Is anybody know what this BWCCO mark mean?

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by jlin496, Jul 11, 2016.

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  1. jlin496

    jlin496 Registered User

    Jul 11, 2016
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    I had this 18s pocket watch, looks minty and run great. But I don't understand the hallmark mean, can anyone help.
    I would be really appreciated.
     

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  2. Pvt-Public

    Pvt-Public Registered User

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    Brooklyn Watch Case Co. maybe?
     
  3. LloydB

    LloydB Registered User

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    Brooklyn Watch Case Co. (but the mark isn't in Mikrolisk)
     
  4. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    #4 Kent, Jul 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2018
    Hi jlin496:

    Welcome to the NAWCC American Pocket Watch Message Board!

    I believe the trade mark (these aren't hallmarks as they have no legal standing such as English and Continental hallmarks do) was used by the [main="Brooklyn Watch Case Co."]Brooklyn Watch Case Co.[/main] to denote their Eagle 8K gold cases.

    81547.jpg
     
  5. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I am going to offer a different opinion. I do not think this is from the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. Brooklyn was an American company located in New York City.
    First, the "18" (implied carat mark or just case size??) looks very European to me. Second, I don't believe that the small stamp is of an eagle. To me it looks like a squirrel, facing left, with his bushy tail on the right.
    I would favor some European manufacturer for this case. Does it have an American movement in it? What is the age of the movement?
     
  6. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Jerry, I would have to disagree with you. I've had two of these 8k eagle marked cases with Illinois
    movements in them, with exact same logo and marking. They both came out slightly above
    8k.

    I think Kent is 100% correct.

    Keith
     
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  7. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I sit corrected then. Still looks like a squirrel to me. Can someone post an image of a clearer mark that looks like an eagle?
     
  8. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I'll look in my old photo file Jerry. That particular eagle had swept wings like no other.

    Keith
     
  9. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    If I recall correctly, there were a significant number of fake (but period) Brooklyn cases made. Perhaps this is one?
     
  10. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I'm with you Jerry, looks like a squirrel to me as well.
     
  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    My B.W.C.Co cases had swept wings as shown in Kent's Ad. Here is one of the fakes Greg
    eludes to, (I think)........poor photo though.

    Keith

    100_4766 (800x600).jpg
     
  12. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    I agree. Squirrel.
     
  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Now granted Jerry, I did not think of a squirrel, but if you look at the B.W.C.Co stencil, I have been
    familiar with that. However if one thinks of squirrel, it does have the appearance. But, I also agree,
    our answer should be for the OP'S question.

    Keith
     
  14. jlin496

    jlin496 Registered User

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    I don't think it was eagle, more or less like squirrel, but BWCCO did not have squirrel stamp, that's why I was searching for help. The case is 10-12k tested, movement is Elgin and dated 1885, it was beautiful, minty and no dented and scratch case.
     

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  15. rolandantrobus

    rolandantrobus Registered User

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    Beautiful watch. Doesn't look like a fake case to me and the BWCCO mark must surely be the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. Anyone else out there have one with a squirrel mark?
     
  16. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #16 Keith R..., Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
    Gorgeous case!!!


    BTW, This case maker also supplied solid gold cases for early E Howard key winds.

    Keith
     
  17. jlin496

    jlin496 Registered User

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    What is BTW stand for? Is there any web site or intro?
    Jan
     
  18. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    "By the way"

    See: TxtDrop.com
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    BTW is short typing for "By the way".

    ^thanks Kent

    Keith
     
  20. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    Just FYI - here's a similar Eagle BWCCo case mark with a number near this one ...

    BWCCo Eagle.jpg
     
  21. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    ^Bingo, thanks Dave.

    Keith
     
  22. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    #22 Jerry Treiman, Jul 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
    Thanks, Dave, for the image of a probably genuine Brooklyn Watch Case Co. "Eagle" case marking. Now compare the two --

    BWCCo_comp.jpg -- Dave's is on the right.

    Is anyone else still suspicious of the one on the left? Is the squirrel in the octagon really supposed to be an eagle, or just look enough like a genuine eagle stamp to mislead the buyer? There are enough differences to demonstrate that it certainly was not made with the same punch. Would Brooklyn have had several of these stamps made for their branding or would they have just had one?

    The company initials were also made with different stamps. You can see numerous differences in the details.

    How about the serial numbers? The fonts are distinctly different, especially on the one and the three, indicating that a different set of number stamps was used. Also, the numbers are stamped in a straight line on the left and in an arc on the right.

    --- I still lean towards a counterfeit, although it does appears to be a quality case and nothing to be ashamed of.
     
  23. jlin496

    jlin496 Registered User

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    Counterfeit case normally was fake gold, this one not only over 8k, but 10-12k tested.
    Jan
     
  24. Marty101

    Marty101 Registered User
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    Dave and Jerry-thank you.
    This is the best counterfeit case stamp I have ever seen That Squirrel could have easily been a badly stamped or worn Eagle. Looking at them side by side leaves no doubt.
    There also seems to be no doubt that is a quality case! What's going on? Why not take the credit for making such a nice case yourself?
     
  25. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I'd be amazed to learn that a case company the size of Brooklyn only had one set of stamps. I would expect that as volume grew additional stamps were added at different times and that these would not necessarily be completely identical to earlier stamps.
     
  26. Marty101

    Marty101 Registered User
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    Kent,I played around some filling in "missing" areas but get a pretty sad eagle looking squirrel wannabe figure.
    -But you have a good point and I hope to see an example. One would be enough to give that rodent hope of getting off the ground.
     
  27. Paul Sullivan

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    #27 Paul Sullivan, Jul 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
    I don't believe it's counterfeit.

    Remember that you looking a picture of the marking and don't actually have the case in hand and looking at the marking with a loupe. Here's an example of two cases I have with a very different look.

    Case back-tile.jpg

    Both are A.W.C.Co. cases but because the one on the right had no "A.W.C.Co." and the stamped logo looked like an eagle with it's wings spread looking to it's right, I thought the "Cashier W.Co." made it :). When I came across the encyclopedia article on the A.W.C.Co. and saw they had a "Cashier" grade I checked the case again very closely, and saw that the lower part of the wheel was poorly struck and missing it's spokes and the styles are very dissimilar.
     
  28. Marty101

    Marty101 Registered User
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    Paul you're example makes me re-reconsider! :)
     
  29. Dave Chaplain

    Dave Chaplain Registered User
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    FWIW - I've noted the following BWCCo marks:
    - Eagle (the type shown in this thread)
    - Eagle (more like a colonial America eagle mark)
    - Eagle (widespread wings)
    - Deer
    - Lion
    - several GF marks, e.g, Granger, Windsor, Avalon, Bristol ...
    - a Warranted 14K and a Warranted 18K mark, without other marks

    And I'm sure I've seen only a relatively small sample of BWCCo marks.
     
  30. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
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    Look at page 53 of Niebling's book for another view of the Brooklyn Eagle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oops, I meant page 63.
     
  31. Kerry Chipman

    Kerry Chipman Registered User
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    I have this a PW with this "Brooklyn Squirrel" The gold tests low like under 14K. If the 18 means that it's supposed to be 18K... that's bad. Also I tested on the inner cover and it wore through to copper almost immediately. In any case did anyone definitively decide that the Squirrel was false? I believe mine looks exactly like Jerry Treiman's above.
    What about the movement? Maybe someone put a good movement in a fake case?

    Howard Keystone (4 of 7).JPG Howard Keystone (1 of 1).JPG
     
  32. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I have never tested a case, doesn't this damage the case?


    Rob
     
  33. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
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    Well if it is really an eagle, the eagle cases made by Brooklyn watch case company are solid 8k gold.

    There were also forgeries.

    See here for more information, pretty interesting article from the encyclopedia detailing the company.

    Brooklyn Watch Case Co.
     
  34. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Registered User
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    If you use electronic testing at two places on a 14k gold filled case, won't it show as 14K gold?

    Jerry Freedman
     

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