Ingraham Count Wheel Doesn't Always Turn

Organist

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Hi,

Got a nice little kitchen clock here. It wouldn't do a thing. I think someone sprayed it with WD 40 or something. It was all sticky and gunky. I disassembled the movement and cleaned. I noticed that one of the mainsprings was 1/3 the length it should have been, so I replaced with a new one. The spring wires on the levers were missing, so I replaces those as well. I reassembled and it runs fine on the time side. The strike side is a different matter. The count wheel only sporadically turns. This seems to be because it does not always mesh with the pins. The wheel doesn't seem to be bent, and there's no play in the pivot hole on whichever wheel it connects to on an Ingraham (3rd, I think). I suppose the pins or the teeth could be worn? Time Savers has count wheels, but the teeth on those are straight whereas the teeth on the Ingraham count wheel are somewhat angled. Any ideas? Thanks, Mike
 

THTanner

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post some good close up photos of the strike side and especially the count wheel and we can give better suggestions. It is possible that a previous repair mislocated a bushing or two and you need to replace some to get the depthing correct
 

Willie X

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Feb 9, 2008
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It's common for one (or more) of the thinner long teeth on the count wheel to be bent. The pin that turns the wheel could also be bent inward or badly worn.
This pin should always advance the count wheel at every turn.

Also check the friction clip that holds the countwheel on its hub. If the wheel is loose on its hub, this can cause eratic operation. Willie X
 

R&A

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The count wheel maybe bent ??
 

R. Croswell

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....... The count wheel only sporadically turns. This seems to be because it does not always mesh with the pins. The wheel doesn't seem to be bent, and there's no play in the pivot hole on whichever wheel it connects to ........
There should be two pins (gathering pallets) that turn the count wheel is steps. The count wheel teeth are rather "saw tooth" shaped. Make sure that you have the count wheel installed right side up - a very common mistake. As the count wheel turns the hour count should increase. If the gathering pins are not bent and the retaining clip isn't loose, and count wheel is on correctly and not bent, I would suspect that the pivot and/or pivot hole at the lantern pinion that holds the gathering pins is excessively worn or perhaps someone before you installed a bushing at that location and did not get it centered properly. You can only evaluate wear at that point if the spring is completely let down or the movement is apart.

Some pictures could help and it would be especially useful to see a video of the count wheel's eratic behavior.

RC
 

shutterbug

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Yes, pics. I'm curious about this:
Time Savers has count wheels, but the teeth on those are straight whereas the teeth on the Ingraham count wheel are somewhat angled.
That could be the issue.
 

Organist

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Here's a pic of the movement. Sorry I'm unable to post the video.

Thanks,
Mike

IMG-0226.JPG
 

roughbarked

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Dec 2, 2016
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Hi,

Got a nice little kitchen clock here. It wouldn't do a thing. I think someone sprayed it with WD 40 or something. It was all sticky and gunky. I disassembled the movement and cleaned. I noticed that one of the mainsprings was 1/3 the length it should have been, so I replaced with a new one. The spring wires on the levers were missing, so I replaces those as well. I reassembled and it runs fine on the time side. The strike side is a different matter. The count wheel only sporadically turns. This seems to be because it does not always mesh with the pins. The wheel doesn't seem to be bent, and there's no play in the pivot hole on whichever wheel it connects to on an Ingraham (3rd, I think). I suppose the pins or the teeth could be worn? Time Savers has count wheels, but the teeth on those are straight whereas the teeth on the Ingraham count wheel are somewhat angled. Any ideas? Thanks, Mike
There should be a friction slip type tension on the count wheel. Maybe the tension on this spring is not correct. This could pehaps cause problems when the wheel is turning?
 

shutterbug

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Try this link
I think you're missing a spacer under the wheel. It's not even close to the driving pins ;)
I don't see one in the usual suppliers, so you'll likely have to make one. It should be thick enough that the retainer just fits over it.
Retainer
 
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Organist

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You mean the spacer that goes between the wheel and the plate?
 

THTanner

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A bit hard to see in the photo, but I would check the condition and location of the bushing circled in red, and perhaps relocate it just a bit to the left??

CountWheel.JPG
 

Organist

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Uh.. It's there, and the retainer too, if we're thinking the same thing. In fact, I have another Ingraham that looks the same and works just fine. However, I'm missing something or else this one would would work too. Thanks!
 

roughbarked

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Uh.. It's there, and the retainer too, if we're thinking the same thing. In fact, I have another Ingraham that looks the same and works just fine. However, I'm missing something or else this one would would work too. Thanks!
I can see it is there. It should create a certain tension but still alow the wheel to slip when the pin moves the countwheel. If all is not correct, sometimes the pin may not push the wheel aong the correct distance on each turn of the pin.
 

shutterbug

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The driving pins are definitely missing the wheel teeth, and can't be made longer because of the plate. So, you need to find a way to move the count wheel toward the drive pins. Examine both of your movements to see what differences there are in that area. It could be that the count wheel has been replaced, and the original one was not flat. You might be able to alter yours with the proper tools.
 

Organist

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Well, I think I have it figured out. I disassembled the movement and the count wheel is a bit looser than it should be, also the wheel that drives the count wheel DOES need a bushing. When it was all together, it hardly moved, but when I put it in the movement with the count wheel, it has room to pull away enough to get away from the count wheel. Also, the count wheel itself appears to be slightly bent. I guess I should have looked more carefully at things before I hit the panic button, but then, this is how you learn things.
 
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shutterbug

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Yep. We've all been there :D
 

Organist

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I think I finally got it taken care of. I put a different count wheel on from an identical movement. That seems to have taken care of it. Now I have another problem. After getting it together, I couldn't get my clamp off because when I turned it it stated slipping. I'm getting tired of this. I have another project I want to start. :-(
 

Organist

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Oh, sorry. The mainspring clamp.
 

THTanner

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Oh, sorry. The mainspring clamp.
I find it is best to put the clamp or wire restraint on with the main spring no more than 1/2 wound if possible. Sometimes you have to go a bit more to get it to fit in there. That way when it comes time to take if off you can wind the spring the rest of the way and the clamp is plenty loose to work without any issues.
 

shutterbug

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It probably slipped off the arbor. Sometimes you can slip a screwdriver into the inside loop to hold the spring against the arbor while you turn the key. After you get it started, just wind it tight and that will secure the inner loop so it won't come off again.
 

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