Interesting barometer with fusee movement

[jboger]

I am back from a nearby auction of the contents of house that had been (yes, past tense) owned by a man of means. His 1977 Silver Shadow Rolls Royce sold for $25k, for example. But prices were actually quite reasonable, even low. The man had obviously been an Anglophile as most of the objects originated in the British Isles, including the only item I bought, a barometer. When I spotted the movement, which has every appearance of being original, I decided to bid.

I have only taken photos to document the condition as received by me. Here are five of them. I have not looked up the maker or retailer of this barometer to discover when he was active, nor have I looked at the signature on the movement. It seems to be original to the case. I would like to remove the contents of the case before I work on it. It has some smallish issues with the veneer. That long glass tube makes me nervous, not because it contains Hg, but because I might break the glass--and then where would I be?

John

 

[jboger]

I see I didn't post a picture of the long glass tube filled with mercury. Inside the case is a long glass tube filled with mercury. It makes me nervous.

 

[roughbarked]

If it is red, the thermometer is not filled with mercury but rather a volatile organic compound, usually red-colored ethanol.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The mercury is not sealed in the tube. It is held there by the atmospheric pressure balancing the weight of the mercury and the vacuum at the top of the tube.

I bought mine with the tube broken and gave the glassblower at Brock University a bottle of Scotch for making me a new one back in 1967.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I am back from a nearby auction of the contents of house that had been (yes, past tense) owned by a man of means. His 1977 Silver Shadow Rolls Royce sold for $25k, for example. But prices were actually quite reasonable, even low. The man had obviously been an Anglophile as most of the objects originated in the British Isles, including the only item I bought, a barometer. When I spotted the movement, which has every appearance of being original, I decided to bid.

I have only taken photos to document the condition as received by me. Here are five of them. I have not looked up the maker or retailer of this barometer to discover when he was active, nor have I looked at the signature on the movement. It seems to be original to the case. I would like to remove the contents of the case before I work on it. It has some smallish issues with the veneer. That long glass tube makes me nervous, not because it contains Hg, but because I might break the glass--and then where would I be?

John

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I have seen quite a few barometers like this. Typically, from the UK. Called "wheel" barometers. Have seen quite a few of those with a timepiece feature as in yours.

None of your pictures show the top. I surmise it has a broken arch top with a finial??

The dials are engraved and silvered. Note the larger hand with a knob. You would turn that so it correlates with the last reading of the barometer and then you could ascertain how the reading has changed over time.

The clock is driven by essentially a small watch movement. When you say "fusee", are you referring to the watch movement??

The thermometer is a "spirit" thermometer. That refers to the colored volatile liquid it contains. I believe typically dyed alcohol.

It has a "spirit" level. Called that for the same reason.

There should be a mercury filled glass tube by which the barometric pressure is read. Rather fragile. The barometer must be handled carefully. If the mercury is allowed to bounce up and down, that can break the glass. Not too many people around these days who will blow a replacement for a bottle of scotch.

If the glass tube contains mercury, A BAROMETER OF THIS TYPE SHOULD NEVER BE LAID FLAT!!! It damages the mechanism, causes separation in the mercury column, and can lead to spillage as the tube must be open to the atmosphere and so on. If the mercury is gone, doesn't matter.

There are some good reference books on barometers. I have them but I'm too lazy to try to find them.

A google search may reveal info about the maker/retailer. Interestingly, many UK barometers have Italian names!

See this thread for some info about that and more:

A barometer.

Barometers do have connections with horology. Pairings of a clock with a barometer, typically of the aneroid type, are not that uncommon. Some important clock makers made barometers. For example, there are known examples by such luminaries as Dent and Tompion. Barometers, as well as other...

mb.nawcc.org

That posting also has the names of the books to which I refer.

RM

 

[jboger]

I've been focussed on the watch movement. The mercury tube is intact, outside of the case, laying flat with a cork in one end. I will stand it upright--now.

I have removed the movement. It is quite dirty. Also fully wound. I've included two pictures. One is of the pillars to help date the movement. Has a Bosley type regulator.

I don't think the movement was ever for a pocket watch, but will look at more closely. Is the movement older that the case?

 

[jboger]

The glass column is intact. However, the column of mercury has been interrupted. It is safely stowed for now.

 

[roughbarked]

Wasn't it red? Mercury is sillver. The red stuff is alcohol.

 

[zedric]

Isn't the red liquid a spirit level?

 

[roughbarked]

Isn't the red liquid a spirit level?

Yes and so is the thermometer.

https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/img_3794-jpg.762017/

 

[jboger]

All true.

But inside the case was ( removed it) a long glass tube, crooked at one end, and open (but with a cork therein), that contains a broken column of mercury. I have not investigated how the barometer works but suspect the rising and falling column of mercury--due to changes in atmospheric pressure--somehow operates it, that is, moves the hands on the large dial at bottom. And yes, the spirit level and thermometer both contain a red fluid, and is probably ethanol, as mentioned above, due to its expansive properties (with temperature).

I will photograph the column later so people can see it. It is no longer inside the case. It is a miracle that it has survived.

 

[jboger]

I remembered that I took a few photos yesterday of the back. It has a long door that runs the length of the barometer. In the last photo you can see the top bulb of the thermometer; it's a reservoir for mercury. I guess as atmospheric pressure increases, the column of mercury, were things working properly, would be pushed up into this reservoir. You can see more of the glass rod in the second photo, the one with the movement.

i'm afraid some of these pictures are out of focus. I will take better ones later today. I believe I can lay the glass column on its side as the mercury column is already broken. It's been a long while since I thought about atmospheric pressure, inches or millimeters of mercury, feet of water, psi, millibars, Pascals, and so forth. Don't know if I want to hit the books again.

Note that the hole for the movement is not completely round, that a bit of wood was removed to accommodate the mainspring barrel and fusee chain.I don't know the purpose of the little pulley, but I think it has something to do with the barometer portion of this instrument.

I can not make out the complete last name. It's the first letter of the surname that gives me trouble. Wm (P)armiloe? And why the little zero above the number 137


John

 

[roughbarked]

Ah. So you were talking about the mercury in the barometer, not the thermometer.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I would be very careful with that mercury and seriously consider getting it disposed by a hazmat team. If it breaks you home will an unsellable superfund site.

I a clock dealer I know had a mercury pendulum spill in his car. The insurance company totaled it.

FWIW I too worked with a mercury in a tube. Before I put mercuty in it I noticed that the glass was cracked. I put the tube in my car and drove to Cambridge Mass to a glass blower shop and got it fixed. This was a "U tube" manometer which we used to measure rough vacuum pressure. Watching all that glass workign was quite and experience.

Unless you are really into mercury barometers, you should consider getting the stuff out of your home or shop.

I have another friend who sold is mercury pendulum regulator because he feared that a burglar might spill the mercury and similarly make his home uninhabitable,

 

[jboger]

Dr. Jon:

Your words of caution are well taken. I don't think the vapor pressure of liquid mercury is all that high; it's not that volatile. But I will look into this a bit more. One possibility would be to drain the mercury but preserve the glass. This would render the barometer useless but keep the integrity of piece.

 

[Dr. Jon]

My view is that the mercury after a cleaned up spill i snot that much of real hazard but the legal hazard it as I described. The hazard argument is that the mercury continually breaks in to smaller droplets increasing the surface area for evaporation.

Whether the concern correct or not, if local health authoroites learn of a mercury spill in hour home they will condemn it.

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

I can not make out the complete last name. It's the first letter of the surname that gives me trouble. Wm (P)armiloe? And why the little zero above the number 137

William Farmiloe, working in 45 Great Sutton Street, London, 1799-1809. I think the 'o' is just part of the abbreviation for 'Number'.

The hand on these mercury barometers was run by a float on the surface of the mercury in the cistern at the bottom end of the tube; the pulley and thread are part of this mechanism.

Regards,

Graham

 

[gmorse]

Hi RM,

Interestingly, many UK barometers have Italian names!

Yes, many do, perhaps carrying on the tradition of Evangelista Torricelli, the 17th century inventor of this type of barometer who gave his name to the partial vacuum, (there's some mercury vapour in there), at the sealed end of the tube.

Regards,

Graham

 

[LloydB]

Dr. Jon:

Your words of caution are well taken. I don't think the vapor pressure of liquid mercury is all that high; it's not that volatile. But I will look into this a bit more. One possibility would be to drain the mercury but preserve the glass. This would render the barometer useless but keep the integrity of piece.

IIRC, liquid mercury isn't particularly dangerous... unless
ingested, etc. Its compounds, vapors, are another matter,
but not a concern here, I'd think.

For your reassurance, a length of plastic or cardboard tubing,
taped at the ends, would protect the glass .

Large mercury thermometers, for Labs, were always provided
with protective metal tubes.

 

[jboger]

Yes, Graham, a small glass float that moved up and down with the mercury. It was attached to a thread traditionally made of silk. The other end of the thread as attached to a weight

 

[jboger]

Graham:

I forgot to thank you for your identification. My older brother was working on it. He figured out the F in Farmiloe but he proposed someone who had died in the 1770s--too early for this movement. Gloucestershire, he thought. You're dates make good sense given the Sheraton or Hepplewhite style of the case.

I removed the dial to expose the dial plate. It seems to be screwed onto the pillar plate with three screws. Elsewhere on this Forum I have made strong statements that any sedan clock with a round movement probably had a replaced movement. Well, this is a barometer, not a sedan clock, but now I'm not so sure.

 

[DaveyG]

Should it be necessary almost all of the parts for restoration of wheel barometers can be purchased - in the UK at least. I think that the a need for glass blowers will only be on the odd occasion of special need. There are several retailers of parts on this side of the pond and at least one that I know of who will make mercury and thermometer tubes. 'Here' is one parts retailer. I do think it unlikely that anyone would consider shipping mercury internationally.

 

[Raymond101]

Hg oxidize is extremely poisonous and is an accumulative poison. Similar to lead poisoning . Except mercury has another trick it will desolve any metal including inert metals ie tin .gold. silver. Aluminum. BRASS . Glass is safe but it will make the glass silvered . Touching mercury with bare Hands the mercury will pass though skin almost instantly and will not wash off ..
The cork should NOT be removed. If the cork is dried out the vapor is highly corrosive. If you are a smoker and smoke for 60yrs . Mercury will do the same it in a day .
Have it removed by professional.
Live long & well .
Warning also don't try to use any cleaning agents around Hg as it reacts violently . As much as a 0.1gm with certain houses hold cleaners will put you in hospital..

 

[jboger]

Thanks to all for the various cautions with regards to mercury. The glass column is now wrapped in styrofoam and inserted in a strong cardboard tube capped at either end. This assembly has then been placed inside a strong plastic bag and the whole thing stored upright in a large plastic tub, so the mercury is doubly even triply contained. Everything is labelled, including which end should be up. Furthermore it is stored in a closet that only I access.

DaveyG, thank you for that link to the parts seller. Every part seems to be available (maybe not the case) so that I could assemble my own! Even distilled mercury is for sale. I note that a Mr. Phillip Collins has written books on barometers, their care and repair. And I have found a rather interesting link: Barometers : History, working and styles
I suspect this sort of object may be of more interest in Europe rather than the States, but perhaps I'm wrong. Most on-line references seem to point to the UK. Could be because they are more common there.

John

 

[LloydB]

"And I have found a rather interesting link:
Barometers : History, working and styles"

John

That's a very informative link... Cheers!
Other than its use in pendulums and
fire gilding, I wonder what other uses
there were for Hg, related to horology?

 

[DaveyG]

I have used the Philip Collins book to inform the restoration of several wheel barometers and have found it a very useful reference. There is very sensible advice and guidance in the book about the hazards, working and safe handling practices associated with mercury. The key when undertaking any work with hazardous substances is to be informed and carry out a suitable risk assessment.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

William Farmiloe- for me a name I had not come across, (And of course many others) so I too took a look at Brian Loomes for guidance. In his book, there are two William Farmiloes.
Farmiloe, William, High Street, Stockton-on-Tees (Co Durham) 1827-41.
Farmiloe. William, London, Mar. 1790 Working 45, Great Sutton Street, London 1799-1808. (Has Graham mentioned)

I then took a look at the book by Dennis Moore. British "Clockmakers & Watchmakers Apprentice Records," 1710 to 1810. On finding William Farmiloe, I thought it best to read all those with that name. Must say here I am perplexed.

40/56 Farmiloe Thomas P. app. Peter Grimaldi mas. Watchmaker, Strand, London, Mx. 6th May 1806, 7 years 15/-Tax.

40/79 Farmiloe William, P. app. James Law mas. watchmaker, Great Sutton Street, Clerkenwell, Mx. 19th Jan. 1807 7 years 15/- Tax.

35/217 Farmiloe William mas. James Hayes app. Watch-Finisher, St James, Clerkenwell. Mx. !st Jan 1793, 7 years 10GBP.

38/32 Farmiloe William, mas. Edward Gaudin app. watch-Finisher, Great Sutton Street, St James, Clerkenwell. Mx. 16th Mar. 1795, 7 years 10GBP.

38798 Farmiloe William, mas. James Edwards app. Watch-Finisher, St James, Clerkenwell Mx. 17th June 1800, 4 years 4 Months 22 GBP.

39/28Farmiloe William mas. John Sheppard app. Watch-Finisher, Great Sutton Street, Clerkenwell. Mx. 29th. Sep. 1802 7 years, 21 GBP

It appears William was quite a good watchmaker. (One to look out for).

Allan.

 

[jboger]

Thanks for the info, Allen. I have the watch apart. I find evidence of past work. I wonder if that red cap jewel on the balance cock is original. I expect to see a faceted diamond cap jewel. I have not seen such a red cap jewel on an English watch, at least not this early. It seems Swiss to me. So perhaps a later replacement. On th eother hand, the hole jewel below the cap jewel seems original.

John

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I have three mercury barometers in the house, they really are not a problem.

The Italian names on barometers are because they were Italians who came to the UK. Italy has a long history of glass making and these immigrants were skilled glass workers who made their own tubes. As with watches, many of the English names on barometers were not the makers but the retailers.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

John, I am unsure about these red jewels in early English pocket watches, but I know Peter Litherland used them before 1800. I can only say they are not rubies. When you have time, could you show us a picture of this jewel? Can you see through it?

Allan.

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

So perhaps a later replacement.

If it is, it's most unlikely that it's in an original setting. Diamond endstones were brazed into the steel settings and that method is very secure.

Garnet was a cheaper, softer and hence easier to work alternative to ruby.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Raymond101]

I think you will find that jewel is sapphire .

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

This is well worth reading and could help us all. Open the other threads on the left too.

Pocket Watch Jewel Counts | 21 Jewels, 17 Jewels, 15 Jewels

Serial lookups, info, specs, and value for American antique pocket watches covering manufacturers like Elgin, Illinois, Waltham, and Hamilton

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[gmorse]

Hi Raymond101,

I think you will find that jewel is sapphire

In which case it's still the same material as ruby, aluminium oxide (corundum), just a different colour.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

I am afraid identifying the exact composition of the balance cap jewel is not something that can be done from a photograph - it might even be a non-functional piece of coloured glass - I am not saying it is, but from the photograph it is impossible to tell. All that can be said if it is a mineral, is that it is pink in colour and appears to be translucent.

I am not convinced that this movement is English work, I would like to see more photographs to decide. It may have a continental origin, made in the English style.

William Farmiloe came from Gloucester and once established in Clerkenwell he is described as a watch finisher in the majority of references, with one reference as a watchmaker. I am not certain how significant this is, but if this movement was obtained by Farmiloe, possibly from the continent, and he then performed minimal finishing, adding his signature in the process, I would not be surprised.

I attached a pdf from this site which provides a summary of the research, together with references, of one of his descendants, Andrew Farmiloe. It is dated 2016.

John

 

[jboger]

Well, I'm leaning towards a movement that's Continental in origin. I think the red cap jewel is glass and original. It is dome shaped and smooth. I think the setting is original and had never been blued. If typical English work, I would expect a diamond in a blued setting. I'm not claiming that all English settings were of that sort but certainly the majority, even the vast majority, were. Furthermore, the brass ring for the Bosley regulator seems atypical for an English watch. There are some other things too. I will take some photos a bit later today.

On a different but related note, I have about 5 sedan clock movements. I have had similar thoughts, that some of these are not of English make although place names suggest otherwise. I don't have enough statistics to support this statement, but I've wondered if clocks with balance springs--those used in barometers and sedan clocks--may more often than not have Continental movements in them rather than English. Pure speculation, I know. But the thought has occurred to me. If such is the case--and I'm not saying it is--then the question would be, Why? Since these objects were not as personal as a pocket watch--something carried every day--perhaps the use of a less expensive Continental movement kept costs down

John

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Well, having just read the family report on William Farmiloe. I would like to thank the author Andrew Farmiloe for such wonderful research. Plus a little thank you to John Matthews for letting us see it.

John, your ideas on continental parts are closer than many think. Watch parts in the middle of the eighteenth century were common, and the steel for watch springs for watches came in the main from Sweden. Many of the cocks on English watches were also produced for English watches too. It can all be researched on the forums or in the right books. Has to jewelling in watches, the English kept it secret for years. That's a good story to read up on, it´s all in the Clockmakers Company book.

Allan.

 

[jboger]

Pictures.

Note on the underside of the balance cock a copper plate. New to me. I thought it might be some method of centering the upper pivot above the potence. I have not seen this on any English movement before. The final picture is of the potence. There are two wedges with pivot holes, one for the balance (which you see) and a second for the escape wheel arbor (which you don't see). The escape wheel pinion is cut in the English manner, if I may call it that. That is, no grooves were cut into the arbor when the pinion leaves where made. Or if they were, then they were removed by turning the arbor on a lathe. And the endshake is adjusted with a plug, also something done in the English manner.

Please have a go at it.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

The final picture is of the potence. There are two wedges with pivot holes, one for the balance (which you see) and a second for the escape wheel arbor (which you don't see).

That's the usual layout for a verge potence.

Is that coppery section on the cock just the colour of the brass, (possibly de-zincified by aggressive cleaning), and the section next to it with some sort of coating? There don't appear to be any sign of fixings for a separate piece.

Regards,

Graham

 

[jboger]

Graham:

I took another look at the balance cock. There is no added copper plate. The entire cock seems to be, if brass, then brass with a high percentage of copper--or de-zincked. The cock is tarnished. I believe I could scour the entire cock and give it that coppery appearance. I do not plan to do that.

John

 

[John Matthews]

Graham

Have you seen this type of banking on other verges with this type of cock, i.e. a radial pin in the balance and the banking pins vertically set in the regulator cover plate?

 

[Raymond101]

Graham:

brass, then brass with a high percentage of copper--or de-zincked. The cock is tarnished. I believe I could scour the entire cock and give it that coppery appearance. I do not plan to do that.

John

From the photos the tarnishing marks looks like at some point in its life when the barometric was refilled or some mercury has been spilt . That is the effect. That the Hg it desolves the zinc making brass look more copper.
I would wear cloves when handling that movement. I have a similar movement but not from a barometer. And the brass is more gold brass color and I have never cleaned it . Also 1880 ish from the UK. Mercury turns zinc into an amalgamate which is much harder than the brass . So the metal can crack . Be gentle on those areas. If you have a good microscope check to see if it has micro holes . If cleaning don't use any solvents just mild soapy water . Hg in amalgamate is totally safe .

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

Have you seen this type of banking on other verges with this type of cock, i.e. a radial pin in the balance and the banking pins vertically set in the regulator cover plate?

No, not that I can recall, but it may suggest that the movement was constructed from an assortment of parts at hand. The slide plate doesn't look as though it's gilt, although that could be the result of over-aggressive cleaning or perhaps adverse reaction to mercury. It's also fitted over some of the signature, which could support the 'assortment' theory. However, if it is the mercury, why isn't the rest of the top plate also that colour?

Since fire gilding used a mercury/gold amalgam, the plates will already have been exposed to mercury locally in relatively high concentrations.

Regards,

Graham

 

[jboger]

Now running. This after a complete disassembly that included amongst other things (1) the mainspring removed from the barrel, cleaned and oiled, and (2) the fusee parts separated and cleaned inside and out. Before and after photos. The balance seems a blur in the "after" photo because it is oscillating when I took the photo. The barometer case itself needs some attention, but that's another tale for another day (and not really relevant to this Forum).