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Is 26 bushings too many?

NEW65

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I’ve just overhauled an hermle 1151 code N.
I fitted 26 bushings!! Reckon that’s the most I’ve ever done in any movement I’ve rebuilt!
Has anyone else fitted that many before?
Where do you a draw line -was this too many?
Works very well now though :)
 

NEW65

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Thanks Frank - I find that any clock movement needing more than 12 -15 bushings is quite excessive. We all have our individual ways of bushing , some of us are quicker at it than others, but this is my actual job and it does take a while to overhaul a really worn movement hence my query of where does one draw a line?
Nearly every movement I do is hermle which are plentiful and available to buy new. The new ones aren’t great quality now but fitting a new one is sometimes the best way to go (I think) as it can save lots of time and money.
Thanks :)
 

Willie X

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Someone has a current thread where they replaced 26 bushings, to find out the platform escapement was bad ...

I took in a Kieninger KSU that had 14 bronze bushings and after running for 11 years needed about 10 more!

Willie
 
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Dick Feldman

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Me thinks that the determination of how many bushings are feasible should be made before the movement is disassembled.
If too many is too many, then a different approach should be established.
There is always the quartz alternative.
Many people today would rather change batteries once a year vs. winding a clock every week.
Dick
 

Altashot

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I charge a certain amount to service a certain movement as a base price. I then add repairs to that base cost. That many bushing would likely cost more than a new movement, in which case, I recommend a new movement. Of course, if they are not available, I bush all that is needed. I’ve personally never had to bush an entire movement but I have seen it.

How many is too many? I’d reverse the question and ask how many is not enough…

M.
 

shutterbug

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For me, if it needs a bushing, I put in a bushing. Makes no difference to me how many are needed. I include the bushings in the estimate.
 

Dave T

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As I read this thread, I keep wondering about how you would be sure you're maintaining proper depthing, if you replace so many bushings in one clock.
I know you would test fit each gear as you proceed, but what if you're gradually shifting the fit up the train?
Are these good questions, or am I completely off track?
 

R. Croswell

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As I read this thread, I keep wondering about how you would be sure you're maintaining proper depthing, if you replace so many bushings in one clock.
I know you would test fit each gear as you proceed, but what if you're gradually shifting the fit up the train?
Are these good questions, or am I completely off track?
That is a very important consideration. Of course, if the pivot hole is worn badly enough to require a bushing the depthing is probably already off. If one's "bushing method" accurately locates the hole for the bushing based on the unworn portion of the original hole, then the depthing will at least be close to original. If one bushes every pivot hole, including those with very little wear, then there is a real possibility that more will be lost from introducing depthing errors than will be gained from bushing the pivot hole. It really depends on how accurate one's method is.

RC
 

Dave T

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Good, that confirms what I was thinking.
The biggest challenge I face when replacing bushings is trying to be sure it goes where it should when it came from the factory. I use a Bergeon bushing tool, but it's difficult to get the center properly positioned.
I've studied all the procedures for finding the proper center, but still it seems to require a bit of guesswork.
And I don't have any depthing tools.
 

shutterbug

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If you use the centering tool (verify that it's made accurately), you can hold down the tool while you lock down the plate. Then push the centering tool down into the hole a few times. If it binds at all, redo it. Otherwise it should be centered correctly.
 

Calvin H. Huynh

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If you use the centering tool (verify that it's made accurately), you can hold down the tool while you lock down the plate. Then push the centering tool down into the hole a few times. If it binds at all, redo it. Otherwise it should be centered correctly.
Is this in a bushing machines or can this be done with the hand bushing?
 

Dave T

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Is this in a bushing machines or can this be done with the hand bushing?
I think he's referring to the attachments for the Bergeon. It usually comes as a set with the Bergeon 6200. I have those and use them, but if a bushing is badly worn the center is not always that obvious even with the center finder. To me anyway.
 

shutterbug

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Yep, bushing tool. The center finder will do a good job of finding the center for you but you have to hold it in place with some pressure while you tighten the plates. Then test it as I stated above. If it's not right, it will bind just a little as you lower and lift it a few times.
 
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R. Croswell

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I think he's referring to the attachments for the Bergeon. It usually comes as a set with the Bergeon 6200. I have those and use them, but if a bushing is badly worn the center is not always that obvious even with the center finder. To me anyway.
If you examine the movement carefully you will see that the worn pivot holes are "egg shaped". The driving power forces the pivot to one side of the hole and over time that side of the hole wears forming the small end of the "egg". The large end of the "egg" is what is left of the original unworn part of the pivot hole. Under ideal conditions the Bergeon center finder will "find" the large end of the "egg", but if the hole is extremely worn so the hole looks more like a slot than an egg, then you may need to position the center point toward the end where the original hole was.

That's the easy part. Now you have to deal with the limitations of "bushing machines" generally. It's not a milling machine and there is usually a little "slop" or side to side movement of the reamer and the quill of the bushing machine. Simply inserting the reamer and turning the crank will not ream the hole on true center in most cases. The oval shape of the hole will tend to cause the reamer to cut both the worn and unworn sides of the hole more or less evenly forcing the reamed hole to be off center. There have been a number of suggestions regarding how to solve this problem, but they all result in the unworn side of the hole being cut away first until the hole is round before continuing to ream the hole to side. With the Bergeon machine centered up on the original hole, I start with the smallest reamer that will go into the hole and cut, then turn the crank to position the cutting edge of the reamer to cut or "nibble" the unworn end of the oval hole until the hole is round. You will feel the resistance to turning the crank as the cuts. Use a back-and-forth motion of the crank until the hole is "rounded up", then use 360 rotations with progressively larger reamers until the hole is the right size. It is a mistake to begin with the final size reamer; start with the smallest reamer that will cut work up.

As for hand bushing methods, I never do hand bushing unless it is absolutely necessary, but you need to accomplish the same thing - "nibble" or file the unworn end of the hole until it is rounded up before reaming to size. It is largely an eyeball operation. With a mill or bushing machine, the original hole center is located, and the plates clamped "on center". With hand methods, once you start filing or nibbling your only reference point to the original hole center is lost. A lot will depend on your skill and good eyes. For hand nibbling I find that the appropriate size regular "D" shape reamer in a hand handle works better than a file because one can feel when it is cutting the high spot and when it begins cutting the entire diameter. It seems that those with the least skills often benefit the most from the best machines while some who call themselves professionals have used hand bushing methods for years. I'm afraid that's not me in either case.

RC
 
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NEW65

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Thanks chaps.
I very rarely have to fit less than 15 bushings on any used movement. The HM Kieninger that I just fitted 26 bushings in was a bit out the norm. If I had have had a better less worn movement I’d have fitted that instead but I had no substitute and no other option than to overhaul this one. It took me a while as I’m still fitting bushings by hand. However this movement now works like new so worth the time and effort.
I know bushing by hand is not used by many of us on here but I just find it really straightforward and do a good job every time.
Thanks everyone :)
 
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