INGRAHAM CLOCK MOVEMENT -where to start?

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by John P, Sep 15, 2016.

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  1. John P

    John P Registered User
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    #1 John P, Sep 15, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2016
    I'm going to repair this but how do I get all the solder off. It appears someone
    got a bit clever with a soldering iron.
    It was actually struggling to run, much like a wounded animal.



    P9070100.jpg P9070101.jpg

    P9070099.jpg

    don't know how the pictures below got there and couldn't figure how to delete them.
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Wow, that's nasty! You'll need a solder wick and some heat, probably a lot of elbow grease too. Then several new bushings. I hope that was an amateur's first attempt at a repair, and not from a clock shop!
     
  3. Rob P.

    Rob P. Registered User

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    Disassemble and then use a torch to heat the solder. You can wipe the soler off with a damp cloth or paper towel while it's still molten.

    You'll need to sand off the silver residue and repolish the plates. You'll have to sand and repolish the plates anyway after the filing debauchery.

    Most of the run problem is probably because it's beyond dirty. Beyond filthy even, but those repair bushings aren't helping any either.

    Get it apart, get rid of the hacks and get it clean. From there; rebush the holes, polish the pivots and reassemble. It'll probably run perfectly afterward.
     
  4. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Like Rob says but I would use a dry rag. Wet will tend to cool the molten solder, but keep the rag out of the fire and make sure it is not smoldering before leaving it. Compressed air is another option but beware of flying molten solder. That escape wheel looks a little messed up as well.

    RC
     
  5. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, those teeth need to be pulled straight again :)
     
  6. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    or, see if you can find another one on ebay and use your time on more reasonable repairs and fixes
     
  7. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I have taken to using a 'scraper to remove the last remains of the solder. A small scraper can be easily made from an old broken steel knife blade. It has to be shaped to a shallow arc and ground flat. That is instead of a steep angle to a sharp edge it has two parrallel sides, a very short face with two sharp right angle edges. The solder will scrap away easily because its so soft. A scraper is used to do minute shaving operations on wood and metal. Many light strokes are used and it will sometimes send up tiny curls like a plain or lathe.
    Willie X
     
  8. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    I'd recommend a pencil torch, and a "solder sucker" described in THIS post.
     
  9. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Heating up from underneath and a blast of compressed air did the trick.
    I found many more issues once the movement was apart. Man what a botched
    job.

    P9150127.jpg P9150124.jpg P9150123.jpg P9140121.jpg
    P9140111.jpg P9140120.jpg
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    In deed a rather sloppy previous repair, but like as has been expressed here so many times, it kept the clock going and out of the trash. Nothing you can't clean up and make right. I think the biggest challenge will be getting the teeth of the escape wheel properly shaped and evenly spaced. Please let us see it when everything is finished.


    RC
     
  11. Douglas Ballard

    Douglas Ballard Registered User

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    You are indeed brave and fearless to take this repair on! :coolsign: You will have gained a lot of valuable experience after this job is done!
     
  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Just a hint on that first pic: You can just turn the trundles over and re-use them. Saves cutting new ones, and I wouldn't consider it a bodge. :)
     
  13. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Perhaps, but it looks like there's some rust pitting on the unworn surfaces. Not much trouble to cut new pins with a Dremel cutoff wheel. I think I'd take the time to just replace them. With that much wear the OP might take a close look the teeth on the mating wheel. The wear is probably due, or partly due to the cobble craft bushings not maintaining the proper depth of engagement.

    RC
     
  14. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    if we took everything i've learned in my first two years of clock addiction as clock school and called the class 'clocks 101', this one would be one heck of a final exam! :cool:

    keep us posted.
     
  15. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Here is a repair on the timeside main wheel. A ring has been riveted on to repair a missing tooth. . The ring itself and the original wheel is in terrible condition. The time it took to do this.........apparently he had lots of it and little to no parts.

    I have another greatwheel but the arbor is longer and I have not yet had to press these apart. It don't look like and easy do. That is my only option though so I'm going to have a go at it. Any tips?

    P9150130.jpg



    The plates needed only3 bushings so far. T4F and EW. Still fitting up though. Strike side looks good.
     
  16. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    You sure have a movement that's had a hard life. I've never seen an entire wheel sistered up like that although it is not uncommon to see a section of a wheel, usually soldered on, to bridge a missing tooth. Ingraham main wheels usually do take a beating. I would at least give this guy a B+ for effort on this one. It probably ran OK and I would not be surprised if it would still run with a little cleaning up. It is if nothing else a part of this clock's life story. So that's option one.

    So I assume you are committing to a more conventional repair - replacing the wheel with a new or good used one. You didn't say whether you have a lathe or not which will determine how you move forward. This is a fairly common repair and not really difficult. If you have a lathe this will be much easier. Keep in mind that you will need to put it all back together again so you can't damage any of the parts in the process. At least you get to practice once because you will need to disassemble the donor part first to remove the wheel, then do the same for this one. This Ingraham part is a bit different from most. Notice that there is a black, slightly cupped, spring washer that holds the ratchet wheel against the main gear. The part of the arbor that passes through that spring washer is staked or expanded to compress the spring washer and hold it in place. Your task is to remove that spring washer. The usual procedure would be to put the arbor in a lathe and take a light cut to remove the staked or expanded area of the arbor just enough to allow the spring to be separated but leaving enough material so you can re-stake it when you put it back together. Once the spring washer is removed you can remove the ratchet wheel. There will be a steel pin through the arbor that fits a slot in the ratchet wheel. These can shear off so inspect carefully and if the pin is damaged this is a good time to replace that as well. The main wheel will then lift off.

    Check the click and click rivet for wear and looseness. While the wheel is separated is an ideal time to repair this if needed. Would also be a good idea to replace the brass click spring with a spring steel one.

    Reassemble all the parts in the same order. Hold the spring washer down and use a staking punch to expand the hub evenly in several places to secure everything together. Be careful - if you stake it too tight you won't be able to wind the clock. It should be staked tight enough to hold the cupped spring and provide enough tension so the main wheel can turn in relation to the ratchet with just a little resistance.

    No lathe? Well this would be an ideal time to order one! Otherwise you will need to carefully file the staked hub to release the cupped spring. Try not to file the spring but you will need to get right down to it. Don't expect it to just fall off because the arbor hub is expanded inside the hole in the spring. You will still need to wiggle the main wheel to help the spring cup slip off.

    I believe this is the correct procedure for this model.

    (I thing this one would be the test for repair 201)

    RC
     
  17. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    It's cases like this that give solder a bad name. :p
     
  18. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I do have lathes, 3 , in fact. I can cut the stake down until the cupped washer is loose but
    there wont be much left to stake the replacement wheel back on.
    I'll have a go at it in the morning and post the results
     
  19. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    That's right, you only get one chance. Doesn't usually take much and there is usually enough metal to stake it. "Plan B" would involve machining a tight fitting collar to retain the spring. I have one that was actually made that way.

    RC
     
  20. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I have removed and replace the main wheel. It went well and so now I have to straighten up the escape wheel.
    It is the last mountain to climb before assembly.
    Shown in picture is my EW repair tool. I built this tool mainly for open escapement wheels.
    They are small in diameter and every tooth must be correct or the clock will run in and out of beat.
    After some time, the EW is ready and fitting a verge which did not come with the movement is next.
    I have had some issues with doing this job, mainly frustration and failure. However difficult it seems to me, it may be easy for others and I am working with it now.
    The last picture shows what I have to start with. I'm not sure it is correct for entrance and exit. Any tips on this job would greatly be appreciated.

    P9170137.jpg
    P9170133.jpg
    P9180138.jpg
    P9180143.jpg
     
  21. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I'm afraid you will have issues with that escape wheel as it is. Looks like you have one of the Ingraham half-deadbeat escapements. The teeth not only need to be evenly spaced they need to slant forward in the direction of rotation. The tip of the tooth (not the side of the tooth) needs to contact the dead face on the verge. Each end of the verge (each pallet) has a dead face where the tooth lands, and an impulse face (across the tip of the verge) that transfers power. The angle the tip of the tooth makes with these faces is important.

    One of the attached pictures shows a similar (unrestored) Ingraham movement - yes, it's a little messed up to but you should get the general idea. The other picture is a blowup of you picture showing the problem because the teeth on your escape wheel just stick more or less straight out when they should slant.

    Go to this site http://www.abouttime-clockmaking.com/downloads.shtml and click on the picture of the half-deadbeat escapement to see a great animation of how the slanted teeth interact with the faces of the verge.

    RC
     

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  22. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Good eye RC, that's a mock up in the picture there, trying things to figure out the set up. I'm entertaining thoughts of ordering a EW and verge set. Original wheel is 40-7 and is rough, not happy with the way its going. Too much meat missing.
    thanks for the info.

    john
     
  23. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Good luck finding a new drop-in replacement. Most of the escape wheels for sale are for recoil escapements. You need a deadbeat style escape wheel and half-deadbeat verge (like you have). The dead beat escape wheels typically do not have a lot of meat but rather have long slender teeth. Unless you break a tooth the wheel you have may still be salvageable. It won't work the way it is so you have nothing to loose by trying. Good possibility someone here may have a wheel like that.

    RC
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    You could also look at threads here that contain how to's on escape wheel repair. Pulling EW teeth "straight" is an acquired skill that we all need.
     
  25. John P

    John P Registered User
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    The EW turned out better than expected and on went the build. I found and corrected another famous Ingraham problem.
    P9190155.jpg

    finally got it together and worked out the verge problem.

    P9180154.jpg

    And it is running just fine, not finished but running and striking.

    P9190157.jpg P9190158.jpg

    This old kitchen clock has been quit a challenge and if I had to charge a customer for this it would be HIGH $$
    I have enjoyed every minute.
    Thanks so much for those who have followed the adventure and chimed in with much needed help.

    John P
     
  26. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I wish you all could hear it, such a happy dance.
     
  27. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    John, I applaud your steadfast resurrection work on a clock movement that many people would have tossed. As you complete your repairs and fine tune the movement I believe you will need to address the escapement. As mentioned in earlier postings, Ingraham movements often have half deadbeat escapements. My 8 day Ingraham movements that are dated post 1900 have half deadbeat escapements. I have one thirty hour Ingraham that is pre 1900 with a recoil escapement.

    There is something wrong with your setup. The strip pallet verge appears to be designed as half deadbeat. The escape wheel teeth are pointing the wrong direction for that verge, assuming that the rotation of the escape wheel is clockwise.

    So you may correctly say "it runs!". I'm not surprised. One of my clocks had the same setup as yours. It had been set up that way probably 40 years ago by a well meaning repairman (who was used to working on recoil escapements probably). It had ran that way, although it was not a good "time keeper". So I reversed the escape wheel and adjusted the pallets using the methods explained in Steven Conover's book.

    If indeed your Ingraham movement was built with a recoil setup, then the verge needs to changed. If it was originally setup as half deadbeat the escape wheel needs reversing. One or the other.


    Typical half deatbeat escape wheel and strip pallet (that's a piece of paper stuck behind the wheel in an attempt to improve the clarity):
     

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  28. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Infamous Ingraham Problem indeed! Gilbert clocks seem to have the reputation for busted cannon pinions but I've repaired/replaced more Ingraham cannon pinions than any other. One question I have for everyone, why do these things so often (but not always) split a tooth in half like this? Looks like the weak point would be between the teeth :?|

    Glad to hear that the old Ingraham lives on and is doing well.

    RC
     
  29. Hudson

    Hudson Registered User
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    View attachment 316876
    Yes, they also split between the teeth. Here is another Ingraham that I came across:
     

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  30. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I believe Hudson is correct. I was assuming that you had a half-deadbeat escapement based on the verge shape and that the escape wheel had just been molested. If this is an older kitchen clock it may be like mine shown below. The escape wheel looks like yours and this movement is a recoil escapement. The original photo only shows part of the verge but enough is there to indicate that it was a recoil verge. Sorry about the fuzzy pictures of the restored movement with a recoil verge. If this is like your movement, it should have a recoil pallet strip. As was pointed out, these may run with the wrong verge but probably won't really run right. It should be an easy task to swap the verge.

    RC
     

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  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think the issue with the pinion splitting is making the hole a tad too small, and then forcing it onto the arbor. When I have to replace Gilbert pinions, I almost always have to enlarge the hole a little so the new one doesn't break while trying to force it onto the arbor. They were stretched at the factory like that, and time will eventually cause that stress to be released.
     
  32. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Here is what I have running now. The teeth appear to face backward as the wheel moves clockwise. There is no recoil that I can see.

    So are you saying I need a different verge? Perhaps like the 2 I have pictured? P9200161.jpg P9200163.jpg
     
  33. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Yes, that would seem to be the case. I suggest you might want to do a little research on recoil escapements and how to set one up correctly. Steven Conover's book, Clock Repair Basics has a decent simple to understand explanation of recoil and half-deadbeat escapements plus a lot of other good basic clock repair information http://www.clockmakersnewsletter.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html Book 3 Escapements is also a good reference. If you want to get into the details of the geometry and theory of this and other types of escapements then Practical Clock Escapements by Laurie Penman is a very comprehensive work on this topic (should be available on Amazon and Timesavers etc. ) Recoil escapements are generally rather forgiving, and as you have seen, in a typical over-powered American kitchen clock will often run even when the geometry isn't exactly correct but it will run better, sound better, and be more likely to keep good time when everything is as it should be. The spacing between the pallets is critical and the escape wheel teeth need to contact the pallet faces at the correct angle. The picture you show is typical but the exact shape of each end of the pallet strip will depend on the number of teeth spanned, the diameter of the escape wheel etc. The teeth should contact the entrance and exit pallet faces at the same angle and you want the entrance and exit drops to be the same. It is amazing how such a simple device can be so devilish at times to get right. Almost every adjustment will affect in some way every other. For example, changing the opening between the pallets will affect the drop from one pallet more than the other and will also affect the angle the tooth makes to the pallet surface. Changing the number of teeth spanned likewise will require corresponding changes in the shape of the verge (true for recoil and half-deadbeat escapements). Take time and get it right, don't just try to make it keep running.

    RC
     
  34. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I have re worked the verge as recommended and the movement is running quite well. Beat sounds better and a nice healthy swing of the pendulum.

    Thanks again
    John

    P9210164.jpg
     
  35. shutterbug

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    That might work, but the entry pallet needs to be a tighter curve. Both pallets should point toward the inner rim (back side of the teeth rim).
     
  36. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I got a dozen new verges but the all point the wrong way. This one is not worth working with.
    I'll get a few ordered that I can work with and get that corrected.
    Got a few cuckoo clocks in so i'll have to put this one up for a while.
     
  37. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #37 R. Croswell, Sep 22, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    You are on the right track but not quite there yet. If you look carefully at that entrance pallet and the escape wheel tooth and think about what's supposed to happen I think you can see the problem. The escape wheel tooth must "push the verge out of its way" in order to get past. In so doing it transfers its energy to the verge, to the crutch, to the pendulum. As shown, the flat side of that tooth lands almost flat against the pallet face. The pallet will stop it ok but the tooth has very little "leverage" to move the pallet or transfer power - it's simply going to stop and rest there until the pendulum swings back and releases it. It you close up the curve on that entrance pallet as Shutterbug suggested then the escape wheel tooth will contact the pallet and an angle and will have the ability to push it "out of the way" and drive the pendulum. While these recoil escapements are forgiving, and with enough applied power may actually run, I believe your current setup is providing most of the power at the exit pallet.

    If you move the crutch very slowly until an escape wheel tooth is just released, at the moment of contact of a tooth landing on the entrance pallet should form an angle that's the same as a tooth landing on the exit pallet. As a general guideline (as mentioned) when an extension of the pallets point to the rim of the escape wheel you should be "in the ball park", but its the actual angle that's important.

    Your current setup appears to span 7 teeth. Your original photo showed a verge spanning 8 teeth. There is no absolute rule, but a span of 25% of the teeth is "in the ball park". A movement with a 40 tooth escape wheel would likely span about 9 teeth. Again, I suggest you review some of the literature regarding the design and operation of recoil escapements for more detail. For now, I'll just say that spanning fewer teeth generally results is a wider pendulum swing and spanning more teeth results is less pendulum swing but also less power demand. A smaller pendulum swing will have less circular error and, all else being equal, may be a more accurate time keeper. Conversely, a clock with a small pendulum swing becomes more sensitive to being perfectly "in beat" and less tolerant of unleveled surfaces. Look to the published literature for a more technical explanation; the point here is that for this movement to run as intended the verge should span the correct number of teeth. Without and original verge to go by, the 25% rule should be OK. It may run with 7, or even 10, or 11 but I would think that 9 would be closer to original. The verge you show has the saddle unusually close to the exit pallet which could be a problem as well. I believe if you setup a verge that is a little wider left of the saddle you should be able to span one or two more teeth and also have a more typical saddle position closer to the center of the verge.

    So often one is tempted to conclude that a clock is fixed if it just runs when it often has the potential to run even better. Your almost there, take it all the way across the finish line.

    RC
     

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