$ Information

lacho1674

Registered User
Jan 12, 2021
43
9
8
47
Sofia , Bulgaria
Country
Hello members do you know more about this pocket watch and is it for service because I am consider to buy it
Regards

CC8EE853-C652-4B29-8C69-CDCD9755EC72.jpeg B121C746-7CBF-425E-A9E2-A49D32A7B096.jpeg 0CBFB844-ACBF-467F-B315-E2E6363CD4A2.jpeg 33B3071F-C792-410D-B8ED-1E6C29E064C5.jpeg 56BFDE64-CE5B-4369-8909-FBBFCE22A1C1.jpeg
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi lacho1674,
Hello members do you know more about this pocket watch and is it for service because I am consider to buy it
If this is being sold as an English watch, I'm afraid it isn't. The name 'Bullingford' (or 'Billingford' as it's written on the dial; different from the movement and a reason to be cautious), was widely used by fakers, probably in Switzerland, who were aiming the watch at the Dutch market, hence the characteristic arcaded dial. These are often described as 'Dutch Fakes', but they were intended mainly for the Dutch market, not made there. London watches had a very good reputation in the 18th and 19th centuries and fakers used the name freely.

Regards,

Graham
 
  • Like
Reactions: lacho1674

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,344
1,689
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
The fakery was long ago and makes the watch of interest in its own way.

The OP asked about service and here the fakery may be an issue. Even very fine examples are very difficult for contemporary repair people. If the watch runs Ok and the price is comparable to a more "correct" example buy it if you like it.

The problem is that these fakes are even more difficult to get running right, and you will never recover the cost of the repair.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aucaj and lacho1674

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi lacho1674,

Movement_crop.jpg

If the watch was genuine, the area I've circled in red should contain a diamond endstone in a steel setting, with the upper balance staff pivot hole underneath it, (usually a jewel hole but not always), but on this watch the setting and whatever was in it have been removed, revealing a blank space. This shows that the original jewel and setting were purely cosmetic. Perhaps it was removed under the mistaken impression that the stone was valuable; the real diamonds used were generally of poor quality and unsuitable for use as gemstones in jewellery, but satisfactory for this use.

Regards,

Graham
 

Allan C. Purcell

NAWCC Member
Feb 9, 2013
3,565
1,710
113
Germany
Country
Region
To a point, I think Jon is correct, these watches were made to decide, but long ago. John Matthews and I have spent many hours proving these watches were made in Coventry. When you know who made them a litle of the fakery is hidden. When in good condition like the one below they are, truly very nice and interesting verge watches, but the one above is just not worth the repair. If you put Bullingham on the Search Forums you will see many more. Then, next time you see one you can make a better value, and I hope an exciting watch. If you want me to put more of these on board please say so.

Best wishes, and good luck,

Allan

PS: The hallmarks on the case are the letter Z for 1797 the anchor for Birmingham and the V&R for Vale & Rotherham The Lion is for sterling silver.

IMG_1454.JPG IMG_1452.JPG
 

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,979
2,092
113
France
Country
Region
Allan - this is not Bullingford, it's Billingford - with an 'i' not 'u'.

The movement and the dial have all the characteristics of being made in Europe and not in Coventry This watch was made in the style of an English watch in order to deceive that it was made in England.

The 'genuine' Coventry watches, signed Bullingford, London, started to appear in the 1820s. As far as I am aware all these watches were made by Vale and Rotherham and are in English cases hallmarked in Birmingham with the maker's mark V.R There are also similar examples signed Bullingford, Liverpool that are less common. Here is a 'Speed of the Plough' example, similarly annotated examples can be found with 'genuine' signatures.

20200117 013.jpg 20200117 005.jpg 20200117 009.jpg 20200117 001.jpg

It is my believe that the movements Bullingford signatures, were at the time in the UK, known to be English made - the use of the addresses in London and Liverpool, were used as a marketing ploy. Many were sold in the UK and significant numbers exported to America. There was no deception as to the country of origin. There was a deception as to where the watch was finished, but they were English - unlike lacho's example. The Vale and Rotherham 'Bullingfords' do not differ in quality from the similar grade of watches that were either signed Vale & Rotherham, Coventry or with the signature of an English retailer.

I believe Graham is mistaken - those watches signed Bullingford were made in Coventry, BUT your watch is as Graham indicated, an example of watch made in Europe that was using the name 'Billingford' as an additional attempt to deceive the customer that this was English made. I suspect it was made in the second quarter of the C19th. The majority of the components of the watch were probably made in Switzerland or possibly in neighbouring France and finished in Holland. In all probability Dutch based traders would have sold it into their export markets, including Eastern Europe and Russia.

John
 
Last edited:

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi John,

The dial is signed for 'Billingford' but the movement is certainly signed for 'Bullingford'.

Regards,

Graham
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bernhard J.

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,979
2,092
113
France
Country
Region
Graham - yes you are correct - apology I should have noted that.

The case has a Birmingham hallmark for 1853/54, which could be genuine. Vale & Rotherham became Rotherham & Sons in
~1840. The movement serial number is #9095. The serial numbers of V&R <10000 follow a good chronological sequence. If this was a movement made by Vale & Rotherham it would would been produced in the years 1830-1835.

1661146702852.png

If it had been a genuine V&R movement, he cock table would not have had have been jewelled - it would have looked like this

20200117 011.jpg


John
 
Last edited:

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi John,

On a more subjective point, the engraving on the cock table is very sketchy, quite rudimentary in fact. There's also a visible gap between the cock foot and the slide plate, adding to the impression that this watch was rather 'thrown together'.

Regards,

Graham
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bernhard J.

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,979
2,092
113
France
Country
Region
Yes Graham I agree. I wonder if those responsible for 'assembling' these types of movements accumulated components from different sources, from a number of countries, and then cobbled them together, e.g. in this case including adding a cap jewel onto an unjewelled cock.

John
 

Allan C. Purcell

NAWCC Member
Feb 9, 2013
3,565
1,710
113
Germany
Country
Region
Graham - yes you are correct - apology I should have noted that.

The case has a Birmingham hallmark for 1853/54, which could be genuine. Vale & Rotherham became Rotherham & Sons in
~1840. The movement serial number is #9095. The serial numbers of V&R <10000 follow a good chronological sequence. If this was a movement made by Vale & Rotherham it would would been produced in the years 1830-1835.

On 15/5/1814 Mrs Wain took her R. Edmonds Liverpool pocket watch for a new hook on the watch chain, to Osborne & Wright´s repair shop in New York

On 21/7/1814, Mr Benschottens took his William Bullington Liverpool pocket watch for cleaning to the Osborne & Wright repair shop in New York.

This is from the list in the thread "The Book" it goes on for another 51 pages to the year 1830. I am not going to count all the fake names from Coventry for you two, or answer your fantasies about when these watches were made.

If you do look at the book, here are a few of the names to look for.
Alexander
B.Edwards
C. Edmonds
D. Edmonds
C. Darlington
C Hollison
John Edmonds
Bullingford
Wil. Bullingford. SN 1006.
Alex. Hollison (Strange but lucky, on the ) 9/12/1817 Mr Parson brought in his Alex. Hollison Liverpool pocket watch, for the repair of the main chain and click. I own this one SN 5641.)

All the others came before 1816, so you can imagine how many more there are before 1830.

In the book on page 50. It says, "7/ 11/ 1829 (The last entry for Bullingford) Mr Lloyd took his Bullington London SN 5095 to Osborn & Wright for Cleaning.


Vale & Others

This thread is some unfinished work. It is still ongoing. Though it is worth a look for those who want to know more about these Coventry watches.


IMG_1457[1].JPG Just for the record, none of these early watches by Vale & Rotherham had end stones. This is the Alex Hollison SN 5641.


IMG_1458.JPG Alex Hollison SN 5644.

Allan
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ethan Lipsig

Allan C. Purcell

NAWCC Member
Feb 9, 2013
3,565
1,710
113
Germany
Country
Region
I have just seen a Bullingford in the UK they want $600 for it (Start price) No end stone SN hard to read, could be 0909.

Allan.
 

Jeremy Lynn

Registered User
Jul 20, 2021
23
7
3
61
Country
I have just seen a Bullingford in the UK they want $600 for it (Start price) No end stone SN hard to read, could be 0909.

Allan.
Apologies, I posted these pictures elsewhere on a similar thread - before I read these intriguing comments about Dutch fakes.

I bought this Vale & Company, Coventry yesterday.
It had been passed over at auction and I felt a little sorry for it. It was mounted in a bronze stand which I've removed for cleaning.

The dial is sadly very beaten up - there's a lump missing and several cracks. I suspect someone drove a screw through the dial from below...

The movement - to my eyes anyway - is rather nice.
It has no endstone and what looks like solder where the jewel might have been.
But the balance cock is interesting - it's decorated with a man's head, possibly Chinese.

I'm still struggling to find a way of extricating it from the case.
Is there a technique to removing hands with a setting square, or can they just be levered off in the usual way? Will the square come off with the hands, or must it be removed first?

Thanks for any advice or info.

JL

Vale 1.jpeg Vale 2.jpeg Vale 3.jpeg Vale 4.jpeg Vale 5.jpeg
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Oliver,
The hands should come off by the usual means.
Yes, the minute hand is held on the cannon pinion square purely by friction, so it should come off with little effort, although a Presto hand puller would do the job if you have one.

It's hard to see quite how the movement is held in that case, now that you've removed those screws, perhaps a more general view of the front would help. The dial is repairable but will never look perfect unless it's completely re-finished, which is an expensive option.

Regards,

Graham
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bernhard J.

John Matthews

NAWCC Member
Sep 22, 2015
3,979
2,092
113
France
Country
Region
On the basis of similar movements signed 'Vale & Comp Coventry' my best estimate of the date when your movement was made is 1794. This date is consistent with the serial numbers, the design of the back plate and cock and the use of a head and shoulders portrait motif at the base of the cock table.

John
 

Jeremy Lynn

Registered User
Jul 20, 2021
23
7
3
61
Country
On the basis of similar movements signed 'Vale & Comp Coventry' my best estimate of the date when your movement was made is 1794. This date is consistent with the serial numbers, the design of the back plate and cock and the use of a head and shoulders portrait motif at the base of the cock table.

John
Many thanks.
I was hoping it might just sneak in as late 18th century. I think the stand it’s fitted to is a little later. When I’ve worked out how to put it back together, I’ll post a shot of it.
 

Jeremy Lynn

Registered User
Jul 20, 2021
23
7
3
61
Country
Hi Oliver,


Yes, the minute hand is held on the cannon pinion square purely by friction, so it should come off with little effort, although a Presto hand puller would do the job if you have one.

It's hard to see quite how the movement is held in that case, now that you've removed those screws, perhaps a more general view of the front would help. The dial is repairable but will never look perfect unless it's completely re-finished, which is an expensive option.

Regards,

Graham
Thank you, Graham.
I may take a stab at it over the weekend. I’ve got a set of those Bergeohandpullers, but I think they might be too flimsy for the task.
Is there any point in putting a drop of oil on it in advance?
Thanks for the advice about removing the movement. It’s a bit tricky as the whole thing is set into the case and there’s no access from the side or underneath. The dial is already in bad shape and I suspect that trying to lever it up (after I’ve got the hands off) will reduce it to rubble.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Jeremy,
The dial is already in bad shape and I suspect that trying to lever it up (after I’ve got the hands off) will reduce it to rubble.
Please don't try to lever it off, you'll risk doing further damage to it. If you want to free the movement from the case, it may just be held in there by friction, so careful pressure from the back of the movement may move it. If it won't move, it would be best to leave it as it is until you can get it looked at.

Regards,

Graham
 

Jeremy Lynn

Registered User
Jul 20, 2021
23
7
3
61
Country
Hi Jeremy,


Please don't try to lever it off, you'll risk doing further damage to it. If you want to free the movement from the case, it may just be held in there by friction, so careful pressure from the back of the movement may move it. If it won't move, it would be best to leave it as it is until you can get it looked at.

Regards,

Graham
Ok. I’ll be cautious.
If you are offering, I’ll bring it down!
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,285
3,403
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Jeremy,

All in good time . . .

Regards,

Graham
 

Forum statistics

Threads
176,386
Messages
1,543,928
Members
53,280
Latest member
JustBernie
Encyclopedia Pages
1,064
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-