inserting t end mainspring by hand

[FredWJensen]

I usually insert new mainsprings by hand. For hole end springs this is very easy, but for t end it is almost impossible. Any suggestions.

 

[Samantha]

I usually insert them by hand also, right out of the ring that they come in. I first make sure the t-end on the new mainspring will fit in the holes in the barrel - usually the "t" is a little larger than the hole. Every now and then I'll have to insert it unwound by hand.
Samantha

 

[FredWJensen]

I have a k and D crank winder, The kind that fits in a vise but I think it is defective. Maybe the arbor spring hooks are too short. Anyway, feel I have better control by hand. except for the t end. I insert the lower end of the t into the barrel and begin winding then find that the lower T has come away from the hole in the barrel.

 

[doug sinclair]

If the "T" end spring is in an insertion ring, the best way (IMHO) is to remove the spring from the ring and select a suitable mainspring wider, wind the spring into it, leaving an inch or so of spring outside the winder. Insert the spring winder with the spring into the barrel, with the barrel sitting on the bench top, and rotate the winder until the "T" lines up with the hole in the barrel. THEN, place the heel of a stout pair of tweezers, on top of the exposed end of the "T", and hold it down firmly, and release the spring into the barrel. I personally do not recommend inserting any spring into any barrel, by hand.

 

[FredWJensen]

i have a k and d crank/vise mounted winder with many barrel sizes that never seemed to work right. The spring was either sliping or during insertion into watch barrel would sometimes shear off the barrel hook? I found inserting by hand a more direct approach.

 

[guychampeau]

i have a set of bergeon mainspring winders...i wind the mainspring and leave the t-end out..place it in the barrel and line it up and pop it in...winding by hand increases the chance of distorting the spring

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I usually insert new mainsprings by hand. For hole end springs this is very easy, but for t end it is almost impossible. Any suggestions.

Fred
While I have several types/brands of winders, I almost always insert main springs by hand. For "T" end springs I insert as follows. The "T" is placed as close to but in front of the barrel hole when I start to insert the spring. If I am careful the "T" ends up about 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn in front of the hole when the spring is fully inserted. I then place the barrel on the bench top while firmly holding it with two fingers. I then take a screw driver and push the "T" backwards toward the hole until it drops in place. The trick is to push the "T" back and not down. If you push down to hard the bottom "T" end will dig into the barrel and stop movement. I have done this for many years without issue other than one "T" end came off as I recall. I suspect it saved me from replacing it latter.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[FredWJensen]

isn't it hard to move the T once the spring is in the barrel? I originally tried to put the T behind the hole then began winging with the hope that it would slide along and drop in the hole. I once tried winding the spring with the hope that the T would traverse the barrel and eventually fall into the hole. But it didn't work.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

isn't it hard to move the T once the spring is in the barrel? I originally tried to put the T behind the hole then began winging with the hope that it would slide along and drop in the hole. I once tried winding the spring with the hope that the T would traverse the barrel and eventually fall into the hole. But it didn't work.

Fred
Of course there is a little resistance when you start pushing, but once it starts moving your almost done. It won`t take you more than a minute or so to try it if its of interest.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[Dr. Jon]

I have a K&D winder. I have cut grooves into it so I can bring the T end into the coil and put it into the barrel. The open barrel has a slot which is long enough to accomodate the T end.

I then can put the T into the hole before I release the spring. I usually takes me a couple of tries.

I also use either finger cots or gloves to avoid fingerprints on the spring and get a good ability to manipulate it into position.

I have not been able to move the spring into position once it is in position.

 

[FredWJensen]

Fred
Of course there is a little resistance when you start pushing, but once it starts moving your almost done. It won`t take you more than a minute or so to try it if its of interest.

Jerry Kieffer

It worked great. Just like you said! I never would have thought that the spring can be moved like that!! You're a genius!!!!

Thanks A Million
-> posts merged by system <-

I have a K&D winder. I have cut grooves into it so I can bring the T end into the coil and put it into the barrel. The open barrel has a slot which is long enough to accomodate the T end.

I then can put the T into the hole before I release the spring. I usually takes me a couple of tries.

I also use either finger cots or gloves to avoid fingerprints on the spring and get a good ability to manipulate it into position.

I have not been able to move the spring into position once it is in position.

`

I will try working with my k and d winder.
I remember that there was not much of a arbor spring hook. Can that be replaced on these?

 

[ben_hutcherson]

Let me just add a big thanks for starting this thread, and for the responses. I have an Elgin that I've been fighting with for a few weeks on and off now with the exact issue that Fred is having.

I'm anxious for a chance to try it again, and hopefully get it to work.

 

[FredWJensen]

monkeying with mainsprings has always been a pain for me.
From the problem mentioned, to getting a new spring to fit properly around the arbor. I probably will get killed for mentioning this but I usually leave the barrel alone on a watch and then see how it works, if it works good and keeps time I do not fool with the barrel assemble at all. I will perhaps add a few drop of clock oil through the holes without removing the cap. I also believe that changing an old mainspring for a new high powered one can cause too much stress on old pinions and gears. So if the watch works good with the existing barrel assemble then I just leave it alone. I also don't think it is a good idea to remove the barrel cap too many times, because it contributes to wear or proper fitting of the cap so that it may never again fit properly.

 

[Dr. Jon]

For a very long time I agreed with Fred. Modern white alloy mainsprings rarely need much attention and I often found that I would have been better off leaving them alone.

I NAWCC school I learned to use finger cots and this makes all the difference in working with mainsprings.

As to the center hook on a K&D, my set has three cranks with different size hooks. The smaller radius is best. My trick is to use a finger (in a cot) or strong tweezer to get the spring started in the arbor and use its tension to hold it while I wind it into the barrel. The smaller hook then allows the spring to release when I back off the crank.

 

[Bill V]

Fred
While I have several types/brands of winders, I almost always insert main springs by hand. For "T" end springs I insert as follows. The "T" is placed as close to but in front of the barrel hole when I start to insert the spring. If I am careful the "T" ends up about 1/4 to 1/3 of a turn in front of the hole when the spring is fully inserted. I then place the barrel on the bench top while firmly holding it with two fingers. I then take a screw driver and push the "T" backwards toward the hole until it drops in place. The trick is to push the "T" back and not down. If you push down to hard the bottom "T" end will dig into the barrel and stop movement. I have done this for many years without issue other than one "T" end came off as I recall. I suspect it saved me from replacing it latter.

Jerry Kieffer

If I read this correctly, you are actually slightly "winding" or tightening the spring by placing it in front of the hole and pushing th "T" backwards ?? I have tried placing the "T" behind the hole and trying to wind it into place, but that never works, and it's impossible to push it forward to the hole. I guess it makes sense that it would move if pushed in the direction that would reduce the diameter of the spring coils. I'll have to try this next time.

Thanks,

Bill

 

[FredWJensen]

I was surprise that I was able to slide the spring as discussed above. If I had trouble sliding it I was going to add more oil to the barrel so the spring would slide more freely but I did not have to do that.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

I was surprise that I was able to slide the spring as discussed above. If I had trouble sliding it I was going to add more oil to the barrel so the spring would slide more freely but I did not have to do that.

Fred
I am happy this procedure worked for you.

Fred & Bill & others
When I started out I found that speculation and assumptions were my worst enemy to accomplishment. I now try all options without hesitation regardless if its rational or not and use what works best.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[doug sinclair]

In another thread, the topic is regarding procedures for tightening a barrel cover so it will stay on. Over decades, if a particular barrel is exposed to having a succession of mainsprings replaced by hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to conclude as to how the lip of a barrel becomes worn to the point the cover won't stay. This is one more reason that using a mainspring winder is best IMHO.

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

In another thread, the topic is regarding procedures for tightening a barrel cover so it will stay on. Over decades, if a particular barrel is exposed to having a succession of mainsprings replaced by hand, it doesn't take too much imagination to conclude as to how the lip of a barrel becomes worn to the point the cover won't stay. This is one more reason that using a mainspring winder is best IMHO.

Doug
I normally also suggest the use of a mainspring winder especially for beginners. However personally, I have installed mainsprings by hand for many years and am very comfortable with it as I am sure some others are also. As such I am well aware of abuse that can take place when installing by hand or also with a mainspring winders. However when normal care and common sense is taken when installing the spring by hand, I do not see how the barrel can be damaged to any greater degree than with a winder.


Jerry Kieffer

 

[doug sinclair]

Every time a mainspring is inserted by into a barrel by hand, the outer coil of the spring makes a circuit, scraping around the lip of the barrel. Over time, with many servicings and/or mainspring replacements, the process of inserting the spring by hand is not likely to do much to help the barrel cover stay tight! In addition, re-inserting a spring by hand after servicing the watch, causes stress to the spring which is outside its normal elastic limits, and there is an increased likelihood of mainspring breakage. And a mainspring that has been inserted by hand usually has a distorted appearance at subsequent removal. Add to that the possible contamination of the spring by all that handling. My purpose in posting this is not to induce you to change the way you do things. Simply to answer the question of the original poster about inserting a "T" end mainspring by hand. Why do it that way when there is a simple, effective way to do it when using a mainspring winder?

 

[Jerry Kieffer]

Every time a mainspring is inserted by into a barrel by hand, the outer coil of the spring makes a circuit, scraping around the lip of the barrel. Over time, with many servicings and/or mainspring replacements, the process of inserting the spring by hand is not likely to do much to help the barrel cover stay tight! In addition, re-inserting a spring by hand after servicing the watch, causes stress to the spring which is outside its normal elastic limits, and there is an increased likelihood of mainspring breakage. And a mainspring that has been inserted by hand usually has a distorted appearance at subsequent removal. Add to that the possible contamination of the spring by all that handling. My purpose in posting this is not to induce you to change the way you do things. Simply to answer the question of the original poster about inserting a "T" end mainspring by hand. Why do it that way when there is a simple, effective way to do it when using a mainspring winder?

Doug
I would have to respectfully disagree. When I personally insert a mainspring by hand the spring does not make contact with the outer lip of the barrel nor is there anymore stress on the spring than if using a spring winder. Maybe even less since the spring is not scraped by the winding container or barrel when being wound. However this would be best shown by demo that is not practical on this board so we will have to agree to disagree on those points.

Personally I have a partictular reason for installing springs by hand even though I would normally suggest a winder in most cases if asked. Because I have done it this way on a regular basis for many years, it is much faster for me personally and it allows for easiy lubrication of the spring.
Most of my customer work involves very old complicated pocket watch restoration.
In some cases the spring barrels are brittle or less robust than they should have been. Over the years I have had a couple of barrels crack when the springs were released from the winding barrels. (Robbins type winder) I have not had this problem with anything made in the last 150 years, but sometimes wonder what effect it has on some of the thin barrels I have seen in some expensive movements. But then again I don`t work on many newer movements. At any rate I should have explained my reasons in earlier posts if for no other reason that to share the experience for consideration when working on very old movements.

Jerry Kieffer

 

[doug sinclair]

I think I said, I was answering a question in my own way. I's not my intention to change any individual's method. Just to give a pointer to someone looking for advice. So, disagree if you wish.

 

[FredWJensen]

A long time ago, when I didn;t know what I was doing and still probably don't: my first experience with inserting a mainspring was a disaster. I had a Seth Thomas sz 18 pocket watch. The old spring was blue and set so I thought. I bought a new white replacement spring. The spring came in its ring. I had read so much about "how bad it was to wind by hand" so I decided to tried to insert the new spring into the barrel in its ring and then push it out of it's ring to get in in the barrel. The Barrel had a crimped barrel; hook. The kind that was made by punching the barrel wall. I put the spring in the barrel gently slid the retaining band away from the spring and the barrel hook was gone, in an instant. I obtained a repacement barrel. At that time I was unable to fabricate a new barrel hook. This time I wound by hand the new spring, first hooking the hole end to the barrel hook. Everything went fine. To this day I am worried about "automatically" inserting mainsprings.
Once I had a spring that was too stiff to insert by hand, I ordered a thinner but longer replacement spring that was easier to wind by hand.
But what do I know?

 

[Tom Huber]

When installing an alloy mainspring, I see no reason to remove the retaining ring and rewind it into the barrel--regardless of whether it is wound by hand or a winder. All alloy mainsprings that I have seen are wrapped in the ring smaller than the barrel. Before installing (if a t-end spring), I ensure that the hooks on the t-end are the right size to fit the barrel hole. I just slip the spring into the barrel and carefully remove the retaining ring.

I have never had a problem.

Tom

 

[Brian C.]

A hundred years ago I was taught to never wind a mainspring in the barrel by hand. I don't know if this rule still applys with the invention of the white alloy springs, but I still never wind them in by hand. I slip the T end springs in the barrel, from the rings, but the hole end ones, I use a winder.

 

[Kevin W.]

Brian if you were taught that a 100 years ago, that makes you really old now.

 

[Brian C.]

I am very old Kevin, 62 to be exact.

 

[Kevin W.]

10 years older than i, Brian, you have many good years ahead.

 

[themp]

Very old thread. Shelter in place project was to get my Uncle's Hampden pocket watch fixed that I had for 40 years. Bought some screwdrivers, tweezers, and movement holder online. It ended up being a broken mainspring with a T end. Found a replacement on Ebay. Getting the spring in by hand was pretty straightforward based on a post above about sliding the T end to the hole. The trick for me was to put the T end closed to the hole and then hand insert 2-3 windings to put some pressure on the T end but not some much that it made it difficult to slide. Once the 2-3 windings were in place, just used a small screwdriver to move the T end to the hole and then after that continue the winding insertion by hand. Quite happy when it starting ticking on the second winding of the stem after getting it all back together. Have worked on many old clocks, but never a pocket watch.

 

[darrahg]

I will never insert a ms from its original retaining ring into a ms barrel as I have found too many springs to be sticky from old grease, even some alloy springs. I always remove the spring, clean it and then apply fresh lubricant before inserting into the barrel.