Ingraham Half Deadbeat Escapement question

[ahemsley]

I'm working on a 1927 Ingraham gingerbread clock. It was inexpensive, because it didn't run. All is cleaned, strike side is good but it won't run for longer than a minute or so. I've got the timing as regular as I can on a balanced surface and have been examining and straightening the escapement wheel teeth to the best of my ability. I was refreshing my knowledge of damaged tooth techniques and half deadbeat escapements in the great video lessons created by David LaBounty when I suddenly realized that there might be another issue.

I believe the clock to have a half deadbeat escapement; the escapement teeth are raked in the direction of the wheel movement, which I marked onto the photo of the escapement wheel. Next is a photo of the pallet which came in the clock. From what I'm learning, this looks like a recoil escapement. Could this be the problem? I have a "spare parts" alternative (shown in the third photo) of similar thickness although the dimensions are not the same. Would it be better to try to get this one working in the clock?

 

[Dick Feldman]

You may have an escapement problem but you may also have another problem/s.
You did not mention solving any wear in a 105 year old movement.
That escapement, no matter what type, cannot operate without sufficient power.
Escapements are many times blamed for problems as they are the visible factor when the underlying problem is loose pivot holes in the train. Those movements are notorious for brass click springs, loose click pivots, chewed up clicks and ratchet wheels. That can be a danger to you or anyone winding the clock.
My suggestion is to be assured you have sufficient power to the escape system before you try to swap parts or change things and to be assured the click assembly is stable enough to last another 105 years.
You can make matters worse.
Best of luck,
Dick

 

[wow]

Are you sure it is in beat? A video of it running would help.

 

[Dick Feldman]

Are you sure it is in beat? A video of it running would help.

That movement seems to be well beyond beat setting as a cure.
JMHO,
Dick

 

[ahemsley]

Are you sure it is in beat? A video of it running would help.

o

Are you sure it is in beat? A video of it running would help.

Thank you for asking for the video. I was wrong about the direction of the escapement wheel movement, so it must be a recoil, not a half deadbeat. Regardless, you see it peter out. The pallets don't seem like a good fit to the wheel. As for maintenance in this 95 year old clock, there are so many replaced bushings that I don't see signs of wear in the pivot holes, but I don't know how centered the bushings are. I noticed that the bolts were loosened on the top of the movement as I disassembled it, and it seems to get less-than-optimum power if all are fully tightened. I've filed wear from the levers and polished those. Clicks both seem sound, and I cleaned the springs without removing them from the wheels.

 

[Dick Feldman]

If there is a chance the verge that came with the movement is proper, a fairly good explanation of how it should work is in This Old Clock by David S. Goodman. Dr. Goodman also suggests cures for the ills.
That publication is a good reference and can be had through your local library, eBay or Amazon.
It is good for beginners as well as old hands.
You should be able to set the escapement up using your finger to push the escape wheel and maybe attack the power problem later.
As you mentioned, a lot of bushings is not always an indication of health.
Best of luck,
Dick

 

[comet61]

o

Thank you for asking for the video. I was wrong about the direction of the escapement wheel movement, so it must be a recoil, not a half deadbeat. Regardless, you see it peter out. The pallets don't seem like a good fit to the wheel. As for maintenance in this 95 year old clock, there are so many replaced bushings that I don't see signs of wear in the pivot holes, but I don't know how centered the bushings are. I noticed that the bolts were loosened on the top of the movement as I disassembled it, and it seems to get less-than-optimum power if all are fully tightened. I've filed wear from the levers and polished those. Clicks both seem sound, and I cleaned the springs without removing them from the wheels.

Curious.....you say it gets less power when the plates are tightened. I wonder if "new" bushings are not flush on the inside of the plates causing insufficient end play. Perhaps you have one of more arbor shoulders riding hard on the plates; this will act like a brake. This will definitly slow the time train down. Have you tightened all the plate nuts with verge installed and checked the end play of all the pivots? Even one pivot/arbor can slow a clock down considerably if it is too tight with no play. As said by the previous poster....you need to make sure all available energy is being transferred from the main wheel to the escapement before dealing with the escapement and pallets. One way to find out is to loosen the top nuts and let the time train run free with verge removed ( I use my finger on the 3rd or 4th wheel to control speed and to stop it). While running, press down on the areas of where the nuts go and see if the time train stops or slows down. I run into this problem quite a bit.

 

[wow]

Your video shows that it is slightly out of beat as mounted. Also, I see some teeth in the escape wheel that need slight straightening. Another thing I noticed was a punched bushing. Dick mentioned power loss in the train. He is probably right because of the way the train stops. Your movement needs a complete disassembly and bushings where needed. Also, examination of every pivot, wheel, and pinion. Every pivot should be polished. It’s not terrible, but just worn enough to need a refurbishing. You may get it going “as-is” but it won’t last long.

 

[ahemsley]

Curious.....you say it gets less power when the plates are tightened. I wonder if "new" bushings are not flush on the inside of the plates causing insufficient end play. Perhaps you have one of more arbor shoulders riding hard on the plates; this will act like a brake. This will definitly slow the time train down. Have you tightened all the plate nuts with verge installed and checked the end play of all the pivots? Even one pivot/arbor can slow a clock down considerably if it is too tight with no play. As said by the previous poster....you need to make sure all available energy is being transferred from the main wheel to the escapement before dealing with the escapement and pallets. One way to find out is to loosen the top nuts and let the time train run free with verge removed ( I use my finger on the 3rd or 4th wheel to control speed and to stop it). While running, press down on the areas of where the nuts go and see if the time train stops or slows down. I run into this problem quite a bit.

Thank you, I noticed that the bushing to the right of the escapement wheel seemed to be pushed out of the plate, and was concerned it was off-center and might come loose with more cleaning, but I'll go back and check both plates for the issue you mention. I'm not experienced enough to know if I could ream out the questionable bushings and put in second generation replacements. I suspect the holes made by reaming would become too large. I'll check the time train for areas of power loss too.

 

[ahemsley]

Your video shows that it is slightly out of beat as mounted. Also, I see some teeth in the escape wheel that need slight straightening. Another thing I noticed was a punched bushing. Dick mentioned power loss in the train. He is probably right because of the way the train stops. Your movement needs a complete disassembly and bushings where needed. Also, examination of every pivot, wheel, and pinion. Every pivot should be polished. It’s not terrible, but just worn enough to need a refurbishing. You may get it going “as-is” but it won’t last long.

Thank you, I have polished all pivots and just posted my concern about putting 2nd generation bushings in the place of those in the clock. I can check the OD of those bushings I possess to see whether I have any with the correct ID and an OD larger than the bushings currently in the clock. Am I correct in thinking the tolerances won't allow me to put the same sized bushing into the clock a second time? Some of the lantern pinions look very worn as well, replacing the wires in those would be a "first" for me, so I have been trying to see whether other options are sufficient to get the movement going.

 

[R. Croswell]

You have the perfect storm - a badly worn old clock that someone has already messed with. If the openings of the bushings on the inside of the plates have not been chamfered, they should be (in addition to being flush as already mentioned), That could be why tightening the bolts reduces power. If the lantern pinions are really bad, you can't avoid that problem simply because you don't yet know how to fix them. Can we see pictures of these? They may or may not be the problem. Actually, there probably is no "the problem" rather the cumulative effect of several problems.

RC

 

[ahemsley]

You have the perfect storm - a badly worn old clock that someone has already messed with. If the openings of the bushings on the inside of the plates have not been chamfered, they should be (in addition to being flush as already mentioned), That could be why tightening the bolts reduces power. If the lantern pinions are really bad, you can't avoid that problem simply because you don't yet know how to fix them. Can we see pictures of these? They may or may not be the problem. Actually, there probably is no "the problem" rather the cumulative effect of several problems.

RC

Thanks to you and comet61. Here are many more photos of multiple problems! The bushings are not all flush on the inside of the plate, specially the escapement wheel bushing on the dial side of the movement. I've attached photos of both plate inside bushing appearances. Also, there is most definitely a power loss, at the interface between wheel and pinion indicated by the stick pointer. I could see the escapement wheel and one adjacent to it spinning freely as I let some power out of the spring, but saw and felt resistance (and heard slight jamming sounds) at that intersection. It stops and there is still mainspring power available. The teeth on this wheel looked burred at disassembly, and I tried to smooth them as you can see, but may not have done an effective job. Now that I'm looking at all of this more closely, I see wear and burrs on the great wheel too. Lantern pinions on three of the wheels are also shown. I appreciate input that helps me sharpen my powers of observation, and it looks like I have many more possible improvements to make before worrying about the escape wheel.

 

[R. Croswell]

You definitely have a power hang up problem. You can locate this problem better with the main spring let down and restrained. Wind the spring just a few clicks until there is just enough power for the wheels to turn. When the wheels stop, mark each wheel where it stops. Nudge it forward and let it run again until the wheels stop again. The wheel that stops in the same place is where that problem is.

Now take a look at this, Lantern Pinion Depthing (awci.com) If a bushing is not located properly, the teeth on the wheel be jamming the pinion. In some bad cases, the tips of the teeth may actually be striking the arbor (shaft) in the center of the lantern pinion, or the trundles (wires, pins) may be bottoming in the gullet between the gear teeth. Even when if the wheel and pinion do not jam, a misaligned wheel and pinion will increase friction and reduce available running power.

The lantern pinions in your photos have wear but I have seen much worse run. The worst case with these Ingram movements is when some of the trundles rotate freely and some do not. The ones that do not will have wear in just one place while the ones that do rotate will have wear all the way around. OK to rotate, OK not to rotate so long as everyone in the same lantern does the same thing.

Don't worry about the worn teeth on the main wheel for now. Once you have the skills, you can flip the wheel and use the unworn side of the teeth. One thing you do need to look for is if the 2nd wheel pivot hole has been bushed the pinion may now be closer to that main wheel. That can force the trundles of the lantern pinion into the crotch or pocket at the bottom of the curve worn into the main wheel teeth causing binding.

That escape wheel teeth look rather blunt on the tips. That can happen if someone either tries to file or lathe-turn the wheel to make all the teeth the same length. That probably is not causing it to not run but may affect how well it runs.

Finally, as pivots wear, the part next to the arbor doesn't wear and the part extending through the bushing does not wear. Your pivots may not have parallel sides. When a bushing is fitted, it may fit OK in the worn portion, but as the arbor moved back and forth between each plate, the unworn area may be too tight. The standard test is, with all power let down and the movement flat on its back, use a probe to raise each wheel up to the plate above and let it drop. Look for two things: 1) there must be some end play or end shake as we call it, 2) it drops freely from its own weight. Turn the movement face down and repeat the process looking for the same two things.

Assemble the movement using just two gears. Make sure they have the correct depth and spin freely. Do again with the next pair and so on.

Finally, make sure none of the pivots are bent. If a pivot is just a little bent, and the bushing is just a little crooked, there can be one spot during the rotation where the pivot will bind in the bushing even though the pivot may appear to properly fit the bushing before assembly.

RC

 

[ahemsley]

You definitely have a power hang up problem. You can locate this problem better with the main spring let down and restrained. Wind the spring just a few clicks until there is just enough power for the wheels to turn. When the wheels stop, mark each wheel where it stops. Nudge it forward and let it run again until the wheels stop again. The wheel that stops in the same place is where that problem is.

Now take a look at this, Lantern Pinion Depthing (awci.com) If a bushing is not located properly, the teeth on the wheel be jamming the pinion. In some bad cases, the tips of the teeth may actually be striking the arbor (shaft) in the center of the lantern pinion, or the trundles (wires, pins) may be bottoming in the gullet between the gear teeth. Even when if the wheel and pinion do not jam, a misaligned wheel and pinion will increase friction and reduce available running power.

The lantern pinions in your photos have wear but I have seen much worse run. The worst case with these Ingram movements is when some of the trundles rotate freely and some do not. The ones that do not will have wear in just one place while the ones that do rotate will have wear all the way around. OK to rotate, OK not to rotate so long as everyone in the same lantern does the same thing.

Don't worry about the worn teeth on the main wheel for now. Once you have the skills, you can flip the wheel and use the unworn side of the teeth. One thing you do need to look for is if the 2nd wheel pivot hole has been bushed the pinion may now be closer to that main wheel. That can force the trundles of the lantern pinion into the crotch or pocket at the bottom of the curve worn into the main wheel teeth causing binding.

That escape wheel teeth look rather blunt on the tips. That can happen if someone either tries to file or lathe-turn the wheel to make all the teeth the same length. That probably is not causing it to not run but may affect how well it runs.

Finally, as pivots wear, the part next to the arbor doesn't wear and the part extending through the bushing does not wear. Your pivots may not have parallel sides. When a bushing is fitted, it may fit OK in the worn portion, but as the arbor moved back and forth between each plate, the unworn area may be too tight. The standard test is, with all power let down and the movement flat on its back, use a probe to raise each wheel up to the plate above and let it drop. Look for two things: 1) there must be some end play or end shake as we call it, 2) it drops freely from its own weight. Turn the movement face down and repeat the process looking for the same two things.

Assemble the movement using just two gears. Make sure they have the correct depth and spin freely. Do again with the next pair and so on.

Finally, make sure none of the pivots are bent. If a pivot is just a little bent, and the bushing is just a little crooked, there can be one spot during the rotation where the pivot will bind in the bushing even though the pivot may appear to properly fit the bushing before assembly.

RC

Thank you so much. This will be invaluable moving forward with many movements. I have been doing a bit of troubleshooting along some of these lines and found at least one development. I smoothed the existing bushings flush with the insides of the plates and did further work on some of the burrs on the great wheel and second wheel. Then I decided to add one wheel at a time to the train and test movement and hang-up. With a C clamp on the mainspring so I would not create a dangerous situation, I wound the spring a little while restraining the wheels, then let that power out to the wheels. Second wheel moved freely on great wheel, third wheel addition was also fine. When I added the fourth wheel, there was no movement. I noticed then that the pinions of this wheel sat rather too snugly in the bushing, no play or wiggle at all. The bushing OD also looked smaller than the 3.5mm I would have expected (from Bergeon bushings at least), so I didn't know what was going on there.

I decided I would remove the bushing and put in one with a 1.5mm ID/3.5mm OD, since the pivot was 1.3mm (.051" measured with a micrometer). As I started to remove the small bushing, it fell out. I continued to ream, and when my hole was almost 2.47mm, I could not finish the ream because the remnant of another bushing, put in even before the small one, started to spin! That's where I am now, apprehensive that all the spinning is causing a hole > 3.47mm to be generated, into which I won't be able to place my intended bushing, which I see now will be 3rd generation. I know there are undesirable ways to push the brass back towards the hole, but I don't know if I have the tools to try that.

 

[ahemsley]

1pm: Thank you so much. This will be invaluable moving forward with many movements. I have been doing a bit of troubleshooting along some of these lines and found at least one development. I smoothed the existing bushings flush with the insides of the plates and did further work on some of the burrs on the great wheel and second wheel. Then I decided to add one wheel at a time to the train and test movement and hang-up. With a C clamp on the mainspring so I would not create a dangerous situation, I wound the spring a little while restraining the wheels, then let that power out to the wheels. Second wheel moved freely on great wheel, third wheel addition was also fine. When I added the fourth wheel, there was no movement. I noticed then that the pinions of this wheel sat rather too snugly in the bushing, no play or wiggle at all. The bushing OD also looked smaller than the 3.5mm I would have expected (from Bergeon bushings at least), so I didn't know what was going on there.

I decided I would remove the bushing and put in one with a 1.5mm ID/3.5mm OD, since the pivot was 1.3mm (.051" measured with a micrometer). As I started to remove the small bushing, it fell out. I continued to ream, and when my hole was almost 2.47mm, I could not finish the ream because the remnant of another bushing, put in even before the small one, started to spin! That's where I am now, apprehensive that all the spinning is causing a hole > 3.47mm to be generated, into which I won't be able to place my intended bushing, which I see now will be 3rd generation. I know there are undesirable ways to push the brass back towards the hole, but I don't know if I have the tools to try that.

2:43pm: With encouragement, advice and the Good Lord, all things may be possible. I got the 1st gen bushing ring out of the plate, and the 3rd gen new one is hammered in and flush with the inside of the plate now. Here's a short vid of the train in movement now. I wound the spring and tested for movement three times, and the motion never stopped wheels at the same point, just when most power was expended, I think. Photo of new bushing which now allows more movement of the 4th wheel. I'm going to take a break and then put the verge, pendulum and center arbor back on the clock to see what's next.

Mr. Croswell, you're the best!

 

[Willie X]

What are you referring to when you use the word "gen"? Willie X

 

[comet61]

What are you referring to when you use the word "gen"? Willie X

("gen": 1st Generation)I believe he is referring to factory bushings when manufactured.....I think.

 

[R. Croswell]

2:43pm: With encouragement, advice and the Good Lord, all things may be possible. I got the 1st gen bushing ring out of the plate, and the 3rd gen new one is hammered in and flush with the inside of the plate now. Here's a short vid of the train in movement now. I wound the spring and tested for movement three times, and the motion never stopped wheels at the same point, just when most power was expended, I think. Photo of new bushing which now allows more movement of the 4th wheel. I'm going to take a break and then put the verge, pendulum and center arbor back on the clock to see what's next.

Mr. Croswell, you're the best!

View attachment 741145

That's a big improvement. Another test you can try now that you have the time train parts in place is this. With the spring restrained and completely let down (you can jiggle the main wheel back and forth and there is zero driving power), use your winding key and start winding the spring counting the number of clicks before the wheels start to move on their own. That will give a pretty good picture of how much friction there is in the train. About 2 to 4 clicks should start things turning is all is well. If it takes much more than that you still have some problems. That main spring needs to come out and be cleaned and gone over with some 0000 steel wool and oiled with some heavy oil or mainspring oil.

I'm afraid that I'm a long way from the best, but once in a while I get lucky.

RC

 

[ahemsley]

What are you referring to when you use the word "gen"? Willie X

Yes, I used gen to refer to the succession of bushings I observed to have been placed in the same position in the brass plate, so my 3rd gen was the third one to go in.

 

[ahemsley]

That's a big improvement. Another test you can try now that you have the time train parts in place is this. With the spring restrained and completely let down (you can jiggle the main wheel back and forth and there is zero driving power), use your winding key and start winding the spring counting the number of clicks before the wheels start to move on their own. That will give a pretty good picture of how much friction there is in the train. About 2 to 4 clicks should start things turning is all is well. If it takes much more than that you still have some problems. That main spring needs to come out and be cleaned and gone over with some 0000 steel wool and oiled with some heavy oil or mainspring oil.

I'm afraid that I'm a long way from the best, but once in a while I get lucky.

RC

I'll try that today, thank you. I got ahead of myself yesterday and put the motion works into the clock along with the time train, and lost power to the escapement wheel again quite rapidly. The cannon pinion seems to be cracked. I saw the line of the crack when disassembling, but hoped it wasn't critical, maybe a flaw from manufacture. But there seems to be a grating noise/feel near it where the interaction with the second wheel occurs. I'll be checking the spare parts collection again. Sort of like the New Haven Gem slipping clutch problem you guys helped me with one clock back, but no washer issue this time?

Forgot to say that I cleaned the mainspring with WD40 on a Scotch Brite pad, wiped the WD40 off and got last traces with Mineral Spirits, cleaned that off and greased with Moebius 8030 grease. I used a pipe cleaner for the center of the spring - didn't actually take it off the pin because I've had difficulty getting mainsprings back onto pins in the past.

 

[wow]

That crack is critical. It must be fixed. You can buy some of these which may need to be modified to fit yours. There are several threads on this message board dealing with that repair. Your minute hand is probably slipping on the arbor due to the crack.

 

[ahemsley]

That crack is critical. It must be fixed. You can buy some of these which may need to be modified to fit yours. There are several threads on this message board dealing with that repair. Your minute hand is probably slipping on the arbor due to the crack.

View attachment 741230

Here is what I found in my 1928 Ingraham mantel clock spare movement, alongside the damaged part. 1927 Gingerbread (damaged pinion) is below the spare one in the photo. Measured specs:

1927 cut pinion diameter: 0.378", 1928 pivot diameter: 0.364" (Could the crack be making the difference?)
1927 pivot diameter: 0.088", 1928 pivot diameter: 0.087"
"Leaves" on cut pinion 1927: 12, 1928: 12
"Leaves?" that interconnect with 2nd wheel, 1927: 26, 1928:26

So, the length of the center arbor seems like the biggest difference. All of the other distances between pinions and strike release pins seem the same. If I purchased the pinion as new, I would have to remove the old one and hammer on the new, so perhaps I can use the one off the 1928 arbor? Or is cutting the 1928 arbor down a better option? I don't have lathe skills yet, but I have invested in one and could practice on spare parts.

 

[R. Croswell]

I'll try that today, thank you. I got ahead of myself yesterday and put the motion works into the clock along with the time train, and lost power to the escapement wheel again quite rapidly. The cannon pinion seems to be cracked. I saw the line of the crack when disassembling, but hoped it wasn't critical, maybe a flaw from manufacture. But there seems to be a grating noise/feel near it where the interaction with the second wheel occurs. I'll be checking the spare parts collection again. Sort of like the New Haven Gem slipping clutch problem you guys helped me with one clock back, but no washer issue this time?

Forgot to say that I cleaned the mainspring with WD40 on a Scotch Brite pad, wiped the WD40 off and got last traces with Mineral Spirits, cleaned that off and greased with Moebius 8030 grease. I used a pipe cleaner for the center of the spring - didn't actually take it off the pin because I've had difficulty getting mainsprings back onto pins in the past.

View attachment 741216

Very common problem with Ingraham and Gilbert clocks. I'm afraid that you will have to locate a donor movement or repair the one you have. Unfortunately, the replacement Gilbert pinions have 12 teeth and the Ingraham pinions have 10 teeth. You must have a pinion with the same number of teeth or the hour hand won't keep up with the minute hand.

RC

 

[R. Croswell]

Here is what I found in my 1928 Ingraham mantel clock spare movement, alongside the damaged part. 1927 Gingerbread (damaged pinion) is below the spare one in the photo. Measured specs:

1927 cut pinion diameter: 0.378", 1928 pivot diameter: 0.364" (Could the crack be making the difference?)
1927 pivot diameter: 0.088", 1928 pivot diameter: 0.087"
"Leaves" on cut pinion 1927: 12, 1928: 12
"Leaves?" that interconnect with 2nd wheel, 1927: 26, 1928:26

So, the length of the center arbor seems like the biggest difference. All of the other distances between pinions and strike release pins seem the same. If I purchased the pinion as new, I would have to remove the old one and hammer on the new, so perhaps I can use the one off the 1928 arbor? Or is cutting the 1928 arbor down a better option? I don't have lathe skills yet, but I have invested in one and could practice on spare parts.

View attachment 741233

Ingraham used several variations of this center piece. If the pinion on your spar part has the same number of teeth as the cracked on, you should be able to use it to replace the cracked one. I believe you would need to carefully remove all the other pressed on parts on the back end and press the pinion off in that direction. (You can check by measuring the diameter of the front and pack part of the shaft.) If the front part is larger, then the pinion cannot come off in that direction). This is not the easiest repair to make.

RC

 

[Dick Feldman]

In your journey with this movement, do not forget to address the clicks/return springs.
Note this:https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/why-re...s-that-are-still-working.193090/#post-1583720
D

 

[ahemsley]

In your journey with this movement, do not forget to address the clicks/return springs.
Note this:https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/why-re...s-that-are-still-working.193090/#post-1583720
D

Between your comments and those of RC, I suspect that this clock might have parts from other models all over it! Here's a photo of one of its mainsprings. Click spring wires are not the style I saw in your link. both sides seem to be sturdy steel types.

 

[ahemsley]

Ingraham used several variations of this center piece. If the pinion on your spar part has the same number of teeth as the cracked on, you should be able to use it to replace the cracked one. I believe you would need to carefully remove all the other pressed on parts on the back end and press the pinion off in that direction. (You can check by measuring the diameter of the front and pack part of the shaft.) If the front part is larger, then the pinion cannot come off in that direction). This is not the easiest repair to make.

RC

Front and back of the shaft both measure .172". I have the spare mantel clock arbor in the movement right now so I could only measure the front end, .1715". Will the slight difference present additional problems, or could that just be dirt variations? Is the difficulty with alignment of the new part against the little spring, or ensuring a good fit to the shaft? Or both?

The video shows some improved power gain using the spare part, but there's still trouble when I put the verge on.

 

[shutterbug]

Your pinion can be repaired. Use search for techniques.

 

[R. Croswell]

Between your comments and those of RC, I suspect that this clock might have parts from other models all over it! Here's a photo of one of its mainsprings. Click spring wires are not the style I saw in your link. both sides seem to be sturdy steel types.

View attachment 741253

That is one of several types of click springs that Ingraham used. These are less likely to brake but more likely to come loose. The advantage of having the click spring wire attached to the click is that there is nothing on the inside of the main wheel for the spring to snag on.

RC

 

[ahemsley]

Ingraham used several variations of this center piece. If the pinion on your spar part has the same number of teeth as the cracked on, you should be able to use it to replace the cracked one. I believe you would need to carefully remove all the other pressed on parts on the back end and press the pinion off in that direction. (You can check by measuring the diameter of the front and pack part of the shaft.) If the front part is larger, then the pinion cannot come off in that direction). This is not the easiest repair to make.

RC

Since I'm such a newbie, I intend to find someone knowledgeable to perform this repair. If I mess it up, I can learn no more from the clock, and won't have a Gingerbread to add to my collection. I located a clockmaker in Trappe MD, hopefully he'll be willing to undertake this repair... Meanwhile "The groans of the people " will likely continue as I tackle a bargain basement 1925 Seth Thomas Cymbal#5 sitting in the basement. First ever chime/strike attempt for me!

 

[Willie X]

If you send it out, the repairer will need to have the assembled plates, or at least the exact distance between the plates at the point where the hand shaft lives, often 1.375".

The repaired assembly, including the hour pipe/gear, has to be about 10 to 15 thou shorter than the space between the plates.

Note, make sure the repairer does this job on a regular basis, otherwise keep looking for a repairer ...

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

Since I'm such a newbie, I intend to find someone knowledgeable to perform this repair. If I mess it up, I can learn no more from the clock, and won't have a Gingerbread to add to my collection. I located a clockmaker in Trappe MD, hopefully he'll be willing to undertake this repair... Meanwhile "The groans of the people " will likely continue as I tackle a bargain basement 1925 Seth Thomas Cymbal#5 sitting in the basement. First ever chime/strike attempt for me!

The "good" pinion may be able to be transferred to the part that has the cracked pinion, but no one can guarantee that the now good one won't crack during the process. There are several controversial methods to "fix" these cracked pinions, boring and bushing the pinion is a time-consuming process.

There are several things to consider in this case. You are working on a movement that has obviously been messed with and probably has other problems beside this cracked cannon pinion, including a somewhat messed up escape wheel and some questionable bushing work. Used Ingraham movements frequently come up on eBay for less than what it may cost to repair this broken pinion, and you may find a movement in better condition than the one you have now, and you would acquire a bunch of spare parts in the process.

The main things to look for are length of the center shaft, spacing between center and the winders, number of teeth on the escape wheel, and if your movement is stamped with a number relating to pendulum length, something like 7 1/2 etc. If you only want a replacement part, the length is all that matters. Most Ingraham center shaft assemblies are interchangeable even if they are not exactly the same design.

Meanwhile "The groans of the people " will likely continue as I tackle a bargain basement 1925 Seth Thomas Cymbal#5 sitting in the basement. First ever chime/strike attempt for me!

Yes, I'm groaning for you. I would recommend that you do a few more time & strike clocks and acquire the experience and tools needed for proper repairs before messing with chime clocks, that one will keep until you are prepared, but if your basement is damp, consider finding a better place to store it.


RC

 

[R. Croswell]

This one has been repaired using a donor pinion from another part that could not be used because the shaft was too long. It was a bugger to get the replacement part off, but in the process, I think I discovered why so many Ingraham cannon pinions crack. I do not believe it has anything to do with the quality of the brass, but how the pinion is secured. Look at the pictures below, the pinion is not just pressed onto a slightly oversized smooth shaft. The shat is also heavily knurled. The knurling has cut deep lines in the pinion causing potential starting points for cracks to form. I reduced the knurling slightly and lightly smoothed the ID of the replacement pinion. It was still a pretty tight fit but it didn't crack. Hopefully it will last another 100 years, but I don't like heavy knurling like that to hold a pinion with such a thin cross section.

RC

 

[ahemsley]

This one has been repaired using a donor pinion from another part that could not be used because the shaft was too long. It was a bugger to get the replacement part off, but in the process, I think I discovered why so many Ingraham cannon pinions crack. I do not believe it has anything to do with the quality of the brass, but how the pinion is secured. Look at the pictures below, the pinion is not just pressed onto a slightly oversized smooth shaft. The shat is also heavily knurled. The knurling has cut deep lines in the pinion causing potential starting points for cracks to form. I reduced the knurling slightly and lightly smoothed the ID of the replacement pinion. It was still a pretty tight fit but it didn't crack. Hopefully it will last another 100 years, but I don't like heavy knurling like that to hold a pinion with such a thin cross section.

RC

View attachment 743225 View attachment 743226 View attachment 743227

The repaired pinion is in the clock now, and it has been running for three days. While waiting for the repaired part to come back (thank you RC), I was able to recondition a 1914 Ingraham T/S alarm clock that had the same movement. All the advice on wheel testing sequentially made the 1914 reassembly much faster, and they're both running and back on the shelf to be enjoyed. RC, you are definitely right about the design weakness in these Ingraham movements. The 1914 alarm clock also has a cracked cannon pinion but runs OK for now. I've scavenged a replacement one from yet another junk movement, and may venture to try the pinion swap myself next time. Thanks everyone for all the assistance.