Ingraham Cannon Pinion

MuseChaser

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I've had an Ingraham T/S that has been driving me nuts, and I finally figured out the problem. I had done a full cleaning/servicing on this movement a few weeks ago, it ran great on the test stand for a day or two, so I put it back in the case and everything was fine for a week or two. The minute hand ( the kind with the rectangular cutout which fits over a protrusion on the center arbor, then held in place by a hand nut) fit loosely enough so that it had about four minutes of "play" to it, which drove me nuts, so I started tightened down the hand nut enough to hold it in place to indicate the correct time when striking. Then... the clock kept stopping, sometimes after a day, sometimes after only a few minutes. By now, you've all figured it out, but it it took me a while....

Ingraham Center.jpg

After pulling the movement and playing with it on the test stand this afternoon, I discovered that it ran fine without the hands on it. Hmmmm.... didn't see or feel any binding in the motion works... hmmmm.... cannon pinion wasn't too tight...hmmm... maybe the hour hand is gripping too tightly and pinching the cannon pinion? Nope... runs fine with just the hour hand on it. Hmmm.. OK, let's try just the minute hand. Put it on loosely, set the time... ran fine! Sooo.. snugged it down, and the clock stopped. Eureka! The minute hand is too tight against the cannon pinion.. not enough extension past the pinion.

What would the "proper" cure be? I could disassemble the movement and file a bit off the end of the cannon pinion but before doing so I thought I'd consult with you all first. What about cupping the minute hand where it mounts so it bows away from the arbor? Somehow closing the rectangular hole so it has less play and doesn't require the hand nut to be tight at all? What's the best way to proceed?

Thanks!
 

bikerclockguy

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Do you get the same results with the minute hand turned over? In other words, if the side of the hand facing outward when it’s snugged down was “heads”, do you get the same results with “tails” up?
 

wow

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Muse, the minute hand is binding on the hour hand tube I think. You can remove the hour tube and file off just enough of the end of it that it doesn’t touch the minute hand but you have to disassemble. I suspect that something else is wrong, though, because “how did it get that way?” We need photos of the hand shaft installed.
 

Willie X

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Have you checked for a cracked motion works pinion. This defect will essentially pull the handshaft into the clock about 1)16". Willie X
 
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MuseChaser

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Thanks, Will, Willie, and BG. Good thoughts re/"what caused it?"..gotta figure that out. Looks like one more tear down is in order. Will report back.
 

shutterbug

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I have run into a problem like that only once, and in that case I did have to shorten the cannon. But as the others have cautioned, leave that as the last possibility. Check everything else first. Also look UNDER the cannon for something that might be causing it to not sit down far enough. Check the minute wheel too.
 

R. Croswell

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I would bet that Willie is correct. Cracked cannon pinions are common on Ingraham and Gilbert clocks. See picture - when the pinion (gear) cracks the tension spring behind it forces the pinion ahead which in turn forces the hour pipe ahead causing the problem you are experiencing.

RC

CANNON-PINION.jpg
 

MuseChaser

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Ugggh. I sure hope you're not correct, RC, but you usually are. I've got about four hours of brutal lawn mowing to look forward to today, but I'll try and get this torn down tonight to get a look at it. If that's what it is, it's out of my current ability zone. Time to expand, I guess. Just read a few threads about cannon pinion repair. Solder, pin, replace, oh my.... one particularly contentious thread wasn't much fun to read, despite it containing a lot of good info. Why do folks have to get so defensive and pi$$y?

Once I get a closer look and post some pics, I hope you won't mind a few more pointed questions on how to proceed if necessary. Thank you, RC, SB, Willie, and Will, once again.
 

R. Croswell

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Ugggh. I sure hope you're not correct, RC, but you usually are. I've got about four hours of brutal lawn mowing to look forward to today, but I'll try and get this torn down tonight to get a look at it. If that's what it is, it's out of my current ability zone. Time to expand, I guess. Just read a few threads about cannon pinion repair. Solder, pin, replace, oh my.... one particularly contentious thread wasn't much fun to read, despite it containing a lot of good info. Why do folks have to get so defensive and pi$$y?

Once I get a closer look and post some pics, I hope you won't mind a few more pointed questions on how to proceed if necessary. Thank you, RC, SB, Willie, and Will, once again.
The best repair for a broken cannon pinion is a cannon pinion that is not broken from another donor movement. There are three criteria that any good cannon pinion repair must meet:

1. The crack must be closed to restore the original spacing between the pinion teeth.
2. The repaired pinion must be replaced on the shaft at the original position to compress the slip clutch spring.
3. The repaired pinion must be secure on the shaft so it can't slip away from the spring or rotate.

There have been several way reported here that proport to have successfully accomplished this task. I don't intend to get into a pi$$ing match over which way is good, better, or best, or likely to fail. The main load on the pinion is the pressure of the slip clutch tension spring. Some motion works are sloppy enough that exact tooth spacing isn't too critical but others are easily stopped by a cracked pinion.

A clock with a broken cannon pinion ain't no good like it is, so go ahead and move out of your comfort zone. You can't make it any worse and Ingraham donor movements are pretty common.

RC
 

MuseChaser

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ROFL... You guys are the best! Just got done mowing what I'm going to mow today, and pulled the center arbor. Man, I hate it when you are right... sigh....

IngCanCrack.jpg

OK... as promised/threatened.... here come the questions. First, the "parts list" so I can communicate despite my lack of horological vocabulary... corrections ALWAYS appreciated and welcomed.

Center Arbor Parts.jpg

A - pinion gear. Cracked. Bad gear, no cookie.
B - Gear driven by 2T - "minute wheel?" Slips on arbor, moves via friction applied by spring.
Not shown by arrows, between B and C - steel washer, attached to B, loose on shaft and movable with B.
C - Slip Clutch Tension Spring
D - Steel washer, loose on shaft and movable
E - Brass collar, fixed in position.
F - Small brass arm, fixed in position, part of the reverse hand mechanism.
G- Pin on steel collar, swivels loosely around arbor.
H - Brass collar, fixed in position.

I'd like to try and repair this assembly rather than replace it, just so I can keep learning. As RC said, not much to lose here, so I might as well take the opportunity.

1. If I compress the spring and push back the pinion gear and minute wheel, I can see a line on the arbor. Is that actually a very, very slight shoulder, and that's what's supposed to restrain the pinion gear from moving past it?

2. In order to repair the pinion gear, I'm assuming it must be removed. How? Are the brass collars, E and H above, and the small brass arm, F, all staked into place? Do they all need to come off and, if so, best way to do so? Will the be deformed in the process, making them not fit snugly enough upon refitting and reassembly? Obviously, I haven't done any real "staking" work... just removed and replaced a gathering pallet or two.

3. Compared to the 400-day clocks I cut my teeth on, there seems to be an inordinate, unnecessary amount of tension applied by the spring for the slip clutch. Why are they so strong? Some of my clocks are so difficult to turn the hands to set the time that I worry about bending the hands... I always turn them near the center and not by the tip. Seems like a lighter spring would still do the job and prevent issues like this cracked pinion.

4. Soldering the pinion - on hand, I have thin gauge rosin core solder for fine electronic work (which I'm sure is useless here), acid core solder for plumbing work, paste flux, regular plumbing propane torch, and small micro butane torch. Also have a small anvil and hammer for pounding solder very thin. Will any of that suffice to get the job done? If not... what do I need?

5. The pinion gear, right now, does not rotate on the arbor (a good thing, I gather), but it DOES slide on the arbor when I press on the cannon. Based on RC's most recent post, I gather that the pinion gear should not move on the arbor at all, neither rotationally nor along the arbor. I don't understand how it slides up and down the arbor now, but does not rotate... is it keyed on the arbor somehow?

I could probably get the clock running by filing 1/16" off the tip of the cannon or somehow soldering the pinion gear to the arbor so that it remains in its original, pre-crack position... but I'm trying my best to steer clear of the HOS. I throw myself upon the mercy of the court.
 

R. Croswell

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I would not file anything, you want the parts to be the size they already are. Yes, you should remove the damaged cannon pinion - it should come off the front end of the shaft. The larger gear will come off to, From there what you do depends on the repair method plan to use. With the two gears and tension spring removed you will need to drive the collar that holds the tension spring toward the back of the shaft perhaps 1/8". Do not mess with the turnback stuff on the back end of the shaft. Assuming that you do not have a lathe, use a round file to slightly open the hole in the cracked pinion so it is a slip fit onto the arbor. Usually the crack will close on its own once you press the pinion off of the shaft. If you use the solder method, first brighten the steel shaft where the gear will go. Put the tension spring and both gears on the shaft at the original position and solder the cracked pinion in place (careful not to solder the larger gear).
Clean thoroughly to remove all traces of solder flux. Then press the tension spring collar back to apply pressure to the tension spring.

I would use acid flux like comes with Tix solder but I would NOT use Tix. 95/5 plumber's solder would probably be my choice if you can find it. Low temperature silver solder should also do. 60/40 solid solder perhaps OK. Do NOT use flux core radio solder, the flux is no good on steel. Likewise most of the paste flux for copper pipes is not the best for steel. Make sure you get the steel shaft and the pinion both up to solder flow temperature. Say a prayer and you are done.

Just for the record, I do have a lathe and I would bore out the pinion and solder in a brass bushing that was a press fit back on the shaft, but I have seen solder repairs of this part work. Personally I would not rely on Loctite to hold a cracked pinion.

RC
 

Willie X

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I use about the same method as RC, but I file away most of the upset metal on the shaft, then pass your thinnest jewelers saw through the crack in the gear. This is all prep for the solder job.

Now, wrap the gear with 2 turns of iron tie wire; it's important that it's IRON tie wire and twist it tight, tight enough to close the crack.

Finally, place the gear on the shaft. Hopefully, it will be tight enough to require some force but not so tight to open the crack, adjust the fit as necessary. This tension will allow you to put the hour pipe back on and precisely locate the gear for a 10 thou end shake.

Remove the shaft from the movement, take off the hour pipe, check to make sure all the parts are oriented correctly and solder away.

Soldering tips: look up 'jewelers method of soldering'. It takes only a tiny piece of solder, about the size of a small rice grain.
Put the chip of solder at the junction of the fluxed crack and shaft. There should be some flux on the solder chip too. Apply a small brushy flame from below and opposite the chip of solder, concentrating the heat on the shaft, not the gear. The flame should never stop moving. When all is well the solder will flow in a second or less. Back off and let it completely cool.

If you don't have years of soldering experience, I would take it to someone who does.

Willie X
 

MuseChaser

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Much appreciated, RC and Willie. To Willie.. I have decades of in-depth soldering experience, but it's ALL been point-to-point or PC-board electronics based with very fine-point soldering irons. Absolutely NO structural experience, but I need to start somewhere in my quest to get "years of soldering experience." Might as well start here, eh? Will definitely read every "jeweler's method" hit on every search engine I can find.

If I understand you both correctly, the goal is NOT necessarily to repair the pinion gear itself, by soldering the crack shut prior to placing it back on the arbor, but rather to close that gap as much as possible and soldering the gear onto the arbor in the correct spot... without soldering the other parts that DO need to remain movable. Is that correct?

Also.. I've further disassembled the ... ummm.. assembly... per your suggestions, and discovered an extra washer embedded in there. Is that typical? This picture shows everything in order of assembly, exploded... IngExplode.jpg

You can see a steel washer to the far right still on the arbor next to the brass collar. There was an additional steel washer stacked upon it, then the spring, then everything else right to left in the pic. Is that standard?
 

Willie X

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The spring should have a flat steel washer on both ends. Not exactly sure about the extra one. Just make sure you can adjust the tension by moving the press fit brass collar (E) . Willie X
 
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shutterbug

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I usually bush them too. Enlarge the hole enough to accept the bushing without it holding the crack open, then solder it in place. It's a very strong repair. You'll also need to open the ID of the bushing enough to get a good friction fit on the arbor. You don't need a huge amount of friction - just enough to hold it in place.
 

R. Croswell

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If I understand you both correctly, the goal is NOT necessarily to repair the pinion gear itself, by soldering the crack shut prior to placing it back on the arbor, but rather to close that gap as much as possible and soldering the gear onto the arbor in the correct spot... without soldering the other parts that DO need to remain movable. Is that correct?
Pretty much yes. You cannot solder the crack together with enough strength to hold when the gear is pressed back on the shaft. The idea is to relieve the stress on the crack by slightly enlarging the hole to allow the crack to close. Once the gear is soldered to the shaft (or to an inserted bushing) it will be stable and the tooth spacing will be correct.

If you are experienced soldering circuit boards and electrical connections the same basics apply - clean the parts, apply flux, bring both parts to soldering temperature, flow solder into the joint, don't over heat. The steel shaft has the greater mass and will heat more slowly so do as Willie described and focus the flame mostly on the shaft. The key here is to back off the tension spring collar so the gear will not be under pressure until the solder cools. That's not a problem if you bush the broken gear and press it on. I've never tried to hand-bush a cracked cannon pinion but with care I suppose it could be done, but if you get it off center or crooked it will be a problem. Another reason to get a small lathe.

RC
 
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MuseChaser

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Thanks again..very much. Now that you all have cleared all this up for me, I know how to proceed. I'll let you know how it goes.

And...I'm increasingly seeing the longterm value in a lathe. I guess that time is coming.
 

Willie X

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Most Bernz-0-Matics will only go down to a soft 3/4" to 1" flame. That's just what you want. Not a bad Idea to tightly roll up a length of #220 sandpaper to clean up and score the inside of the little gear.

The prep might take you 30 minutes.
The actual heating part, maybe 20 seconds.

Lots of fine points here, Willie X
 
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MuseChaser

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I hope you guys don't get tired of being thanked... thank you, WIllie.

Haven't got all the prep done yet, but getting close. I moved the adjustment brass collar back to relieve the pressure on the spring and create a bit of space... that went well. I don't have any staking plates, so i drilled some appropriate sized holes in white oak scraps and that worked well.

Willie mentioned using a Benzmatic set real low. ...

TorchesSolder.jpg

This is what I have on hand, and I was planning on using the small butane torch on the left; I thought the smaller pinpoint flame would be easier to control, and maybe heat things up faster and more localized. Would a small flame on the Benzo be better?

The two solders you see are both lead-free. One is labeled 95 tin/5 antimony. The other is labeled "Silver Bearing Solder," but does not show the ratio and I can't find anything specific about its makeup online, other than a melting point of 430F. Which would be better to use? Also, the flux I have is zinc chloride-based. I've got to go run some errands... if there's a locally obtainable flux that would be better, I can pick some up, or will this work? I also have some "Tip Tinner" on hand... Tip Tinner ... that I bought a while ago for electronic work. I don't use it much... I found I have better luck just keeping the tip clean with frequent brushes on a damp sponge or brass scrubbie, and retinning before shutting down. The Tip Tinner is pure tin in ammonium phosphate substrate. Would that be of any use?

As far soldering procedure....

SolderPoA.jpg

There's still not a lot of space between the pinion gear and the minute gear. If I suspend the assembly from the minute gear, vertically as above, with a bit of flux applied to the area on the arbor where the pinion gear contacts it, would proceeding as labeled in the pic above be the correct way to go about this, with the aim of only soldering what should be soldered?
 

Willie X

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That coil spring complicates things a bit as it takes up more room. Most have a finger washer that takes up only about 1/8". I have a photo here somewhere. Your set-up should be fine but it's upside down from mine and you may be able to get a little more space by tying the loose stuff up tightly toward the top.

A pin point concentrated flame is not good. Look up "silversmithing" on YouTube.

Two photos of, soldered and ready to solder. You only need one small bit of solder. Non lead solders don't flow very well IMOE but it's easy enough to see how they work on a scrap brass to steel joint.

Keep the heat away from that spring.
Willie X

20171130_112544.jpg 20171130_111516.jpg
 
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MuseChaser

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GREAT pics, Willie... extremely helpful. Man, am I glad I heeded your advice to practice on some scrap pieces, too. There's some serious technique to getting this right.. took me four tries, but it finally started to make sense. Here's my first success... an old previously removed Rathbun brass bushing soldered onto the end of a 5/16" steel rod. I did watch a couple videos first, but the technique that they showed of applying flux first, then burning it off, letting it cool a bit, then placing solder and reheating didn't work for me at all. What finally worked was making sure I had a good flush fit, coating both contact surfaces with flux, assembling, placing a small leaf of solder (also coated with flux) on top of the joint, then heating evenly and slowly from the steel side. When it finally flowed where I wanted it to, it was a beautiful thing. Very strong, too. A couple more practice runs, then I'll do the real thing maybe tomorrow.

I TRULY appreciate the help and guidance.
45b3caae-c938-4e0d-b5a5-dec337c3e0aa.jpg 94055c78-6267-4200-b235-b1b7c3a85714.jpg
 
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shutterbug

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Note in Willie's pic how he puts a small piece of solder on the part rather than trying to feed it from the spool. That prevents over soldering and is a good technique to learn. You can flatten a piece if it wants to roll off. That also frees your other hand for other things.
 
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MuseChaser

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Note in Willie's pic how he puts a small piece of solder on the part rather than trying to feed it from the spool. That prevents over soldering and is a good technique to learn. You can flatten a piece if it wants to roll off. That also frees your other hand for other things.
I had definitely noted that... it's exactly what I did. I think my first difficulties were caused by improper use of flux, poor fit, and/or uneven heating.
 

Willie X

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It's best to apply the liguid flux after assembly, just before soldering.

No one would ever cook the flux, let it cool and then solder. It just doesn't work that way.

Looks like you're 'on it'.

Willie X
 

MuseChaser

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It's best to apply the liguid flux after assembly, just before soldering.

No one would ever cook the flux, let it cool and then solder. It just doesn't work that way....
Yeah,I kind of discovered that. This is one of the silversmithing videos I watched that showed doing it that way. Apples and oranges, I guess....


 

Willie X

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I steered you to 'silvetsmithing' in reference to the flame shape and their use of the flame to control the soldering. I should have splained it better.

They usually use a big 'reducing' flame (usually an oxy/propane rig) and flow temps around 1250°, completely different flux, etc. Yeah, that's a totally different ball game. But, it is a really good study on how to work the flame when soldering.

Remember, keep that flame a-movin.

Willie X
 

Willie X

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The video you linked is on jewelry repair.
"Silversmithing" is usually larger objects, like tableware, large bracelets, etc.

I think you are heavily overloaded with information now and need to get some experience ... is what I think. :)

Good luck, Willie X
 
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MuseChaser

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Well, all.... the deed is done...

faee200f-9514-40fe-b7ef-df6a6776f763.jpg 56058f17-a06a-4c49-aa52-671e9913affe.jpg

In hindsight, I could have used just a TAD more solder.. you can see that the very bottom of the crack isn't quite filled, but that vast majority is. The pinion gear is firmly affixed to the arbor, NO solder buildup anywhere to get in the way of smooth rotation of the minute gear, the cannon butts up against the soldered pinion smoothly with no gap and leaves the perfect amount of clearance for the minute hand (not shown), and I was able to relocate the brass collar that governs the tension on the spring with no problem. I placed the chip of solder on the side of the gear that is currently hidden by the minute gear, and there's good flow all around that arbor there, despite not much flow through to the visible side of that gear/arbor mating surface.

I can't thank you enough! Here's hoping that this is all that was wrong! Now... to get this puppy back together.
 

Dick Feldman

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My call on those broken/cracked motion works pinions is that the break is due to stress due to bad material.
Given that, the material in the entire gear is sub standard.
Repairing the gear without reinforcing the entire gear may cause failure at a later date.
The optimum solution, of course would be to make a new gear from brass that is not going to crack or break in the future.
I have that capability.
My second option would be to repair the original gear, including the reinforcement of the entire gear.
This is not out of question, using essentially the same tools used as described above and the repair would be virtually invisible.
Once repaired and reinforced, the gear will press on the arbor (as it was designed) without the need of solder to secure it.
If this is your definition of becoming "Pi$$y", I suppose I am.
I guess my standards are high.
Best Regards,
Dick
 

MuseChaser

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My call on those broken/cracked motion works pinions is that the break is due to stress due to bad material.
Given that, the material in the entire gear is sub standard.
Repairing the gear without reinforcing the entire gear may cause failure at a later date.
The optimum solution, of course would be to make a new gear from brass that is not going to crack or break in the future.
I have that capability.
My second option would be to repair the original gear, including the reinforcement of the entire gear.
This is not out of question, using essentially the same tools used as described above and the repair would be virtually invisible.
Once repaired and reinforced, the gear will press on the arbor (as it was designed) without the need of solder to secure it.
If this is your definition of becoming "Pi$$y", I suppose I am.
I guess my standards are high.
Best Regards,
Dick
Dick,

My use of that term applied to a fairly contentious discussion where undue aspersions were cast upon those with differing opinions as to what constituted "acceptable" repairs. Depending upon the clock on the bench, the customer/owner, finances involved, and tools available, that is VERY much a sliding scale. I have little patience for denigrating those with great expertise seeking to give us new-to-the-art folks procedural options. You did not do so, so no, the term would not apply to you. The clock I am repairing arrived in a basket case ... ummm.. case... with a dial that proudly proclaimed "Staiger Quartz" and had steel washers soldered on it in place of brass ferrules (or whatever they're called) in the winding arbor holes.. despite having an Ingraham mechanical movement dated 1929. It's another one of many perfect clocks for me to learn the craft on.

As far as having high standards... I very much do. I took the time to practice soldering on various pieces of scrap, absorbing all of the great hints Willie and RC gave me. If you look at the pictures, for a newbie doing his first soldering on a fairly delicate crowded spot, I'm hoping you can at least grant me that I took some care and some pride in doing the best I can with what I have to work with. Is this the ultimate, best-case-scenario, fully-tooled-shop, restore-to-museum-quality repair? Absolutely not. Am I interested in learning enough to be able to accomplish that type of repair? Absolutely. Specific hints towards that goal are ALWAYS welcome, especially techniques and hints that don't require the immediate purchase of a $1200 lathe.. although, yes, I'm interested enough in this pursuit and have high enough standards that I will, indeed, eventually own one. I do not now.

I appreciate the reply, Dick. Best wishes to you, too.

Barry
 

Willie X

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Looks great.

On my first one, back when dinosaurs walked the earth. I had to carve the solder out of the gear teeth for about 2 hours. And, after all that, it wasn't positioned properly. Every time I got a little better though.

The solder is the correct amount. I've done around 250 like this and I would be happy with that one.

There is always some tiny shortcoming but I've never had one come back, at least not for the same problem ...

Willie X
 
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R. Croswell

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My call on those broken/cracked motion works pinions is that the break is due to stress due to bad material.
Given that, the material in the entire gear is sub standard.
Repairing the gear without reinforcing the entire gear may cause failure at a later date.......

Best Regards,
Dick
It is impossible to tell for sure whether the brass is defective or the original machining was off resulting in a too tight fit that over stressed the brass which eventually filed. Not sure just what 'reinforcing the entire gear' means or if that is even possible. The important thing is to relieve the stress in the gear that caused the failure to a level the brass can stand without future failure. When the gear cracked the stress was effectively relieved. Slightly enlarging the hole in the gear for a slip fit will effectively relieve the stress and prevent the gear from cracking again. Soldering the relieved gear onto a bushing, or directly onto the arbor, will leave the gear in a mostly unstressed condition. There should be no issue with future cracking.

There are valid differences of opinion about solder repairs generally and there is no argument here that a new and properly machined brass gear would be the gold standard, I believe that MouseChaser did a beautiful solder job here that should last for the life of the clock. Of course he may be getting a visit from the solder police any time now.

RC
 
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MuseChaser

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... Of course he may be getting a visit from the solder police any time now.
"SZOOOoooo... Ve ssee you haff uzed TZODDERR!!! Pay-perssss... VEE must SZEE PAPERSSS!" Sigh... sometimes it feels like we're already there.. ;)

Just to wrap up.. once it was back together, there were a few other issues still to address it turns out. The escapement drops were VERY uneven... the escape tooth had a large, strong drop, but the entrance tooth was so close to the pallet that there was almost no drop. I haven't had to mess with escapements other than to adjust the overall depth of engagement in the past, except for a few 400-day clocks with adjustable pallets that someone had messed with. Those I kind of understand. This one was a bit of reading, a bit of trial and error, but I think I have it now. Both drops are fairly even (although not perfect) and both have a good strong "landing" tick just above the face of the pallets, and the clock is in beat and ran over night keeping good time, so I think that's solved. Another issue I ran into is that, when I moved the brass collar back into position that regulates the friction spring tension on the minute wheel/gear, I elected to go with a little less tension than previously, to reduce the stress on the repaired area and to make it easier to turn the hand without fear of bending the hand. That relocation of the collar back maybe 1/8" caused interference with the hammer levers, but i was able to make some slight bend adjustments to rectify that. The hand turn quite easily now compared to all my other clocks except for torsion clocks.... but it does stay in place.

Here she is. Now, does anyone have a 6 1/4" - 6 1/2" Ingraham dial with winding arbor holes 2" from center and 3 1/8" apart they'd like to part with? ;) Thanks again for all the help, encouragement, and kind words. Onward... I just had another similar Ingraham stop overnight that I haven't torn down before, an ST89 begging for more attention, a Waterbury Ogee, and a Waterbury monument clock all in the queue. What is the right term for those "monument" clocks,... the one's that look like the ST Adamantine clocks with pillars, etc.... ?

IngDone.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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"SZOOOoooo... Ve ssee you haff uzed TZODDERR!!! Pay-perssss... VEE must SZEE PAPERSSS!" Sigh... sometimes it feels like we're already there.. ;)

........ The escapement drops were VERY uneven... the escape tooth had a large, strong drop, but the entrance tooth was so close to the pallet that there was almost no drop.
Discussing the drops can be confusing, so we need to be sure we are talking about the same thing. You have an entrance pallet - the first pallet a tooth encounters, and an exit pallet - the last pallet the tooth encounters. It sound like you are talking about the drop onto the entrance pallet being tiny and the drop onto the exit pallet pallet being very large. If that is the case you need to close the pallets so they are closer together. Start with about 0.005" closer and see how it goes. You will also need to readjust the depth.

In most cases around here when one speaks of "entrance drop" they are referring to the drop off of the entrance pallet and drop off of the exit pallet. (Too much drop onto the exit pallet and too much drop off of the entrance pallet are the same thing)

Another issue I ran into is that, when I moved the brass collar back into position that regulates the friction spring tension on the minute wheel/gear, I elected to go with a little less tension than previously, to reduce the stress on the repaired area and to make it easier to turn the hand without fear of bending the hand. That relocation of the collar back maybe 1/8" caused interference with the hammer levers, but i was able to make some slight bend adjustments to rectify that. The hand turn quite easily now compared to all my other clocks except for torsion clocks.... but it does stay in place.
It will probably be fine but keep in mind that that clutch must be able to drive the motion works and hour pipe without slipping. If the hour hand starts loosing time and the minute hand is keeping time you will know what the problem is.

RC
 
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MuseChaser

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Discussing the drops can be confusing, so we need to be sure we are talking about the same thing. You have an entrance pallet - the first pallet a tooth encounters, and an exit pallet - the last pallet the tooth encounters. It sound like you are talking about the drop onto the entrance pallet being tiny and the drop onto the exit pallet pallet being very large. If that is the case you need to close the pallets so they are closer together. Start with about 0.005" closer and see how it goes. You will also need to readjust the depth.
That is EXACTLY what I meant, and exactly what I needed to do to correct it. Thanks for being able to understand and clarify my muddy descriptions. I know I'm getting off the topic of this thread, but may I ask a few more questions about this?

1. Is the corollary true, meaning, if the reverse is happening (the drop OFF the entrance pallet is tiny and the drop OFF the escape pallet is large), does one enlarge the space between the pallets?

2. The space between the pallets can be adjusted by either bending the arm that forms the bottom of the "U" shape of the verge, or by bending the arm of each individual pallet... or both. Doing either one of those things alone will slightly alter the angle of the faces as they contact the teeth. What is the proper way to address that? What needs to be taken into consideration?

In most cases around here when one speaks of "entrance drop" they are referring to the drop off of the entrance pallet and drop off of the exit pallet. (Too much drop onto the exit pallet and too much drop off of the entrance pallet are the same thing)
That really helps clear up a lot of confusion I have when reading about those things and looking at diagrams. I get it now.. thanks!


It will probably be fine but keep in mind that that clutch must be able to drive the motion works and hour pipe without slipping. If the hour hand starts loosing time and the minute hand is keeping time you will know what the problem is.

RC
I'll keep an eye on it. If it does get any looser, it will probably become a problem, but at least I know how to correct it... and I'm getting a lot faster at tearing down and reassembling a movement. I remember back a few months ago when it was scary and at least an all-day process if not more... now it's just a nice way to spend half an hour or so.

Seriously, any and all successes I've had, and there have been many more than I deserve, are due almost entirely to your help, Willie's, Shutterbug's, Will's, Schatznut's, and a few others (forgive me for leaving anyone out... there have been quite a few excellent teachers here)... and maybe a small dose of my own personal stubbornness. Let me know if you ever need a jazz pianist, arranger, or recording engineer!
 
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MuseChaser

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Thanks for the recommendations. My hesitation to purchase more reference texts at this point is not necessarily due to the cost; if it's money well-spent, then so be it.

I have Terwilliger's book for 400- and 1000-day movements, and three of Conover's books (Basic, Strike, and Chime). Terwilliger's book was immediately useful for backplate identification and templates for suspension units, and the historical stuff was interesting to read. I've read the chapter in there about Graham escapements many, many times. The first few times, I had NO idea what he was talking about... the terminology mystified me, and there wasn't much attempt in the text to define the terms. I will reread it again now, with your help, I've accumulated a bit more background knowledge. Conover's texts, too, are becoming more and more useful to me as I struggle my way through an increasing number of different movements and configurations. Again, however, they seem to be more useful AFTER the fact.... as in, once I figure something out simply by staring at the movement itself enough and playing with it, then I go back and re-re-read Stephen's book and say, "OHhhh..... that's what he meant."

I fear that $65 spent on Laurie's book may end up being a bit more of the same. It's funny.. I have excellent reading comprehension, but this stuff takes a long time to sink in simply because I am still unfamiliar with the terminology and conventions. My only interaction with learned clock repair folks is right here. I've joined the local chapter, too, recently, but have yet to have the opportunity to meet any of the local folks or attend a meeting, online or otherwise. It's kind of like how I feel reading a French novel geared towards adults.. I can get the gist of it, as I can speak French at about the level of a French four-year-old, but any advanced or subtle usage goes way over my head.

If I'm wrong, and you still feel the Perlman book would be of benefit, then I'll pick up a copy. By now, I think most of you may have a fairly good grasp of what I can and can't do and understand.
 

R. Croswell

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Penman's book is more of a go to reference book than something one would expect to read cover to cover and come away knowing all there is to know bout escapements. If is very well illustrated and has a section on making other repairs as well as making complete escapements - that is if you have the machine tools to do so. I do not presume to tell anyone how to spend their money but this is a nice book to have. Same for Tom Temple's Entreme Restoration. I guess one learns to understand "clock speak" as one uses it.

RC
 

shutterbug

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You adjust entrance drop by altering the distance between the pallets. You adjust the exit drop by altering the distance between the EW and the verge/anchor. What you do to one will also affect the other, so it's a bit of a dance.
 
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R. Croswell

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You adjust entrance drop by altering the distance between the pallets. You adjust the exit drop by altering the distance between the EW and the verge/anchor. What you do to one will also affect the other, so it's a bit of a dance.
Yes, if you understand "entrance drop" to be the drop off of the entrance pallet. The OP was apparently describing the drops onto the pallets. "Entrance drop" - (drop off of the entrance pallet) is the same thing as the drop onto the exit pallet. Actually I find it more intuitive and easier to judge the drops onto the pallets. That is I find it easier to judge "entrance drop" at the exit pallet. I think I need to exit and drop my butt on the lawn tractor and cut a half-acre of grass.

RC
 
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shutterbug

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Yep, good points, RC. I bought a robotic lawnmower, but I'm not sure if it could handle 1/2 acre. Maybe. But it doesn't like steep inclines ;)
 
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wow

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Here’s one I just finished yesterday where the brass collar and the cannon pinion were both cracked. I made a new collar and pressed it in place. Then used liquid silver bearing solder to fill the crack on the pinion and soldered it to the arbor while clamping the crack tight with small vice grips. There is still a tiny crack but the space is so small the teeth still mesh. The tension is perfect to be able to set the minute hand.

5CBDE50A-80C4-42D9-924C-576A0121E75D.jpeg C2CF2443-98BB-4A4A-8D76-A2B4E1F4A78F.jpeg 4F8A92F7-8FCD-45DC-AE31-33D83BF27442.jpeg
 

MuseChaser

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A quick, thread-drifted follow-up...

Yet another huge "THANK YOU" to RC and Shutterbug. A ST89 I had done about a month ago (my second foray into hand bushing a couple enlarged pivot holes) ran well for about three weeks then stopped, and I've been wrestling with it for a bit. I did a few more bushings that I had deferred last time (now that I'm more comfortable with the procedure and getting better results faster), and noticed that I had left the escape wheel just a TAD on the "tight" side last time. Freed that up just a tad with a few twirls of a broach... reassembled for a finger test... MUCH better. YAY. Then... fully assembled... and.... STILL wouldn't run for any length of time, and still really fussy about being EXACTLY in beat to run at all. Took a closer look at the escape, with your above posts in hand, and this time it all kind of clicked. Opened up the space between the pallets... Ahhhh! There's the increase in the anemic tiny drop OFF the entrance pallet! Now... adjust the verge depth a bit to get the escape drop to be even with it... back and forth once or twice.... GOT IT! Steady, even, and strong escape action.

YOU GUYS ARE THTTTEEEEEEE BBBBEEESSSSTTTTT!
 
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shutterbug

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That's great news! It's a hard concept to understand until you've done it. You are officially in a whole different league now :)
 

MuseChaser

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Thanks for the "promotion"... I couldn't have done it without both of ya! :)

A question/observation.... with my combination heavy bag/speed bag/clock test stand, it was very difficult to see the entrance pallet on the ST89. Earlier we discussed that the drop OFF of the entrance pallet is analogous to the drop ONTO the exit pallet, and vice versa. The exit pallet was easily visible where I had the movement hung for testing, and I noticed that once I had everything set correctly and the movement was running well, the drops on, then off, the exit pallet were symmetrical which would make sense given the previous statement. Is there any reason, other than something particularly problematic with a physical defect in the entrance pallet, that one should avoid just looking for even drops from and to the SAME pallet? For me, that was much easier to judge, as you could keep your eyes in the same place, and comparing the distances to and from was easier than comparing distances travelled at two different locations.
 
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