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    8,201
    243
    63
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The torch in the picture appears to be propane and air. While propane and air can theoretically reach brazing temperatures, the lower temperature flame will take longer to heat the part and a larger portion of the part will become heated. With acetylene you have a much hotter flame so you can have better control by quickly bringing just the work area to temperature with a more concentrated hotter flame. The torch you ask about would appear to be more like a plumber would use to solder pipes. Not sure what's available in the UK but in the US one can usually buy small acetylene tanks out right and avoid rental. With O2 tanks in the US ,except the small disposable cylinders, the law requires periodic testing of high pressure o2 the tanks, so that can be expensive if you own the tank. The supplier I use allows tanks purchased from them to just be exchanged for another full one.

    RC
     
  3. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks RC, the torch is used by many hobbyist jewellery makes and is used widely in the jewellery trade. as always how you use it will determine the results. With the right nozzle it delivers a pin point flame and that's enough of the spiel they say. In the UK from my investigations you cannot buy acetylene outright like in the US which is the crippler. I could go with the pro fuel (propylene) substitute but as Gerry Kieffer (and to be fair many other posters on other forums have also) has put the mockers on any alternative to acetylene I am reluctant to jump in there.. I think this torch (the Sievert ) will do the job as propane gets up to the required temp (but not so easily but possibly safer). The question I am asking myself is unless I can be sure an acetylene substitute will be OK it would be silly to lash out all the money the Smith torch requires. At the end of the day if I can't make my mind up its a small entry level butane chap.
    Chris
     
  4. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    38,225
    317
    83
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Like with most things, if you're going to invest in tools, invest in the best one you can afford. Otherwise you'll end up having two, and will never use one of them.
     
  5. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks S.B yes your right, I am all over the place on this one and will look at all posts before committing.
    Chris
     
  6. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member Donor

    Dec 18, 2011
    6,893
    142
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to your question. The mass of the parts and length of the joint you are trying to braze is very important. For the time that I have been repairing clocks, the number of times that I have had to silver braze is relatively few, and the parts are small. One example would be when I made a new winding arbour. To secure the spring catch pin a press fit would have been sufficient, but I decided to silver braze instead. This gives you an idea of the size of the part involved. I was able to make a very nice joint with the commonly available mini butane torch as shown in one of your other threads.

    I have about 5 mini butane torches including a couple of very thin pencil torches that cost about $3. Again I have more due to projects we had a work. As I mentioned previously, surface prep, flux and how the part is supported is important for good results. Some of the torches have piezo starters, some start with a lighter. I have never had a piezo failure, but that isn't important.

    My suggestion is to start with an inexpensive butane pencil flame torch and practice. If you find that you are doing alot of brazing and you work with parts needing a higher heat then you can step up. The butane torch will still be useful for annealing things and doing larger mass soft soldering.

    David
     
    ChrisCam likes this.
  7. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    David , you are a pal, I know when the advise is sound...thanks.
    Chris
     
  8. AJSBSA

    AJSBSA Registered User
    Donor

    Nov 24, 2009
    533
    17
    18
    Male
    Clockmaker
    Cheshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Preparation is the key shiny parts a borax cone, super easy silver solder and a pickle solution is all I have needed to in 15 years of clockmaking and repair. I do use two torches at the same time to get the solder to flow on larger parts these are the torches I use, making a replacement bezel hinge here
    Hinge Rep-004.JPG Hinge Rep-005.JPG Hinge Rep-006.JPG Hinge Rep-007.JPG Hinge Rep-008.JPG Hinge Rep-009.JPG
     
  9. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    10,456
    305
    83
    To do serious metal work you really need to have full control of the fuel and oxidizing gas. Most people end up using oxy/propane or oxy/acetylene. Willie X
     
  10. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    From one old Biker to another thanks. Glad to see you have the Proxxon torch as have just ordered it. 2 follow up points why use the borax cone as opposed to other borax types and what is the pickling solution used for as not seen this mentioned in other posts?
    chris
     
  11. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Willie your advise as always i respect and I may end up at this point if I do enough soldering to warrant the expense.
    Chris
     
  12. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    8,201
    243
    63
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You don't need, and probably shouldn't want oxy/propane or oxy/acetylene for soldering. A small butane torch will do just fine for 99% of clock related soldering. oxy/acetylene is only indicated for brazing or High temperature silver soldering, (which some consider to be brazing). I have oxy/acetylene but have only used it a couple times for clock work. Its nice to have but my little butane torch is safer and quite adequate for most work requiring heat. If you do plan to use oxy/acetylene, please get quality equipment. Acetylene is quite unstable and can explode spontaneously if the pressure exceeds much over 15 psi. It is essential to have backflow preventers and regulators that guarantee that pressure will be maintained at the proper level.

    RC
     
  13. AJSBSA

    AJSBSA Registered User
    Donor

    Nov 24, 2009
    533
    17
    18
    Male
    Clockmaker
    Cheshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #13 AJSBSA, Mar 15, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
    Hi Chris I tried various fluxes I even went down the blind ally of flux and silver solder mixed together in a easy dispenser but I never got consistent results until I went old school with the Borax cone and ceramic dish add a little water rub the cone on the dish and you can get the perfect mix in seconds. I like to use two torches at the same time you can really control the flow of the solder getting it right where you want it to go start by heating from the underneath (where you want the solder to go) then when you think it is hot enough keeping the first torch heating the part play the other torch on the solder its self until it flows the Proxxon one has a tighter smaller flame shape the Blazer torch is less precise but a little hotter I think. Pickling is just the process of neutralising the flux after soldering if you do not neutralise flux it will continue to do its job spoiling your work I use this type
    Hinge Rep-016.jpg
     
  14. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    thanks Stephen and all posters really useful advice.
    chris
     
  15. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Stephen, I have got the same 2 torches as you and am shopping for butane refills. The first thing I notice is that screwfiX and others do a butane / propane mix, have you used these and if so are they OK,?
    Regards
    Chris
     
  16. AJSBSA

    AJSBSA Registered User
    Donor

    Nov 24, 2009
    533
    17
    18
    Male
    Clockmaker
    Cheshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I do not know I just use the normal butane lighter refill
     
  17. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #17 ChrisCam, Mar 17, 2019 at 11:42 AM
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019 at 12:27 PM
    Thanks anyway will stick with Butane then as safer so to do, might mess up nozzles or something.
    Chris
     
  18. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User
    Donor

    Feb 15, 2018
    102
    17
    18
    Male
    Horologist
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Chris.
    I know in Canada most of the lighter refill cans are almost all a mix of butane and propane, without the sulphur smell.
    I always use Colibri or a better, ultra refined name brand. I find they work best for my torches even if it costs more.
    There is also pure n-butane available that is a bit more expensive but I notice the flame doesnt seem as hot.
    Mostly just avoid scented (thats what killed my blazer) or cheap stuff.
    Dan.
     
  19. ChrisCam

    ChrisCam Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 9, 2017
    668
    8
    18
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Cheers Dan useful stuff. At the moment I am sticking with Ronson butane as they are a brand name...but hey can you trust anyone anymore?
    Chris
     
  20. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User
    Donor

    Feb 15, 2018
    102
    17
    18
    Male
    Horologist
    BC Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Anytime.
    Yea thats for sure. Ronson is a good one here as well, I have heard it was a different mix in the US. But I dont know about that.
    Dan.
     

Share This Page