Is it ok to write repair dates on a clock case

[novicetimekeeper]

Kinsler left this link in another thread. I guess some guys can get away with 'scratching' their name on anything. The restoration of "Big Ben". It sure would be fun to see.



View attachment 692932

Doesn't it have a plate on it from where it had a major repair after a weight fell the height of the tower and the clock virtually exploded?

That's why the base of the tower below the weights is now filled with sand bags.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/120661/area14mp/image-20160429-10480-isoczt.jpg

 

[Schatznut]

So Gage, you really rolled a grenade under the bus with that question!

 

[Schatznut]

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/files/120661/area14mp/image-20160429-10480-isoczt.jpg

What's the story behind this photo? Is this the result of the blitz or some other catastrophe?

 

[bruce linde]

the lower tablet has a bunch of signatures.... in pencil... including noah pomeroy... which i think is way cool.

and joseph dunning!

 

[Bruce Alexander]

No offense intended Bruce. Yes, to each his own.

Absolutely Fitz. I enjoy reading your take on things very much. We all have different life experiences. Thanks for taking some time to share yours.

 

[Chillspine]

Hi RC,

If the British Museum asked you to service one of the Thomas Tompion’s in their collection would you write or engrave your name on that? The answer is a definite NO.

If I were granted the honor of a restoration commission from the British Museum on ANY piece, I would SURELY contribute my service mark (and modern, printed maintenance record) to the piece, in the style previously established.
I, too, feel the reverence for historical pieces; but as has been stated earlier, what if the clock lives another 200 years? Your contribution to its preservation would be a significant milestone in its provenance... and may, in fact, aid a future achaeo-horologist in tracing the piece's lifespan, provenance, and maintenance record through the ages.
I would suggest that we 'follow suit' in the markings of our forefathers, and leave our footprint (fingerprint?) on the historical record. Our markings are no less relevant or important than those left before ours. I would hate to think that a future owner/horology historian would find a 'gap' in the time line of his treasure because I opted not to declare my participation in its preservation.
Yes: Do No Harm! But also, Yes: document your contributions for future generations!
If I were to acquire a new timepiece and discover even recent markings within, I would be joyful this knowledge, and in my ability to connect to its recent past -- and to possibly even communicate with its prior caretaker!
Fortunately, we have wonderful modern tools for creating detailed records of our work. Imagine the epiphanies we would enjoy had the final handler of Tutankhamen's sarcophagus owned a cell phone! The photo-record and narrative of its final sealing and interment, and their significance. would be priceless.
I submit that the work that you (we) do is no less significant, relevant, or important to the future.

Cheers;
Chilly

 

[DeanT]

If I were granted the honor of a restoration commission from the British Museum on ANY piece, I would SURELY contribute my service mark (and modern, printed maintenance record) to the piece, in the style previously established.
I, too, feel the reverence for historical pieces; but as has been stated earlier, what if the clock lives another 200 years? Your contribution to its preservation would be a significant milestone in its provenance... and may, in fact, aid a future achaeo-horologist in tracing the piece's lifespan, provenance, and maintenance record through the ages.
I would suggest that we 'follow suit' in the markings of our forefathers, and leave our footprint (fingerprint?) on the historical record. Our markings are no less relevant or important than those left before ours. I would hate to think that a future owner/horology historian would find a 'gap' in the time line of his treasure because I opted not to declare my participation in its preservation.
Yes: Do No Harm! But also, Yes: document your contributions for future generations!
If I were to acquire a new timepiece and discover even recent markings within, I would be joyful this knowledge, and in my ability to connect to its recent past -- and to possibly even communicate with its prior caretaker!
Fortunately, we have wonderful modern tools for creating detailed records of our work. Imagine the epiphanies we would enjoy had the final handler of Tutankhamen's sarcophagus owned a cell phone! The photo-record and narrative of its final sealing and interment, and their significance. would be priceless.
I submit that the work that you (we) do is no less significant, relevant, or important to the future.

Cheers;
Chilly

There is no way you would be allowed anywhere near a British museum timepiece if you intended to put a service mark on it.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

What's the story behind this photo? Is this the result of the blitz or some other catastrophe?

1976, fly arbour fractured, uncontrolled descent of weight lead to catastrophic failure. Initially thought to be a bomb. Fortunately the building was not damaged but the bottom of the weight space is now filled with sand bags and I believe all the other arbours were checked with NDT

 

[Bruce Alexander]

I would SURELY contribute my service mark

Interesting perspecitive Chilly. Thanks for sharing it. In my somewhat limited experience, I've never seen a "service mark" that looked like anything more than a poorly scrawled attempt at immortality. I have run across some interesting "notes" left on various pieces of paper sealed in old envelopes though. Looking at newspaper linings in weight shells sometimes offer an original time-capsule glimpse into the time the movement was manufactured. That would be a nice place to put a business card, in my opinion. I've sealed one of my business cards in the top of Crystal Regulator cases. I have little doubt that they'll be entombed there for quite some time before they see the light of day again. Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Do you have any photos of your "Service Mark"?

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Fitzclan]

Interesting perspecitive Chilly. Thanks for sharing it. In my somewhat limited experience, I've never seen a "service mark" that looked like anything more than a poorly scrawled attempt at immortality.

That seems a little rough. I agree that scratching plates is going too far but I don’t see any difference between a well placed pencil mark and adding a business card Except that the card can be lost. They accomplish the same thing. Wether or not the card stays with the clock will be entirely up to the next repairer. His or her opinion will prevail.
Bruce L posted the tablet with lots of scrawls on the back. Was this in poor taste or considered vandalism? I believe it greatly improves the value And in my opinion it’s all part of the fun.
Most artists sign their paintings. Why not?

 

[Chris.K]

Hello all,

I was just curious as to what everyone’s opinion is as to is it ok to write repair dates on a clock case, or, in other words, what is the best way to permanently document a repair date for a clock, so that people can know the date/ repairs-person years after the repair was done, and/or the clock has changed ownership, e.t.c. This question came to me after looking at my 1843 Jonathan Frost wooden mov. Wall clock and noticing all the pencil marks on the door of people who have repaired it over the years. it is packed with dates, names, and various work that has been done to the clock over the years. Because my clock has been sitting not running for probably 20 years, I wanted to put my name on it or document the work I have done to it somehow so my name can carry on in the history of the clock like all the other people who have worked and documented their work on the clock.

(below you can see the writing on the back of the door to the case)

thank you kindly for any and all words you have to add on this matter,

Gage Robertson
View attachment 692227 View attachment 692228

I use a pocket sized notebook paper and list all that I have done and tuck in a corner of the clock out of sight and not using tape. If the clock has repair dates I list them first in order then list mine for ongoing history if I decide to sell it.

 

[bruce linde]

guys, seriously? there is a difference between a horologist who builds a clock from scratch, a professional clock repair person servicing a clock, and a hobbyist who acquires a clock at a yard or estate sale. there is a difference between a $10,000 clock and a $100 clock. there is a difference between respecting an all-original 200+ year old clock as the piece of art it is, and whipping out your engraving tool to deface a movement with your drivers license number.

Bruce L posted the tablet with lots of scrawls on the back. Was this in poor taste or considered vandalism? I believe it greatly improves the value And in my opinion it's all part of the fun.

the 'fun' is in being able to associate a piece 150 years old with a famous person (or two), or add some history to a clock. joseph dunning was a major player in the early clock scene. noah pomeroy was also a known maker. having their signatures on the back of my tablet is significant. having any of OUR signatures would not be. and, most of the time i see drivers license numbers or illegible scrawls that aren't even in straight lines... and only serve to degrade overall aesthetics. i would not even dream of adding my signature on that tablet just because i serviced the movement or had the clock in my position.


my clock mentor has a precision regulator made in prague in 1840. he didn't bother disassembling the great wheel until the second cleaning, at which point he found the following note... which had survived 100 years and at least one ultrasonic bath:



the piece of paper is half the size of a fortune cookie fortune, and a perfect example of a non-permanent / non-destructive way of attaching additional information and provenance to a clock. note that the note has stayed with the clock for over 100 years.

Most artists sign their paintings. Why not?

because the bulk of us are hobbyists and not clockmakers? because we're not 'artists'... just the people who happen to currently have a 100+ year old clock in our possession? because we didn't create the art and are therefore NOT entitled to sign it? do you step forward and sign paintings you see in museums? i think not...


yes, i 'own' my clocks... kind of. i'm actually more the latest caretaker. most of my clocks are 150+ years old. i've been doing this for maybe 12 years. who the heck am i to add a permanent mark? it would be enough to add a note documenting how/where i acquired a piece, servicing notes, etc. and, since we are now well ensconced in the digital world, adding the information to the website i've created to show/document my clocks insures that such information is preserved for the executor of my estate and future 'owners' (i.e., caretakers) of the clocks.

If I were granted the honor of a restoration commission from the British Museum on ANY piece, I would SURELY contribute my service mark (and modern, printed maintenance record) to the piece, in the style previously established.

as deanT said... that's not how it works. any professional restorer is there to restore... not make changes. the goal is to leave no trace on the rice paper. yes, all work gets documented... but not etched into previously pristine plates.

being able to service clocks that have been running for over a hundred years is a privilege. it's our responsibility to do the best possible job... including un-doing previous sub-par repairs... but you can't unscratch a drivers license number or 'service mark' out of a movement plate without jumping through major hoops.... which is why i use words like 'deface' and 'vandalism'. here are two examples of the kind of crude marks i'm talking about:



what do those marks add? nothing. they detract from the aesthetics and value (which would you rather have one of those with the marks? or an otherwise identical one without?

now... if you really did have a discrete little stamp you used to add your repair mark, and put it, say, on an inside plate obscured by the great wheel so it was only visible when the movement was disassembled for cleaning, that might be ok.

maker's marks? sure... they earned it.

our marks? please... go spray paint a freeway overpass or billboard and get it out of your system.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

That seems a little rough. I agree that scratching plates is going too far but I don’t see any difference between a well placed pencil mark and adding a business card Except that the card can be lost. They accomplish the same thing. Wether or not the card stays with the clock will be entirely up to the next repairer. His or her opinion will prevail.
Bruce L posted the tablet with lots of scrawls on the back. Was this in poor taste or considered vandalism? I believe it greatly improves the value And in my opinion it’s all part of the fun.
Most artists sign their paintings. Why not?

Okay Fitz. Perhaps I am being a little harsh. Like a Supreme Court ruling "I know pornography when I see it". If the work is good and the "signature" does not detract from the beauty of the clock, fine. I probably wouldn't do it, but as I've always said in the Thread, that's just me. I like the removable cards. That's about as far as I will personally take things. To each his or her own. What has been done usually can not be easily undone, nor should it in most cases I think.

Best regards,

Bruce

PS
"there is a difference between respecting an all-original 200+ year old clock as the piece of art it is, and whipping out your engraving tool to deface a movement with your drivers license number."

 

[DeanT]

That seems a little rough. I agree that scratching plates is going too far but I don’t see any difference between a well placed pencil mark and adding a business card Except that the card can be lost. They accomplish the same thing. Wether or not the card stays with the clock will be entirely up to the next repairer. His or her opinion will prevail.
Bruce L posted the tablet with lots of scrawls on the back. Was this in poor taste or considered vandalism? I believe it greatly improves the value And in my opinion it’s all part of the fun.
Most artists sign their paintings. Why not?

The artist signs their painting but the restorer who cleans it doesn't add his signature.

 

[David S]

I use small copper tags, often used by gardeners, to mark dates and notes. I attach them to one of the pillar posts under a nut.


David

 

[Fitzclan]

The artist signs their painting but the restorer who cleans it doesn't add his signature.

Don’t know about that. I know that galleries usually add their stamp to the back or the frame of works. While they don’t have anything to do with creating the piece, It does add to the provenance or history.

 

[DeanT]

Don’t know about that. I know that galleries usually add their stamp to the back or the frame of works. While they don’t have anything to do with creating the piece, It does add to the provenance or history.

we agree to disagree. I think your approach is appalling but it’s your choice.

 

[Fitzclan]

guys, seriously? there is a difference between a horologist who builds a clock from scratch, a professional clock repair person servicing a clock, and a hobbyist who acquires a clock at a yard or estate sale. there is a difference between a $10,000 clock and a $100 clock. there is a difference between respecting an all-original 200+ year old clock as the piece of art it is, and whipping out your engraving tool to deface a movement with your drivers license number.




the 'fun' is in being able to associate a piece 150 years old with a famous person (or two), or add some history to a clock. joseph dunning was a major player in the early clock scene. noah pomeroy was also a known maker. having their signatures on the back of my tablet is significant. having any of OUR signatures would not be. and, most of the time i see drivers license numbers or illegible scrawls that aren't even in straight lines... and only serve to degrade overall aesthetics. i would not even dream of adding my signature on that tablet just because i serviced the movement or had the clock in my position.


my clock mentor has a precision regulator made in prague in 1840. he didn't bother disassembling the great wheel until the second cleaning, at which point he found the following note... which had survived 100 years and at least one ultrasonic bath:

View attachment 693025

the piece of paper is half the size of a fortune cookie fortune, and a perfect example of a non-permanent / non-destructive way of attaching additional information and provenance to a clock. note that the note has stayed with the clock for over 100 years.






because the bulk of us are hobbyists and not clockmakers? because we're not 'artists'... just the people who happen to currently have a 100+ year old clock in our possession? because we didn't create the art and are therefore NOT entitled to sign it? do you step forward and sign paintings you see in museums? i think not...


yes, i 'own' my clocks... kind of. i'm actually more the latest caretaker. most of my clocks are 150+ years old. i've been doing this for maybe 12 years. who the heck am i to add a permanent mark? it would be enough to add a note documenting how/where i acquired a piece, servicing notes, etc. and, since we are now well ensconced in the digital world, adding the information to the website i've created to show/document my clocks insures that such information is preserved for the executor of my estate and future 'owners' (i.e., caretakers) of the clocks.







as deanT said... that's not how it works. any professional restorer is there to restore... not make changes. the goal is to leave no trace on the rice paper. yes, all work gets documented... but not etched into previously pristine plates.

being able to service clocks that have been running for over a hundred years is a privilege. it's our responsibility to do the best possible job... including un-doing previous sub-par repairs... but you can't unscratch a drivers license number or 'service mark' out of a movement plate without jumping through major hoops.... which is why i use words like 'deface' and 'vandalism'. here are two examples of the kind of crude marks i'm talking about:

View attachment 693026 View attachment 693027

what do those marks add? nothing. they detract from the aesthetics and value (which would you rather have one of those with the marks? or an otherwise identical one without?

now... if you really did have a discrete little stamp you used to add your repair mark, and put it, say, on an inside plate obscured by the great wheel so it was only visible when the movement was disassembled for cleaning, that might be ok.

maker's marks? sure... they earned it.

our marks? please... go spray paint a freeway overpass or billboard and get it out of your system.

Now that we’ve beaten this to death, I think we all agree that scratching up plates is Unacceptabl, especially when the Rosetta Stone is required to decipher the meaning.

guys, seriously? there is a difference between a horologist who builds a clock from scratch, a professional clock repair person servicing a clock, and a hobbyist who acquires a clock at a yard or estate sale. there is a difference between a $10,000 clock and a $100 clock. there is a difference between respecting an all-original 200+ year old clock as the piece of art it is, and whipping out your engraving tool to deface a movement with your drivers license number.




the 'fun' is in being able to associate a piece 150 years old with a famous person (or two), or add some history to a clock. joseph dunning was a major player in the early clock scene. noah pomeroy was also a known maker. having their signatures on the back of my tablet is significant. having any of OUR signatures would not be. and, most of the time i see drivers license numbers or illegible scrawls that aren't even in straight lines... and only serve to degrade overall aesthetics. i would not even dream of adding my signature on that tablet just because i serviced the movement or had the clock in my position.


my clock mentor has a precision regulator made in prague in 1840. he didn't bother disassembling the great wheel until the second cleaning, at which point he found the following note... which had survived 100 years and at least one ultrasonic bath:

View attachment 693025

the piece of paper is half the size of a fortune cookie fortune, and a perfect example of a non-permanent / non-destructive way of attaching additional information and provenance to a clock. note that the note has stayed with the clock for over 100 years.






because the bulk of us are hobbyists and not clockmakers? because we're not 'artists'... just the people who happen to currently have a 100+ year old clock in our possession? because we didn't create the art and are therefore NOT entitled to sign it? do you step forward and sign paintings you see in museums? i think not...


yes, i 'own' my clocks... kind of. i'm actually more the latest caretaker. most of my clocks are 150+ years old. i've been doing this for maybe 12 years. who the heck am i to add a permanent mark? it would be enough to add a note documenting how/where i acquired a piece, servicing notes, etc. and, since we are now well ensconced in the digital world, adding the information to the website i've created to show/document my clocks insures that such information is preserved for the executor of my estate and future 'owners' (i.e., caretakers) of the clocks.







as deanT said... that's not how it works. any professional restorer is there to restore... not make changes. the goal is to leave no trace on the rice paper. yes, all work gets documented... but not etched into previously pristine plates.

being able to service clocks that have been running for over a hundred years is a privilege. it's our responsibility to do the best possible job... including un-doing previous sub-par repairs... but you can't unscratch a drivers license number or 'service mark' out of a movement plate without jumping through major hoops.... which is why i use words like 'deface' and 'vandalism'. here are two examples of the kind of crude marks i'm talking about:

View attachment 693026 View attachment 693027

what do those marks add? nothing. they detract from the aesthetics and value (which would you rather have one of those with the marks? or an otherwise identical one without?

now... if you really did have a discrete little stamp you used to add your repair mark, and put it, say, on an inside plate obscured by the great wheel so it was only visible when the movement was disassembled for cleaning, that might be ok.

maker's marks? sure... they earned it.

our marks? please... go spray paint a freeway overpass or billboard and get it out of your system.

Now that we’ve beaten this to death, I think we are all in agreement that scratching plates is unacceptable and random numbers which code requires the Rosetta Stone to decipher do nothing positive for anyone.

Would I write my name on that tablet? No. It has special historical value in itself and is fragile. Would I sign and date the back of the dial? Probably. My work is part of the clocks history too. Noah didn’t create the clock either, he simply did what we do. Was he “entitled “ to sign it?

I think your mentor was very lucky that his note survived an ultrasonic dunk. It could very easily have been lost forever.

Many of us do restorative work on clocks. A metal case that is riddled with rust or a chipped marble case that spent many years in a basement and is covered with mold, would never find a place in my home as-is. Restored to its original grandeur, it becomes a treasure to be passed on.
Don’t get me wrong; I don’t believe that all cases should be restored or refinished but I think my work is valuable and worth the simple pencil documentation of name and date just as others in the past have traditionally done.

Beyond all of that, who is to decide who is an artist? I know that you are an accomplished musician. Makes you an artist in my view. I am also a pretty decent musician and a visual artist as well and I know of more than one fine artists on the board, so what makes you think that their signatures could not contribute anything to a clocks provenance in future years?

Bottom line for me: scratching up or engraving plates a big NO! Penciling on rear of case or dial name and date, yes. No matter what the considered value.

There are those who would like to erase history that doesn’t suit them. I’m not in their camp.

Cheers to all and happy clocksmithing.

 

[Fitzclan]

we agree to disagree. I think your approach is appalling but it’s your choice.

Sorry you feel that way Dean but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[Schatznut]

This thread has ceased to be interesting. I'm moving on...

 

[bruce linde]

Beyond all of that, who is to decide who is an artist? I know that you are an accomplished musician. Makes you an artist in my view. I am also a pretty decent musician and a visual artist as well and I know of more than one fine artists on the board, so what makes you think that their signatures could not contribute anything to a clocks provenance in future years?

ok, so now i’m curious and want to know more… pls bear w me.

are you an artist when it comes to clock repair? i certainly am not. and, even though other musicians think i must be pretty good when they find out i’m a singing bass player fronting a steely dan cover band, i know the truth: the difference between me and top tier pros is not insignificant… experience, chops and relationships built over many years in studios or on the road. i’ve been fortunate enough to meet, play w or be in recording studios or hanging backstage or on tour buses w some of the top names in the biz … but would never put myself in their league.

i mention that only because the earlier signatures in the banjo clock tablet example i provided were part of a community of makers who recognized and even expected each other’s signatures denoting they had serviced a top of the line timepiece. it was a shared practice among peers.

here's another example… some bonehead did a hack engraving job on the bezel of this chelsea… otoh, it did help verify (w additional research) that the clock was indeed on the melrose ferry, sailing the s.f. bay, owned by southern pacific (click on the photo to see the entire photo gallery):

clockhappy collection

clockhappy.com

i guess i don’t understand how someone seeing your name penciled in their clock case 25 years from now will know anything more about their clock’s provenance… do you include your location, date, and what was done (i.e., ‘this clock was serviced in long island, ny in 2019. three bushings,, cleaned and serviced’)? are we talking top quality collectible (i.e. expensive) clocks? more typical ebay / craigslist / estate sale clocks?

i think it's a good discussion to have… but am still struggling to imagine how you do this… how about some photos of how you've signed some of yours?

btw… if i had you service my 1815 willard school banjo clock and you added you signature to the tablet without asking me if you could i would be really tweaked. do you ask your clients beforehand?

 

[DeanT]

Here's an example of signing a clock.

Some fool wrote his name and scratched a stick figure on the side panel of this clock in 1977. Luckily the graffiti wasn't too deep and has now been removed.

As background, the clock dates to 1560's and has engravings on the sides which are copies of Hans Sebald Beham seven liberal arts circa 1519. This particular one is musica which fits nicely to the musical theme here.

Suffice to say I don't think the "restorer" did the clock any favours by signing a clock over 400 years old.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

some bonehead did a hack engraving job on the bezel of this chelsea

"Yikes!"

This has been, and continues to be (in my opinion) an interesting conversation. It doesn't look like any minds in the two opposing "camps" have been changed, but it's good to understand the various viewpoints and opinions. That's a great thing about the Fellowship to be enjoyed here, and I thank the volunteer moderators for keeping things civil and pleasant for all.

I will continue to watch, enjoy and consider this Thread but I really have nothing more to add. As a wise Moderator once told me, if you find yourself repeating previous points you've attempted to make, you're moving towards destructive, instead of instructive exchanges. Live, let live and learn.

Thanks for your time Folks!

Bruce

 

[bruce linde]

Some fool wrote his name and scratched a stick figure on the side panel of this clock in 1977. Luckily the graffiti wasn't too deep and has now been removed.

i can’t bring myself to hit a ‘like’ button on that post… whats a word for halfway between ‘hubris’ and ‘oblivious’? to do that to a clock over 400 years old is hublivious… and downright disrespectful.

but… we seem to have reached consensus that scratching on plates is not acceptable…

at this point i’d like to see more ways in which people manage to sign or log their work in non-destructive but (hopefully) lasting ways.

 

[Fitzclan]

Well I guess I will have to rethink my position. I had no idea that service dates and signatures could be so irksome.
The only tablet I would sign would be one of my own making.
I will continue to date my own clocks inconspicuously but will be sure the owner agrees to service data before adding anything in the future.
I don’t expect to be around in 25 years but these days we can google a name and possibly find out a little about the clocks history, where it has traveled in its lifetime etc. Just adds interest to me. They are sort of time capsules. Cheers all!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Here's an example of signing a clock.

Some fool wrote his name and scratched a stick figure on the side panel of this clock in 1977. Luckily the graffiti wasn't too deep and has now been removed.

As background, the clock dates to 1560's and has engravings on the sides which are copies of Hans Sebald Beham seven liberal arts circa 1519. This particular one is musica which fits nicely to the musical theme here.

Suffice to say I don't think the "restorer" did the clock any favours by signing a clock over 400 years old.

View attachment 693133 View attachment 693135 View attachment 693134 View attachment 693136

That's just awful, I can't see how anybody in their right mind could try and justify such vandalism.

 

[Ye Old Clock Fixer]

Hello all,

I was just curious as to what everyone’s opinion is as to is it ok to write repair dates on a clock case, or, in other words, what is the best way to permanently document a repair date for a clock, so that people can know the date/ repairs-person years after the repair was done, and/or the clock has changed ownership, e.t.c. This question came to me after looking at my 1843 Jonathan Frost wooden mov. Wall clock and noticing all the pencil marks on the door of people who have repaired it over the years. it is packed with dates, names, and various work that has been done to the clock over the years. Because my clock has been sitting not running for probably 20 years, I wanted to put my name on it or document the work I have done to it somehow so my name can carry on in the history of the clock like all the other people who have worked and documented their work on the clock.

(below you can see the writing on the back of the door to the case)

thank you kindly for any and all words you have to add on this matter,

Gage Robertson
View attachment 692227 View attachment 692228

I put a piece of paper in the case with repair information.

 

[TooManyClocks]

If nothing else, this photo shows the owner’s name and the fact that he had it in 1910….

He might win the prize for the biggest and most obnoxious, but it’s part of the clock’s hstory, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

John

 

[captainclock]

And along the same vein as this thread, I have 3 clocks a Seth Thomas from 1858, an Ingraham from 1904 and a kit clock from the 1960s or so that all three came to me through the family and none of them have any service information written anywhere in them, but I do know the provenance of each of my clocks from what family members have told me about the clocks.

The Seth Thomas (which was in the poorest condition of all of the clocks when I got it) had originally belonged to a local church that bought it brand new shortly after they built their building in 1858 (which is how I know when the clock was made) also the clock when it was owned by the church in question was apparently very frugal when it came to repairs because they only did the absolute minimal to keep the clock running (including using rathbun bushings when there was need to sure up any excessive wear) also the church that this clock belonged to had closes its doors for about 20 years or so which meant the clock was in a vacant building for about 20 years without anyone taking care of it and no heat in the winter time, and then the church reopened in the 1940s and my great-grandfather got the clock in the 1950s sometime after the church had decided to retire the clock and replace it with something more modern, and as far as I know my great-grandfather never ran the clock it was just decoration.

The 1904 Ingraham gingerbread clock I have that was my great-great grandfather's clock who was a farmer and a hardware store owner who built his own farm using supplies from his own hardware store, I don't know a whole lot about when he bought the clock, where he bought it, or why bought it, but I know he did, this clock too has no markings in it, but I know its been serviced in the past as the gong had been moved a couple of times in the clock and you could see the screw holes from where the gong was originally located and then the position of the gong had been installed in (I of course installed the gong assembly back to where it was originally, and filled in the holes from where the gong had been relocated to and colored in the woodfiller with black sharpie because the back of the clock case was painted/lacquered black at the factory) and also the dial pan mounting screws were stripped out on one side.

The kit clock was built by my great-great uncle Mark who was a handyman and did all of his own repairs around the house, he used those skills to build a kit clock, and he also built a crystal radio from a kit, and he never "Marked" his clock anywhere (see what i did there.)

 

[captainclock]

It seems as though many folks think leaving marks long ago was good but leaving marks today is bad. Oh well.

I've always been surprised at how long pencil marks/writing will last on a wood surface.

Willie X

Oh you'd be surprised at how long pencil and ink pen can last on wood surfaces I can testify to that myself, my church camp I went to when I was growing up was started in the 1920s and they had old wooden cabins that dated to the late 1920s (and some even later than that) and it was a tradition going back to at least the start of the camp that every kid that stayed in those cabins would sign their name and the date that they stayed there somewhere in the cabins (whether it be on the walls or the ceilings) and there are pencil and ink names that dated back to the 1930s that are still able to be seen inside those cabins.

 

[Gage_robertson_collector]

I think it really must depend on the clock. Some cabinets/cases lend themselves to stable storage of something like a business card. If you need to secure it in some inconspicuous fashion, I've used a small piece of blue painters tape. Usually the bottom of the case does just fine if there is no other location that will hold it. As others have said, a detailed invoice really should be the record of choice but the chances of those staying with the clock are almost nil if it changes hands. Great Thread and questions Gage!

Regards,

Bruce

Thank you Bruce! Perhaps taping a piece of paper to the case with blue tape in case you need more room to write the repairs? I believe painters tape is very gentle and wouldn’t Damage the wood so that is not a worry.

Gage

 

[Gage_robertson_collector]

If you were a plumber and did some repairs on someone's privy, would you leave your name or mark on it?
Inside the flush tank, on the under side of the seat?
Or, would you leave a duplicate somewhere of the mermaid tattoo on your arm?
To each their own,
JMHO
Dick

You have a good point if you look at clock repair as a similar line of work I guess, which makes sense plumbing and clock repair are both specialty jobs. Although, I think clock repair is different in one regard as if you installed a repair date label on a toilet, it would probably wash off and a label on a clock would stay with it forever.

Gage

 

[Bruce Alexander]

I thought that perhaps we were done here but okay...

OK. Having worked in a local jewellers it was not uncommon for the police to ask us to see if we could identify the actual owner of a stolen watch by our own repair marks in the back of the watch. Stolen property or evidence in a crime.

Aren't there serial numbers on anything expensive enough to involve the Police? I don't know watches. I should spend more time lurking over on some of the watch forums...Time is a valuable commodity though and I have no reason other than curiosity to drive me there. Here, we were discussing clocks, yes?.

The blue masking tape. Though I've had trouble with that on sun affected veneers. It can pull the veneer right off in places.

You mean sun bleaching? Yeah, sure but I was talking about taping a business card somewhere either on the inside of the case or the bottom. You know, sticking it where the sun don't shine.

You can always heat the tape with a hair dryer if it clings with age. You have to use your common sense. One size truly doesn't fit all anywhere in life, does it? Honestly, the business card with or without tape is only to help the next horologist down the road. After that, my documented service loses any "value" with each passing month or year. It can be disposed of. I would have no problems with that.

Regards.

 

[THTanner]

I leave a date and initials on the back of the dial in pencil. It is only visible during the next repair and can be easily removed if needed. On porcelain dials there is usually a metal ring where the note can be made.

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

That is reversible.

 

[THTanner]

OK. Having worked in a local jewellers it was not uncommon for the police to ask us to see if we could identify the actual owner of a stolen watch by our own repair marks in the back of the watch. Stolen property or evidence in a crime.

The blue masking tape. Though I've had trouble with that on sun affected veneers. It can pull the veneer right off in places.

Rather than the blue tape get the Green Frog tape from the painting section. It is better at not damaging surfaces and comes off easier

 

[Dave Heise]

I use a plastic business card holder lightly affixed to either the back (unseen) or the bottom of the clock with my business card and notations on the back of it. Additional cards can be placed in it as well. Only for turn-of-the-century made by the millions clocks, never for anything valuable.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

plastic business card holder lightly affixed to either the back (unseen) or the bottom of the clock with my business card

Hello Dave.
Sounds like a great idea. How do you affix these holders?

 

[Jim DuBois]

This I can support.......most of the other approaches? Not so much. And I don't encourage any adhesives on antique wood, but in this case they avoided a half roll of Scotch tape....this appears to be sealing wax. A rather unusual approach in these days, but a good one I think. Neatly done, wonder if it was done with a signet ring? Or maybe just small adhesive labels. Does it appear as if a crown can be seen embossed in a couple of them?

 

[Odin910]

A complete nugget in the clock world here so just sharing what I found this week..

I found a 1"x3/4" paper tag thumb tacked to the shoulder board of a free grandfather clock I got with the house I bought. Had the repair shop's name, address, phone, and a repair date written in ink April 12, 1979.

 

[Dave Heise]

Hello Dave.
Sounds like a great idea. How do you affix these holders?

Hi Bruce, sorry for the long delay.....The holders are self adhering - Avery 73720 bought at Office Depot or Staples. The glue is not super sticky and will not pull wood fragments if removed, that's what makes them so desirable to me.

 

[Jim DuBois]

from someone else's Facebook posting today. Nothing quite like repair history and unnecessary details hacked out and over original details no longer decipherable thanks to uncle fixit..

 

[Keith Doster]

Hey Gage. I read several responses to you, but couldn't invest the time to read 97 posts. Since this is your own clock, and since it has an obvious history of repairs/repairers from way back, I see no problem with you adding your name to the list, in pencil. But I would also print up a detailed list of the repairs you made, slip it into an envelope, and place it in the bottom of the clock. Or maybe write it instead of printing it. Regardless, it's your clock. Do whatever seems best to you. I can hardly believe there have been 97 (now 98) posts on this subject. Great question!!

 

[shutterbug]

Since this thread started in January, the deed has probably been done - foul or not

 

[Mike Mall]

I recently discovered on the door of my Ogee something written in pencil "Dec 15th 1876 Inshured 5 years" (yes that is the way it was spelled)
You simply can't beat seeing actual history in your hands.

I'm still a fan of the answer offered in # 69. It's as permanent as wanted in the future.

 

[Roy Gardner]

I figure that museums face similar concerns when affixing an accession number to an item. Can anyone from the NAWCC museum tell us their policies? The museum likely keeps separate records on the complete clocks and watches and other items that can be identified by their serial number or unique description. Some items might need a number attached. For my clocks & watches, I made a wide spreadsheet with columns for the description, source, location, condition of major subassemblies, service details & tips, and more.

David Lowe's Fantastic Finds article in NAWCC Bulletin Sep/Oct 2018 shows a yellowed Scotch-taped label on an alarm clock from Westclox's museum or engineering collection:

I like the idea of marking a serviced clock in a reversible way, like a soft copper or plastic tag tied on in a discreet location with copper wire or Nylon string. (Essentially what David S said in post #69.) It would be easily removed, leaving no trace. It could potentially have extra space for future service markings.

Note that books formerly in a public or institutional library are usually less collectible because of the prominent markings, with sellers stating "Ex Libris" to warn buyers. How does the NAWCC library deal with this? Books autographed by their authors or marked up by famous people can be more collectible.

I've heard that unwanted vandal graffiti scrawled inside Egyptian pyramids 3,000 years ago is now considered historically important and is preserved.

I find overly crude scratching of service numbers inside a watch distressing. When a watchmaker has good engraving skills, they can leave small, elegant numbers that speak better of the quality of the service. Did the use of watch papers in pocket watches cut down on the incidences of scratching there? I (and Mad Magazine) designed this one to put inside my dollar watches:

Some day my papers will be very collectible! Insertion of a watch paper is reversible and I figure it's good to use lint-free paper and archival ink.

bruce linde's interesting scrap of paper he showed in post #66 made me think: Has anybody ever found one inside a clock that says, "Help, I'm being held prisoner in a clock factory!" I think I'll do it. Fifty years from now it'll show up in this forum.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes, watch papers must have reduced movement marking as many detail service history.