Ingraham 8 Day Clock Only Strikes Once

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by gmagic911x, Mar 14, 2018.

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  1. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

    Sep 3, 2011
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    The clock no longer strikes the number of hours. It only strikes 1 time at each hour. Does the part at the end of the screw driver need to engage the peg on the gear to the right of it?

    1521037893505-202027542.jpg
     
  2. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    No, that protrusion is the riveted end of hammer lift pin. The warning action takes place at the warning wheel, it's pin is directly north of the screwdriver one wheel higher in the train. Willie X
     
  3. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Boy I wish I knew the correct (or any) terminology on these parts but you might have to adjust (bend) one of the levers. I'm not exactly sure how this movement is set up but you have a count wheel lever that drops into notches on the count wheel. At the other end of that lever you'll have part that also drops into a notch on a cam. That cam has 2 notches opposite of each other. What could be happening is those levers arent at the correct "bend". Please though someone add to my thought process
     
  4. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That movement has been in the hands of a shade tree mechanic who added some parts that should not be there, and possibly tinkered with the levers too. That one has two combination levers. One raises the other, and both combine to set up the warning run, hold it until the proper time, release it and then count the strikes. I believe that particular movement is one of the easier ones to set up, but the whole movement needs to be taken apart and it's needs properly addressed and corrected. Are you ready to tackle it?
    I suspect that your immediate issue is caused by the stop lever being too low, stopping the count prematurely after a single strike. It should only stop the train when the count lever enters a deep slot.
     
  5. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    It would be helpful if we could see the other side of the movement, especially the area around the count wheel.

    Your clock has some homemade "bushings" that look likes pieces of brass with a hole for the pivot which are glued to the plates? Something like a homegrown version of a Rathbun bushing. It seems that somebody worked on the clock with "unconventional" methods. Maybe this person also bent a lever causing the strike to fail.

    Uhralt
     
  6. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    gmag,
    It would probably help you to read some of the previous threads that address your problem. Just use the search feature and type in something like 'timing count wheel clocks'.
    Goof luck, Willie X
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I think what's happening is when the count lever blade drops into the shallow space between the teeth on the count wheel it is allowing the stop lever to drop a little too far so its hitting the stop pin and prevents the striking from continuing. Hold the fan so the wheels won't move, then lift the count lever blade away from the count wheel and notice the other lever that moves with it (attached to the same arbor). Now follow that other lever out to its end and you should see a pin on the wheel (gear) that will catch that lever when the count lever is in one of the deep slots in the count wheel. The problem is that its catching the stop pin even when it isn't in a deep slot. You should be able to either bend the count lever or that stop lever just a bit so it doesn't snag the stop pin when the count blade is between the shallow gear teeth but does arrest the stop pin when the count blade in in one of the count wheel slots.

    These Ingrahams do not have the usual "maintenance cam". There should be two pins on that wheel by the screwdriver that that serve the same purpose, in addition to the two that lift the hammer. If you observe what's going on carefully it should come clear just what the problem is and how to fix it.

    RC
     
  9. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

    Sep 3, 2011
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    I'm trying to determine why the clock only chimes once every hour rather than multiple times. Can some one tell me what the red circled peg on the gear on the right is supposed to engage with? Now there is no engagement with anything.

    Clock 20180324_111803.jpg
     
  10. rodlloyd

    rodlloyd Registered User
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  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That pin is the warning pin, and it's function is to hold the train in warning until the top of the hour. It will only activate before the strike (your clock doesn't chime), and you should see it happen somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes before the hour. The strike sequence should continue until the count hook falls into a deep slot on the count wheel. I suspect that it's stopping when the count hook is in the other teeth. That would indicate that the stop lever is too deep, stopping the train prematurely.

    I have merged the two threads on this problem. It's always best to keep everything together so everyone can see what has already been discussed.
     
  12. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    #12 claussclocks, Mar 24, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    On an Ingraham also needs to check the center arbor striking pins or cam. Ingraham used a thin flat piece of brass with a round pin on the end that comes in contact with a center arbor post as the hour approached. If this thin brass lever does not contact the center arbor post the warning arm will not be lifted high enough to release for the hour strike. Looking at your photo, the steel arm showing at about mid plate with the bent end towards the center arbor should be meeting up with that pin on the center arbor. If that arm is not lifting high enough to release the pin and allow the train to go to a warning state then the pin on the center arbor may be slipping past its contact point and be setting too low. It may just default to lifting the hammer for one strike. Harder to explain than to show but I do not have an Ingraham movement apart at the moment. One question, does the train run when it strikes one time or does the hammer just lift and fall against the gong? I would follow all the advice above as well. Those are all very likely causes. As mentioned this clock has been abused somewhere. Those plates soldered on to replace worn bushings are wrong but appear to be on the time train so should not affect strike operation.
     
  13. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    Although I think everyone so far is probably correct about one of the levers being goofed up, I did think one one other possibility on a Ingraham.

    The count wheel on a Ingraham is advanced by a pin(extended pinion) on the third(I think) wheel. If the pin is broken off, and the count lever is in a deep slot, the clock will only strike once each time.
     
  14. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    I took it to a repair person who was highly recommended. Apparently the recommenders aren't as technically inquisitive as I am. I spent $120 to have it repaired. When I picked it up he commented that it strikes once on the hour, but I thought he meant it was working again. Later I took it back to him and he said it was worn out and the works needed to be replaced. I saw the plates he glued on thinking that was a common practice. From the comments, NOT. I'll continue to tinker. It runs okay, and keeps good time, so maybe I'll have to settle for that.
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    There are many people out there who advertise that they repair clocks, but who don't know diddly about how to actually do it. I'm afraid that you found one of those, and your money was wasted. It's a shame, and makes those of us who actually DO repair clocks look bad. If you're willing to try it again, you will hopefully find a guy who knows what he's doing.
    Do you live in the USA?
    If there's a NAWCC chapter near you, they might be able to make a recommendation.
     
  16. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    Good point. More pictures would help
     
  17. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #17 R. Croswell, Mar 24, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Here's a short video of an Ingraham strike sequence. The video begins looking at the wheel just in front of the screw driver in the first post except we are looking from the other side. The strike is stopped. There are 4 pins on this wheel - there is no maintenance cam. The pins near the edge of the wheel are stop pins. Note that one pin is locked on the lever (visible from the front of the clock). (The count lever is and released - the count lever is on the same arbor and moves with this lever). Note that when the count blade drops between the teeth of the count wheel, the stop lever comes closer to the stop pin but not close enough to grab it. When the count blade drops into one of the slots on the count wheel the stop lever drops further and grabs the stop pin. I believe your stop lever is dropping too far and grabbing the stop pin before the strike sequence completes. Make sure the count blade hasn't been damaged. It would help to see pictures of the count wheel side of your clock.

    http://www.greenfieldclockshop.com/mybox/Ingraham-strike.MP4

    Ignore the last half of the video. It takes three hands to turn this gizmo off and it only focuses on close objects.

    RC

    Video plays OK in Windows IE or Edge, won't play in Chrome, Sorry low have to save it and use windows media player from chrome.
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    These clocks have stamped levers and I suspect one of them has moved out of position. Watch the count finger, it should dip into each slot in the count wheel and then rise about 1/8" above the top of the count wheel teeth. If this stroke is shy and the count finger just barely clears the count wheel teeth, this will make it difficult to to get the height of the warning lever adjusted so that the train always continues to run in the shallow countwheel slots and always stop in the deep slots.
    Willie X
     
  19. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    I'm still tinkering. Here's front pic of clock.

    20180330_100640-1.jpg
     
  20. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I can't see it very clearly but it seems that the lever blade doesn't fall freely into the count wheel slot but is wedged to the right side under tension. If this is the case the count wheel needs to be moved clockwise for one tooth so that the lever falls into the center of the slot.

    Uhralt
     
  21. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    It's not catching the stop pin when not in a deep slot, only when it's in a deep slot.
     
  22. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Just a bit more information please:

    1. Is the count lever blade at "A" dropping in the center of the slot and not hanging on either edge?
    2. Is the count wheel actually moving at all? There should be a pair of pins extending from the lantern pinion at "C" that step the count wheel ahead.
    3. The stop pin at "B" does not appear to be in contact with the stop lever. So can you see just what it is that's preventing the strike train from running?

    RC

    ingraham-abc.jpg
     
  23. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    That won't work on an Ingraham like this because the count wheel isn't gear driven. It is advanced by the gathering pallets on the lantern pinion. However, the blade may be loose on the count lever or bent. Now if the lantern pinion has slipped on the arbor there is a possibility that the count wheel may be advancing when the blade drops instead of at rest. That's not very likely but a possibility that exists.

    RC
     
  24. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Ah, I see. I also noticed that the teeth of the count wheel appear to be bent, especially the ones at the slots. Maybe that is something of significance and related to the problem? Would a slipped lantern pinion cause this?

    Uhralt
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    If the count wheel is too loose it could be possible if the blade is not positioned correctly that the blade could displace count wheel such that the gathering pin clashes on the tooth instead of slipping in between two teeth. I suspect the problem here is simpler.
     
  26. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Is the count wheel turning? I expected to see the count lever in a different position on the wheel. If it's not turning, there's your problem.
     
  27. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    A new problem has developed. The spring on the right won't stop unwinding. Had to place piece of plastic between 2 gears to stop it. Also what is the purpose of the short piece of black wire on top of the pencil on the right? I'm ready to junk this project.

    Clock20180402_095056-1.jpg
     
  28. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The "wire" is the retainer for the verge. It has come off from its proper position. It seems that the verge is loose now so that the train can spin freely. Put the verge back on its post and move the verge retainer over on top of the post. The verge should move freely but should not come off from the post.

    How about our question, does the count wheel move at all when the clock strikes?

    Uhralt
     
  29. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Please don't do that!!!!!!

    These Ingram movements are basic American time & strike movements. A very good movement to learn on. Other than the half-deadbeat escapement there is really nothing especially strange here. If you learn this one you should be able to do almost any American time and strike movement from this era. Once you get it right, they do run very well. When someone fails and gives up, then we have all failed to provide adequate help. Stick with us - victory is close at hand!

    We really do need to know id the count wheel is advancing at all. The picture below shows what should be there to advance the count wheel. The two small pins stuck in the lantern pinion advance the count wheel tooth by tooth after each hammer drop. If they have fallen out, or are badly bent, or the bushing is excessively sloppy, the count wheel may not advance which could definitely cause the symptoms described.

    RC

    ingraham-gp.jpg
     
  30. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    I truly appreciate the advice I'm receiving! I need to build a support stand so I can observe the operation of the works outside the wood clock housing. After I accomplish that I will post more accurate responses.
     
  31. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Uhralt beat me to it.

     
  32. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    This is the fixture I made to observe the clock running so I could try to answer questions, but now the damned thing won't run. It's perfectly level side to side, fore and aft. I'm ticked off. Pun intended.

    clock fixture20180402_182210-1.jpg
     
  33. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Based on the picture I would say the first thing to do is to wind the main spring.

    RC
     
  34. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Well for one thing, your clock has completely run down. Willie X
     
  35. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    Ha! Good observation, but the photo was taken before I wound the spring. Still doesn't run.
     
  36. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    Please excuse my lack of knowledge about what the parts are called, but the 2 ears on the U shaped part at the top of the pendulum will engage the slots in the wheel for a few seconds and then the ears will miss the slots and bottom out on the O.D. of the wheel and the clock stops. Any thoughts on why that happens?
     
  37. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    Now, the wheel that the 2 ears engage, oscillates back and forth (no advancement) until the pendulum stops.
     
  38. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Just for completeness, did you remove the piece of plastic that you put between wheels to stop the clock from running down? That would certainly stop the clock.

    Uhralt
     
  39. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #39 R. Croswell, Apr 3, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2018
    That "wheel" would be the escape wheel and the two "ears" would be the pallets at each end of what is commonly referred to as the verge. Will the escape wheel advance if the pendulum is moved by hand to the extreme left and right? If yes, next check if the movement is "in beat". Simply put this means the pendulum has to move the same distance each side of its center resting position for the clock to be in beat. If its very out of beat it won't run sitting level but it may run if you raise one side or the other (*un-level the movement). This is a half-deadbeat movement. The pallets (ears) each have two surfaces or faces. One is the locking face where the escape wheel tooth lands and the other is the impulse face where the escape wheel tooth transfers power to the pendulum. The spacing of the verge from the escape wheel is somewhat critical. If the ew teeth are landing on the impulse face the clock won't run.

    RC

    Dave has a good animation of a half-deadbeat at this link: About Time Clockmaking
     
  40. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    If the escape wheel is not advancing as the pallets move back and forth, you have a power problem elsewhere in the movement. Also, in the pic it doesn't look like the pendulum is attached. Movements often won't function without the pendulum.
     
  41. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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  42. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    gmag,
    You may have accidentally damaged the escape wheel when you let the escapewheel run free.
    It might be best to take your clock to a reputable repair person and let them do the necessary repair work. Then you can kick back and enjoy your nice clock.
    Willie X
     
  43. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    I've already spent $120 on a so called repair. It's not worth more $.
     
  44. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Can we see a pic of the escape wheel teeth now? That will show if there is damage and/or how bad it is.
     
  45. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    For that money you should have recieved a warranty. Under the laws of most states the shop can either make good on their repair or refund your money.

    Now that you have tried to repair it yourself, all bets are probably off on any warranty you may have had. :(

    Willie X
     
  46. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    Where is the escapement wheel?
     
  47. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    You called it "the wheel that the two ears engage".

    Uhralt
     
  48. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    I put a a dot of pink paint on the wheel to see if it stops at the same place every time and It does after 1 revolution. After I get the pendulum swinging, I have to give it a nudge to make it run again, but it stops at the pink dot after 1 rev every time.
     
  49. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    So at least you get some power to the escape wheel. Sounds like you might have bent a tooth. Can you post a close up picture of the escape wheel?
    Related to the original question, we still need to know whether the count wheel moves when the clock is striking or not.
    Uhralt
     
  50. gmagic911x

    gmagic911x Registered User

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    clock red20180403_174955-1.jpg
     

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