International Time Recorder Pendulum Help

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by robh5, Mar 30, 2005.

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  1. robh5

    robh5 Guest

    I am restoreing an International Time Recording Co. Master Regulator type "S" circa 1920.I have to replace the pendulam rod.Does anyone have the total lentgh of just the wood? Luckly the person that had the clock before saved the metal.
    Also does anyone know what the weight of the pendulum should be? I beleive this one is original,brass covered and 8" in dia. Thanks.
     
  2. robh5

    robh5 Guest

    I am restoreing an International Time Recording Co. Master Regulator type "S" circa 1920.I have to replace the pendulam rod.Does anyone have the total lentgh of just the wood? Luckly the person that had the clock before saved the metal.
    Also does anyone know what the weight of the pendulum should be? I beleive this one is original,brass covered and 8" in dia. Thanks.
     
  3. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

    Oct 9, 2000
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    Okay, guys, I told Robert he could get an answer on this bulletin board--certainly someone has a Model S with a wood pendulum they can measure!

    Joe
     
  4. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

    Feb 19, 2002
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    Hi there,
    Sounds like a job for chap 175 (Time Recorders)

    Bernie is the president and can be reached at

    bernietr@earthlink.net

    Happy hunting,
     
  5. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    Reference to an "International type S master Regulator" doesn't ring any bells in this corner. Most IBM aka International products are identified by a model number or a generic name such as Time Recorder, Job Cost Recorder, Attendance Recorder, (clocking-in clock in England) Master Clock, Slave Clock etc.

    But more to your missing pendulum stick. Usually, there is tell-tale scratch marks on the back board where the pendulum bob or the rating nut has scratched. This should tell you very closely what the length of the stick, suspension spring, bob and spike should be.

    Lacking scratch marks on the back board, the clock may have a beat plate. Usually the spike of the pendulum rod points to the middle of the beat plate.

    Lastly there's a fool proof, no guesswork, no trial and error method to determine the theoretical length of the assembly from the point of flexiture of the suspension spring to the center of mass of the rod and bob. It involves counting the teeth on the upper time train wheels and pinions and some math.

    The task is even simpler if the clock has a seconds bit dial. Just count the number of strokes of the verge crutch that is required for one revolution of the second hand. The number of strokes is equal to the "beats per minute" of the movement. From beats per minute, the theoretical length of the pendulum can be determined from tables.

    For what it's worth, if your clock in question is a time recorder with the printer underneath, I doubt seriously that the bob would be an eight inch diameter. That's more like the bob of a 60 beat Master clock.

    Tell us more about your clock.
     
  6. John Odom

    John Odom Guest

    The International Time Recording Company made Master clocks as well as time recorders. I don't know any of the model designations. One of them used an 8" bob like my IBM 25, but I don't know which model. I have an extra seconds pendulum from an IBM 25, but it is "somewhere" in the loft of the shop, and not really accessible.

    I have made seconds pendula using the methods presented by Eckmill.
     
  7. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

    Oct 9, 2000
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    The Model "S" was the top of the line ITR Master Clock, introduced in 1919. It was the same size as the Model "C" and used the same 10 lb brass bob for the pendulum or the same 15 lb mercury bob. Unlike the "C" which used an electromagnet to wind a small spring, the "S" used an AC/DC motor to wind two weights which would drive the clock for a week when fully wound. My guess is that the wood rod from a "C" is close enough in size to be used as a template for the "S". Model "S" clocks are very rare but there are a lot of "C" models out there in collections. Measure up, guys.

    Here's a picture of Robert's Model S movement.
     
  8. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Joe, that movement and motor assembly looks identical to IBM's model 35 master clock. My shop manual does not mention the length of the pendulum, unfortunately. It just mentions that there were three types of pendulums used (brass ball with a wooden stick, invar metal with metal rod, and mercurial with metal rod). Harold
     
  9. robh5

    robh5 Guest

    I found a collector that has several of these clocks and I finally got a measurement.For anybody that wants to know the lentgh is 40.5".
    Thanks, Robert,robh5.
     
  10. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

    Oct 9, 2000
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    Harold, pretty amazing isn't it that there were almost no changes for 20 years in the movement? Now that is getting value out of the orignal engineering and tooling! If I am not mistaken, a difference between your 35 movement and the early "S" movement is the limit switch on the right side of the movement (right side when facing the front of the movement). Yours has the little round brass plug cover on the lower left is my guess and the "S" has it on the upper right. Also the S has "ITR" stamped on the movement; the 35 does not. See the attached picture.

    Joe
     
  11. John Odom

    John Odom Guest

    Someone really loved soft solder didn't they, Joe!
     
  12. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Joe, I wish I did have a 35 master clock! All I have is a not very detailed picture in the old shop manual. I have serviced several of these, although they were not very common. I will always remember what happened to a fellow CE when he tried to adjust the wind-up switch. Up went the weights, and before he could do anything they snapped the cable and went through the bottom of the clock! And he had 20 years more experience than me at the time, being an ex IBM CE. IBM did make efficient use of proven movements over the years, not changing very much. Harold
     
  13. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

    Oct 9, 2000
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    Harold, I saw the same problem in the IBM Granfather clock now at the IBM plant in Poughkeepsie. The board at the bottom of the case had been fixed a number of times from weights hitting it from five feet above when someone must have done the same thing.

    This is a beautiful clock though. It had been in the entrance way to Tom Watson Sr's office in NYC and later ended up at the Kenyon House in Poughkeepsie (the first mainframe development lab and a beautiful old mansion). When IBM sold off much of its property in Poughkeepsie in 1993 this clock was put out with the trash on the back porch with other debris. I got a call from a fellow IBMer who saw it there, so we grabbed it and restored it and it now is in the general manager's office in Poughkeepsie (I hope still ticking away). We actually got a permit from the NYSDEC to move the mercury pendulum back into an IBM facility.
     
  14. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Joe, one of the 35's I remember working on was in the lobby of IBM Canada in Toronto. They were still running a minute impulse clock system as well as two outside tower clocks. That was about 35 years ago. At the time I don't think we were aware of the mercury hazzard. They have since moved to new facilities and another company occupies the old building. I don't know what happened to the clock. There was always a waiting list among CE's for trade-in pendulum master clocks, so they usually found good homes. Harold
     
  15. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

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    I've received four off-line emails related to the IBM clock in Poughkeepsie I mention above. Yes, it's the clock that was at the IBM Country Club in Poughkeepise for a year. I first moved it there after restoring it. When the club was sold to Casperkill, I moved the clock to the general manager's office in the IBM plant. Since I now live in Kansas I do not know if one can still see it on request.
     
  16. John Odom

    John Odom Guest

    I loved the stories. I rescued my IBM 25. Whad does CE stand for? Clock Engineer?

    I wish one of you Ex IBM/Simplex CEs would take the IBM model list in the clock corner and annotate it and post it somewhere. The comments and notes would be so valuable for the rest of us.
     
  17. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi John. CE is short for customer engineer, the glorified title given to the service department technicians. I think there could be a bulletin article or a book around the various models of clocks produced by IBM and other companies over the years. I think the message board is running out of room for large posts like this would be. Perhaps IBM might co-operate with a research grant to anyone with enough spare time to undertake this task. Harold
     
  18. Joe Gensheimer

    Joe Gensheimer Registered User

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    As I have noted in my various Bulletin articles on time recorders, I have received comments from a significant number of our NAWCC members who would like someone with technical knowledge (obviously not me if you have read my articles) to write about the technical aspects of time recorders and master clock systems. I agree with Harold that there must be guys or gals out there with CE experience who could that. (By the way, I was not a CE. I got to IBM when IBM acquired a small start-up I was working for. I actually was rejected by IBM when I applied directly for a job much earlier. I of course posted that rejection letter in my office at IBM.)
     
  19. robh5

    robh5 Guest

    Hi,
    Just wanted to post a few pictures of the Internatinal Time Recorder Master clock,Model "S" I finally got restored with some help from the folks on this board.
    After I got a pendulum lenght, repaired the case and had a new escape wheel made it was ready to go.Biggest problam was finding a place to hang it,rather large.With the label info on the back I know who sold it and were it ended up and when,1921.I will have to go the the local Historical Society and see if I can find a picture of this clock in use at the time.They have alot of pictures from this business.
    First picture is a before shot with the awful base someone made for it,the rest after.
    Thanks again for the help, Bob.beforeafterwww.rhaffner.com/international2.jpgwww.rhaffner.com/international3.jpg
     
  20. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi Bob. Well done. It is good to see another of these magnificent clocks saved for future generations to admire. Harold
     
  21. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Trying to get a idea as to bob weight for this movement.

    mont clock 1.jpg mont clock 3.jpg Mont clock.jpg
     

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