Is it just me or ?

[Mike306p/Ansoniaman]

Hello, In the past few months ,I have seen that clock's/watches,what have you, whether it be on ebay, at Antique stores etc. and garage sales for that matter are getting harder to come by. Doesn't it seem that everything is now at a much higher price? As stated in a previous post, it still is a hobby of mine, but I do not know how one could make a living at this. Hobby heck, no it is an investment and you collect one thing, someone else collects another but it appears everyone else is looking for the same thing that we are. The clocks just because we collect them are very much over priced,is that because things like ebay have given people a reality check to estblish a price guide so to speak? Starting prices and reserves(usually auction houses) are at times worth more than the item calls for(IMOO) and then the premiums on top. Are people keeping the high dollar clocks and getting rid of the average clocks? There seems to be no deals anymore and everyone knows what's collectible and what is not. I guess it also depends on if you are the buyer or seller. I am a buyer and keep telling myself to sell what I don't care for anymore and to buy what I think I need. End result people are becomng more educated and develope knowledge as well as making a buck or two. I am, like everyone else,calling this a hobby, it's fun ain't it? Don't get me wrong everyone deserves to make a buck on his/her item that is for sale. P.S. What is that expression ? "They aren't making antiques anymore. " Half the fun is looking though. Ok enough of me rambling. Mike

 

[LloydB]

Hi Mike... the new instant survey software
froze up before half of the registered members
were able to respond, but so far, yes,
you seem to be right,... it's just you.

;-)

But sriously, it's always been a matter of supply and demand... the supply, as you said, isn't increasing, and the buyers have instant access, and are in ever increasing numbers.

Besides that, Sellers, on or off of eBay, are able to readily find out what items similar to theirs have sold for, quite recently.

Add to that those buyers who overbid (for whatever reasons) and you have a recipe for "expectation inflation".

I agree with your observations, and discipline
myself to just stop opening my wallet, when it's clear that some purchase isn't a good
value.

Then again, I suspect it really isn't about investing, for most hobbyists, ... more the hope of bringing some deserving mechanism back to life, and perhaps breaking even, after throwing in some 'sweat equity'?

When items get too costly, you just have to let that other person put in the work...

 

[Ansomnia]

Hi Mike, I have also noticed some ridiculous Live Auction starting prices. I don't know, maybe sellers are trying to establish high reserves.

In any case, I would simply pass on them if I think they are not worth the money or trouble. As Lloyd said, it's supply and demand. If you set a mental ceiling price and don't stray from that then you won't get caught up in the frenzy.

Sometimes people who are new to the market will mistakenly overbid on items before they realize their mistake. As people gain experience and own more clocks they often get less anxious about losing a bid. If a buyer gets more and more worked up about acquiring additional clocks then it may be a sign of an addiction getting out of hand. The value of a clock must bear some semblance to true market value or something is wrong.

Finally, I think if prices get too high for our liking we should simply turn our attention to something else we can enjoy doing. I can think of an endless number of interesting things I can do with the clocks I already have.


Michael

 

[Chris Radano]

Prices getting higher? For some clocks, yes. Mike, you collect Ansonia only (then they've got you over a barrell )? Yes, Ansonias seem to have a seller's market. If you want to upgrade, you may want to take advantage.

People getting educated? With the internet, yes. Collectors selling their average clocks? Always been so. I have noticed the choice selection on ebay has been gradually diminishing. Seems like a couple years ago, at any given time, there were several good clocks on ebay. Now, less good clocks, with more hurts on the nicer clocks.

When I see an older good quality collection go up for auction, I think that there will not be another collection like that in the future. The prices are getting higher.

Me? I have the basis for some keepers in my collection. I am not afraid to sell to upgrade. I want to have some good clocks, but luckily our home is not too large, so the number of clocks will cap soon. Then, I can fine tune. So, I don't plan on buying from scratch too much more, but who knows.

My collection brings enough satisfaction, that I find it increasingly easier to say no to a clock that is borderline. There are some deals, but with clocks, not many. Anyway, some of these issues are based on our perception. The market trends with antiques change. Interesting to hear how other feel.

 

[RJSoftware]

I think that ebay has changed the dynamics more than most people realize.

For one, ebay price should be viewed as a more relevant price than the experts price guides like Tran Duy Ly.

Another thing to note is that the ebay prices as well as other market prices should tend to fluctuate with this coming Christmass season.

As per selling on ebay I believe that mid November to be the optimum time to start selling. Selling lower priced items first, then to higher priced toward early/mid December. Late December sales may even be popular if seller offers instant shipping...

The gap that you describe between high selling collectables and common objects I believe to be the ever increasing use of ebay to price objects.

The market fluxtuates with desire and competition.

There is a definite curve of usage amoung the older. Who still have conceptual problems using the computer.

But, I believe that the decrease of prices of laptops has spurd many to take first steps. Flooding the market with more newbies.

Fresh meat to the experienced sellers.

RJ

 

[Missy]

Mike, I have noticed the same thing and agree with all the other comments as to the reasons, advent of computers and EBay, more collectors. I think I have been collecting clocks longer than most on this MB, starting back in 1964. (I am probably the greatgrandmother of the board.)

Looking back at the listings of the clock dealer in New York where we bought most of our clocks it is amazing. He had plenty of great clocks for reasonable prices. Of course, everything was cheaper at that time, but salaries were also lower too. The inflation thing. Then over the years the quality clocks got fewer and fewer and the prices on them went up.

I can remember when we could have bought lots of 12 "junkers" for $10.00 or $12.00 each. What they called "junkers" at that time are what I am seeing now on EBay go for over $100.00. If you can't fix them yourself and had to pay someone $100 or $150.00 to fix them that would be up to $250.00 for a common kitchen or mantel clock.
We didn't buy any as extra money was scarce. I wish we had.

I believe what we are seeing now on EBay are the bottom of the barrel. I believe 99% need repair or have been "worked on", or put together. If you find a quality original clock, you will have to pay the high price. Most good clocks are in the hands of collectors or being passed down in the family. There is a limit of antique clocks and these will just be recycled around and around. But then there is the thrill of the chase and the hope of discovering a hidden treasure.

I don't plan on buying anymore good clocks because of lack of room and it is past my time to collect more treasures. My children are going to kill me as I have enough for them to dispose of. However I have been buying a few very small clocks to feed my habit.

Just some thoughts of an old time clock collector.

Missy

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

To an extent the supply is not completely fixed, as more recent clocks become collectable. The Mastercrafters and United clocks come to mind, not to mention the Telechron electrics. There are plenty of them out there. And while they may be scorned by some, so were the turn-of-century black mantel clocks and kitchen clocks now considered quite respectable.

It does amaze me that despite the recent changes in the market, there are still deals to be found, even on eBay. Today at the local flea market I bought an Ansonia 8-day porcelain clock (the "Tandem," not in the book, but similar to the "Tempest,") for $20. Of course, it looks like it was in a flood, as the movement is rusted solid. Still....

Jeremy

 

[RJSoftware]

Jeremy;

Just curious how your going to handle freeing up the movement that is rusted solid.

I always find working the parts loose with water does wonders.

RJ

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

RJ,

Well, I haven't even taken the movement out of the case yet. First I have to get the hands off, and they're rusted in place. I doubt if water alone will work with this clock--the rust is THICK! I am thinking of either putting the whole movement in strong tea, as is discussed in several posts, or in Evapo-Rust, also discussed here. I'm not optimistic the movement can be salvaged, but these Ansonia movements are not hard to find. If I can borrow a digital camera, I'll post this in the "Latest Acquisition" thread.

Jeremy

 

[Thyme]

Well, I haven't even taken the movement out of the case yet. First I have to get the hands off, and they're rusted in place. I doubt if water alone will work with this clock--the rust is THICK! I am thinking of either putting the whole movement in strong tea, as is discussed in several posts, or in Evapo-Rust, also discussed here. I'm not optimistic the movement can be salvaged, but these Ansonia movements are not hard to find. If I can borrow a digital camera, I'll post this in the "Latest Acquisition" thread.

Jeremy

Jeremy,

I'd soak it.

But, before soaking it in anything , I'd ask myself what best to soak it IN: meaning - most benefit, least harm. Besides which, you first will need to remove those hands, easily gently, I presume...

To my mind, you won't go wrong in using a penetrating oil. Try using it on the hands, and proceed from there...

 

[RJSoftware]

I would first just try a few drops of water on the hands and then work them back and forth a bit.

Somehow, (I swear by this) water has a way of passing through rusted objects even better than penetrating oil.

Take the hands for example. A few drops and then work them back and forth.

As electrician I have been through this a hundred times at least.

What happens is we leave our tools in damp location and they rust up and are hard to open/close.

The hinges on the linemans pliars are tight. Try to use oil and it's useless. Still tight no matter how much you work it.

But spit a little in the crack and work it back and forth and it's good as new. (no Scottie, I was being clean when I said that...)

RJ

 

[Thyme]

Somehow, (I swear by this) water has a way of passing through rusted objects even better than penetrating oil.

Take the hands for example. A few drops and then work them back and forth.

As electrician I have been through this a hundred times at least.

What happens is we leave our tools in damp location and they rust up and are hard to open/close.

The hinges on the linemans pliars are tight. Try to use oil and it's useless. Still tight no matter how much you work it.

But spit a little in the crack and work it back and forth and it's good as new. (no Scottie, I was being clean when I said that...)

Arjay,

If what you are saying is so, there would be no need to ever buy penetrating oil...

The folks that make it would be selling cans of water or body fluids instead, maybe? (BTW, spit ain't just plain water - for what it's worth, it also contains enzymes...)

I've been dealing with seized/rusted machine items my whole life. If spit or water would sufficed, think of all the money I could have saved on penetrants...<?>

Arjay, I'll assume that you are a great electrician. But I'll also say <tongue in cheek> that as a machinist or mechanic... you're a great electrician. :biggrin:

 

[Jeremy Woodoff]

RJ, I will try a few drops of water on the hands--it can't hurt. I can see that the water solution might work if the rust is at a pivot point or other working surface, since the water would have some initial lubricating effect, and then working the object back and forth would scrape the rust scale off.

 

[fume happy]

The market is just whacked... i've seen plenty of gingerbreads in nice shape for the appropriate price. Over the weekend i saw an ogee case fitted with a quartz movement with a new dial stamped 1840(no keyholes). The veneer was stripped off the case. The price was that of a mint condition ogee. I've also seen gingers and black mantels for double what they should be worth. Then again, at a local flea market, i picked up a high medium condition black mantel clock from the 20's for 5 dollars. It's going to grandma for a christmas present after a waxing and servicing

 

[RJSoftware]

Jeremy; Exactly. Also, I believe it to be more conservative to restore the rusted parts. I have even restored rusted springs this way.

Somehow, the water gets in there. Absorbes quickly into the rust. With a little motion it seems to release the grip rust has.

After you get things to break free, you dry and oil it like normal.

For the springs I get them to release, dry them and use vaseline. Then I use clock as normal and the friction of the steel bands rubbing together works the surface smooth and spring becomes managable.

RJ

Honest Injun.
RJ

 

[Bruce Barnes]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The days of relying on books featuring a variety of clocks and manufacturers and feeling comfortable with the quoted values as valid market representations has long since passed,however, they are today (although somewhat impacted by imponderables)as they were then,merely a guide and an educational tool.
Yes the "Market" has changed tremendously and quite rapidly,and thus it is imcumbent upon the bidder/purchaser to be as aware as possible when making a decision.
The "Top Notch" items have always commanded the top dollar and always will,it is the marginal items that have crept forward value wise because of an ever diminishing supply and a somewhat uninformed purchasing public.The internet bourse floor is replete with these individuals.
How nice to have a venue like this one where one may still purchase a "needs help" clock and with the excellent help here and some personal perserverance bring a clock back for the following generations to have and enjoy.
Just my thoughts,
Bruce

 

[harold bain]

I have here a flyer from a local Howard Miller dealer about a clock sale (this is a few years old). A tambor type mantel clock with a Quartz dual chime movement, Windsor cherry finish, with volume control and night shut off, 17 inches wide. The sale price is $549.00 Cdn. I show this to my customers any time they think I am overcharging with a price of around $300.00 for a clock that is 100+ years old. Which is the real bargain??
Harold

 

[Kevin W.]

I was at a clock shop this summer here in Ottawa.I saw a clock i believe the name was Bulova, however it has a german movement i believe.This is a mantle clock, 3 trains.The price on it was $700 canadian.I think that is pretty steep also.

 

[ChrisBeattie]

This is my feeling on this issue;

I beleive that the prices in Trans books are relative to a clock that is in near mint to mint condition. I trust those numbers but you also have to reduce those numbers if the clock is not near mint/mint. I do not thik the prices of clocks are (or should be) reduced to what they are selling for on ebay beacuse in a lot of cases we are not factoring in things such as shipping costs which should be added to the total. Also, some or most of us on this board, fix or repair our own clocks. When you factor that into the price it is not reduced at all.

As for the middle or lower end clocks gaining in value. I do not feel that is accurate either. I go to local auctions and see clocks in good running order (such as black mantle and gingerbread) all the time sell for between 50 -100 bucks. These clocks do not need any work and their "book value" may be $200 or more.

Clocks are selling for whatever the current buyer is willing to pay for something. That is sometimes high and sometimes lower. See my post titled "Interesting Auction Story" for an in-depth look at what I am saying about what people will buy and how much they pay. I find it hard to believe that people are not bidding higher on nearly 200 year old clocks with wooden works. But I also would not pay more than 50-75 bucks on a black mantle clock that I deem a dime a dozen.

My long winded point (sorry about that) is that any particular clock is only worth what you would pay for it at that point in time and what your preference is. Some people go crazy over the Lux clocks and I see them on ebay selling for upwards of $300 or more. I personally would not pay more than $100 for one of these clocks but does that mean that the clock is worth $100 or $300? If Trans book tells you that same clock is worth $200, then who is correct? It's value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

This is strictly my opinion - I in no way mean to upset or offend anyone.
Chris

 

[Bruce Barnes]

Chris,excellent post.........my reference to middle/low end quality clocks was predicated upon activity as viewed on the internet,not at local auctions where as you state "sometimes" you may do very well.
Bruce

 

[Ck]

All Very Valid Points. Myself, I have noticed in the last couple of weeks Prices of "Decent" Clocks have gone up considerably. I have attributed it to Christmas Buying and am Scrambling to get several ready! ...lol

 

[Mike Phelan]

Interesting. Napoleons here from the 1930s, in car boot sales and second hand markets and in various states of disrepair fetch £10-£60.
No change there.

All will last longer than the modern rubbish.

 

[harold bain]

Mike, I think that the younger generation just doesn't have the appreciation for things that need occasional maintenance, like mechanical clocks. Much easier to buy another quartz and throw out the old one!!!
I had a customer bring in a cheap quartz wall clock to repair. He said he knows it isn't worth anything, but his wife likes it enough that he was willing to spend $30.00 for me to replace the movement. He looked like someone who could afford a decent clock.
Harold

 

[Bill Chalfant]

$2 – quartz movement
$30 – to replace quartz movement
Happy Wife – priceless!

You must be single.

 

[harold bain]

Bill, LOL. Not single, and too old to break in a new one I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but you are quite right :biggrin:
Harold

 

[Mike Phelan]

Here:
Lots of mechanical clocks that make noises - happy wife.

Too many quartz clocks or ones that do not tick/strike/chime/cuckoo - possible divorce. :frown:

 

[lamarw]

Well, there were some great clock deals had at the Flomaton Live Auction tonight (Nov. 3rd) on eBay. I had trouble believing how cheap some of the weight regulators and other great clocks sold for, and the the buyer commission was less than normal (15%). I got some great bottom feeder deals to include two complete wooden movement OGs with great labels, a mostly complete tripple decker case, and a French carriage clock for a total, to include buyer fee, of less than four hundred and fifty bucks. There were a number of complete and nice looking mantle clocks that did not even get bids at thirty to forty bucks.

I only hope some of the rest of you scored with the higher end stuff at great deals. Lot of internet buyers.

 

[Chris Radano]

At this point in time, antique clock prices are affected by ebay. Generally, it seems like clock prices at auctions have declined a bit. Sellers on ebay are hurting clock prices, and demand. A couple of reasons: very high starting bids, and too many reserve prices. Both kill interest in buyers, IMO. Seller's lack of confidence is hurting the demand. The clocks that have created the most buyer interest are well, and accurately listed clocks- with low starting bids, and no reserve. When ebay had more activity in the recent past, those clocks that had reserves were more likely to reach their reserves, because there was a better selection of clocks available. The statements I have just made are very general in nature, and there are exceptions. For me, just some observations.