Ingraham Half Deadbeat Problem

Arthur Cagle

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I'm working on an Ingraham half deadbeat movement from the Treasure banjo clock. I have it running fine (time train only at present) after much fiddling to find the sweet spot of the escapement, UNTIL...the spring expands enough to contact the post designed to force the spring to expand outward rather than interfere with the rest of the movement.

How do I correct this? Ive tried lubricating the post to no avail. Suggestions, please!
 

bruce linde

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so you're saying the spring hits the post and that's enough to stop it? do you think maybe that is causing the plate holding the post to flex?

did you do a full service? including mainspring?

and, as always... photos might help...

more info, pls
 

Uhralt

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so you're saying the spring hits the post and that's enough to stop it? do you think maybe that is causing the plate holding the post to flex?

did you do a full service? including mainspring?

and, as always... photos might help...

more info, pls
Yes, pictures would be helpful. Is it possible that you attached the spring to the wrong post? In some movements this is possible and it happened to me once.

Uhralt
 

R. Croswell

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This movement has four stop posts, two for each train as shown. It is very common to find one or more broken off. They are just punched out of the brass plate metal and are not very strong. This picture shows all in place. On my own Treasure Banjo I had the same problem you describe and found one of the posts broken off. I turned a steel post and drilled a hole next to the broken off one and riveted it in place and no more problem.

RC

stops.jpg
 
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R&A

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I just did I movement with bent out tabs for stops, and one was broke off. Had to make a post and install it to make up for the broken one. The spring would let out and run it's self right into the first wheel and stall out the movement. These post are to guide the spring away from the inside of the movement so they opens outward away from the works.
 

Arthur Cagle

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so you're saying the spring hits the post and that's enough to stop it? do you think maybe that is causing the plate holding the post to flex?

did you do a full service? including mainspring?

and, as always... photos might help...

more info, pls
Bruce, it doesn't appear that the plate is flexing, the only contact is on the post. I did a full service including the mainspring and bushing the escape wheel...it runs like a champ until it contacts the post. For any photos I'd have to disassemble, which would require that I reduce the diameter of the mainspring to clamp, moving the spring away from the post...don't think that would help, would it?
 

Arthur Cagle

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This movement has four stop posts, two for each train as shown. It is very common to find one or more broken off. They are just punched out of the brass plate metal and are not very strong. This picture shows all in place. On my own Treasure Banjo I had the same problem you describe and found one of the posts broken off. I turned a steel post and drilled a hole next to the broken off one and riveted it in place and no more problem.

RC

View attachment 548385
RC, all posts are in place. The only one in contact is the one at the 7:00 position on your pic; the spring is far away from the others.
 

Willie X

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First contact, with a stop tab, shouldn't stop anything right away. Even when the spring touches an arbor or pinion cap it usually doesn't stop imediately. Often these parts are marked where the contact has been going on for a long time.

Is the stoppage after 7 days, or before 7 days?

Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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When you installed the spring were the inner coils at the arbor centered in the diameter of the restrained spring? That could bias the spring to contact the stop tab sooner if the inner coil is pulling the spring off center. But I have to agree with Willie, just contacting the tab should not stop the clock, that's what it is for. On a full wind, how long will it run before stopping?

RC
 

Arthur Cagle

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When you installed the spring were the inner coils at the arbor centered in the diameter of the restrained spring? That could bias the spring to contact the stop tab sooner if the inner coil is pulling the spring off center. But I have to agree with Willie, just contacting the tab should not stop the clock, that's what it is for. On a full wind, how long will it run before stopping?

RC
It stops in about two days on a full wind. This is the second spring, new and lubricated; I replaced the first thinking the problem might be from a weak spring. It wasn't.
 

Willie X

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The spring should be barely starting to uncoil at 2 days, so if it's touching the limiting tab at that point that shouldn't affect the power at all.

I'm thinking you have movement problems that have yet to be resolved.

Could you describe what has been done to the movement so far and also explain the "sweet spot" of the escapement?

If the old spring is in good shape, it may be a good idea to put it back in the game.

Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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I have it running fine (time train only at present) after much fiddling to find the sweet spot of the escapement,.......
These can be fussy, but they are not usually hard to setup. Make sure the escape wheel teeth when released drop onto the dead face of the pallet. You don't need a lot of lock, but the tooth must clearly land on the dead face and not on the line between the dead face and impulse face. If the tooth lands on the line between or on the impulse face it usually won't keep running.

2 days on a full wind suggests other issues than the spring against the stop tab.

RC
 

Uhralt

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It would be good to see pictures of the movement in the 2-day run down state. It's probably a ridiculous thought, but were there 30-hour "Treasure" clocks?
Uhralt
 

shutterbug

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Interesting question, Uhralt. I did a quick google search and found that there is indeed a 30 hour version of this clock. Arthur, is the mainspring about 3/4" wide, or closer to 1/2"?
 

R. Croswell

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Interesting question, Uhralt. I did a quick google search and found that there is indeed a 30 hour version of this clock. Arthur, is the mainspring about 3/4" wide, or closer to 1/2"?
Interesting. Another quick test would be to fully wind the clock after it stops in two days. If it is an 8-day clock it should take approximately two turns of the key to fully wind it. If it is a 30-hour clock it will take many more turns of the key to fully wind after two days.All the ones I've seen have been 8-day. Are the 30 hour ones time & strike or time only?

RC
 

Arthur Cagle

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Interesting question, Uhralt. I did a quick google search and found that there is indeed a 30 hour version of this clock. Arthur, is the mainspring about 3/4" wide, or closer to 1/2"?
3/4", and if it was a 30 hour the spring would have run down, whereas it's actually run down very little. I just let the spring run down freely for a while, and while it was running free it gave a jerk like it would if the spring was sticking to itself (but it's new and just lubed)...I'm waiting now to see it it continues to run; will report the results.
 

Uhralt

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3/4", and if it was a 30 hour the spring would have run down, whereas it's actually run down very little. I just let the spring run down freely for a while, and while it was running free it gave a jerk like it would if the spring was sticking to itself (but it's new and just lubed)...I'm waiting now to see it it continues to run; will report the results.
Before you lubed the new spring, did you remove the protective coating? That may be quite sticky and the cause of your problem.

Uhralt
 

R. Croswell

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Check that the spring isn't hanging on the click rivet or end of the click spring on the back side of the main wheel - keep the spring on the post moved toward the plate. Spring should not snatch, at least not before its almost run down.

RC
 

Willie X

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Some new springs are lacquered and don't slip smoothly like they should. I remove the lacquer with an acetone soak. [You can filter and reuse the acetone for future lacquer stripping] Then, pull the spring out straight and work it over good with fine sandpaper followed by 0000 steel wool. Both used with machine oil. Finish by removing the dirty machine oil with a dry cotton cloth and applying a thin coat of your favorite spring oil or grease.

There shouldn't be much 'bumping' as the springs are wound and unwound. A small amount is normal.

I wasn't kiding about putting the old spring/s back in. You can be reasonably sure that it ran fine with the old springs. New springs ... maybe yes maybe no. Having a new spring break on the first few winds is not that unusual. :)

Willie X
 

bangster

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I always scrub down with steel wool and mineral spirits before lubing. Somebody who knows a lot more than me recommended it, so I always do it. :D
 

shutterbug

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The proof will be in how it runs now. It may have been a sticky spot in the spring, and it may not. let us know.
 

Arthur Cagle

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Sorry for dropping out for a month, but had a family emergency to deal with and just got back to the bench.

Since I had gotten the time train to finally run the full 8 days +, and the clock would stop after running a while with the motion works, I inspected those parts closely. Looked okay, all teeth unworn and straight, everything looked good. Then I re-inspected with my loupe, and lo and behold there was a crack, virtually unseen by the naked eye, between two leaves of the pinion, apparently spreading those two leaves enough to stop the clock. The tolerances must be extremely tight.

I pulled the part from another Ingraham movement that is identical and installed it, and the clock has been running now for three days, longer than it ever did with the motion works installed.The apparent problems with the spring turned out to be a red herring.

I'm going to run the clock for the full eight days before I add the strike train to be sure I've isolated and corrected the problem. Thanks to all for your kind assistance.
 

R. Croswell

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Then I re-inspected with my loupe, and lo and behold there was a crack, virtually unseen by the naked eye, between two leaves of the pinion, apparently spreading those two leaves enough to stop the clock. The tolerances must be extremely tight.
Cracked cannon pinion is very common in Ingraham and Gilbert clocks. Replacement part is best but it can be repaired.

RC
 

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and lo and behold there was a crack, virtually unseen by the naked eye, between two leaves of the pinion, apparently spreading those two leaves enough to stop the clock.
What do you know?!? What are the chances? I just had an exciting experience with an Ingraham movement, and upon inspecting the damage, found the very same thing-- cracks in two pinions. True they might have been there before the exploding spring event. I didn't notice them, but then, I wasn't looking for them. I'm going to replace them.
 
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