Information need to this french pocket watch

[sternerp]

Earlier i show two repeaters in the complicated pocket watches section, this low serial numbered silver watch arrived to me with the repeaters together.
If i read the inscription good: Repassé par Robin, and the serial number is 5!
I welcome any new information from this watch.

 

[zedric]

"Repassé par" i believe translates to "examined by", which would mean the watch was not made by Robin, but retailed by him

 

[agemo]

Hi,
The exact definition,
Repassé : Ultimate and complete mechanical and aesthetic control of an inserted watch just before it leaves the production workshops.

So it's not necessarily the retailer.

Amicalement GG

 

[Bernhard J.]

It seems to be in a nice condition, the dial without hairlines and in particular the winding hole without chips.

I would date the watch around 1810-1820, perhaps even a little bit later. The movement is more or less "standard" with respect to the layout. There are quite a lot of this type of watches on the market, resulting in that they often are undervalued. Your watch imo stands out not only because of the condition of the dial, but also the high quality and condition of the movement, both quite away from "standard". The balance bridge as well as the regulator scale and hand are clearly above average.

Congratulations for this very nice example.

 

[aucaj]

Earlier i show two repeaters in the complicated pocket watches section, this low serial numbered silver watch arrived to me with the repeaters together.
If i read the inscription good: Repassé par Robin, and the serial number is 5!
I welcome any new information from this watch.

View attachment 718335 View attachment 718336 View attachment 718337 View attachment 718338 View attachment 718339 View attachment 718340

That is an interesting watch. Your watch as the outward appearance of a verge escapement. However, the escapement wheel appears to have straight teeth. It could be that your watch is a Sully escapement (either original or converted). Robin invented his own escapement design, but this escapement appears to have a vertical layout. Could you provide additional photos of the escapement? Could you remove the balance bridge and take a photo, if you feel comfortable doing so?

Regards,
Chris

 

[Bernhard J.]

Hi Chris,

I would say a normal verge escapement? The teeth stand in axial direction. The Sully escapement has teeth extending in radial direction.

 

[John Matthews]

Chris - this escapement also caught my eye.

Not Sully, I think it probably is an offset verge




I should add that this is often referred to as the Ormskirk 'Sully type' - here from my collection is what I believe it probably is ...


I don't understand what appears to be an adjustment block containing a slide gmorse help!

John

 

[Bernhard J.]

In the escapement of Fig. 1 the crown wheel seems to be farther away from the balance wheel arbor, compared with a verge escapement? But perhaps a matter of perspective in the photo.

 

[John Matthews]

A thought - not sure if this is feasible, but could the slide possibly be to provide fine adjustment of the the offset of the pallets to the axis of the crown wheel?

John

 

[aucaj]

Thanks, The photo fooled me. I can clearly see it is a verge; can’t always trust your eyes on first glance

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

A thought - not sure if this is feasible, but could the slide possibly be to provide fine adjustment of the the offset of the pallets to the axis of the crown wheel?

Yes, entirely feasible, it's the usual adjustment mechanism in French and Swiss verges of this age.



Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Graham - any chance of a photograph of your example dismantled?

I am wondering what the grey material is on the bottom - there appears to be similar between the pillar plate and the adjustment block on this example.

John

 

[Audemars]

So it's not necessarily the retailer.

"Repassage" appears so very often in the Louis Audemars books, also with the recorded names of the "repasseurs" of the "superior" quality products, that in my (fairly humble) opinion it had nothing to do with the eventual retailer.

In English shoe factories we used to call it "final passing".
It was always done by a very experienced craftsman who was deeply familiar with all the operations in the factory from leather cutting to finishing. Knowing the background of some of the names recorded in the LA "superior quality" record I am sure they also put it in very experienced hands.

The more general English translation of "repasser" is "to go over again" - in the context of edged instruments it means to sharpen, and in laundry it means to do the ironing, &c &c

Paul

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

This is from a Swiss watch, roughly the same age as the French one in my previous post, and in a poor state. The lower plate forms a steel end piece for the balance staff pivot. In the first two pictures, the piece with three screws carries the inboard pivot of the escape wheel and allows the drops to be equalised and the escape wheel depthing to be altered.



Regards,

Graham

 

[sternerp]

WOW!

Thank you very much for the answers for everyone!

This is my first french verge pocket watch, earlier I've never seen one like this. I've seen english verge movements before, but I don't remember, that them having this adjustment mechanism, that shown by Graham. I tried to make enough good photos about this part and from the escapement, but i can not make a better with my telephone;-)

I'm not a watchmaker, and I didn't dare take it off the balance bridge, because the mainspring is tensioned little.

My curiosity has caused damage to my watches before;-(

I upload some more photos from the watch case and the case marks, perhaps this will help you better identify the age of the watch.

 

[gmorse]

Hi sternerp,

I've seen english verge movements before, but I don't remember, that them having this adjustment mechanism

That's right, you won't see this in an English watch, it seems to be an exclusively French/Swiss mechanism. It allows the adjustments to be made without dismantling the movement; so much easier than the English way!

Regards,

Graham

 

[VinSer]

... The exact definition,
Repassé : Ultimate and complete mechanical and aesthetic control of an inserted watch just before it leaves the production workshops.
...

"Repassage" appears so very often in the Louis Audemars books, also with the recorded names of the "repasseurs" of the "superior" quality products, that in my (fairly humble) opinion it had nothing to do with the eventual retailer.
...

Just to keep the double discussion on-going

The definition given by Agemo looks to me quite recent.

Below is how Breguet son (if I am not wrong) explains the process for making a watch in the International Jury Report of Class 23 (Horlogerie) for the world exhibition of 1867 in Paris.

The main steps are 1 to 4, which are
1. making the ebauche,
2. finissage, i.e. completing the movement except for the escapement
3. plantage, i.e. mounting the escapement
4. repassage: "that consists of reviewing all the functions, posing the dial and inserting in the case" (sic).

The review was not just a quality control but it consisted in perfecting (re-working) the entire movement: for this reason it was given to very expert watchmakers in case high quality was wanted.

And nothing stopped famous watchmakers to buy a complete movement and the "repass" it

Roskopf producers even made it a marketing tool by writing on the watch "repassé en second main".

Ciao

 

[Audemars]

The main steps are 1 to 4, which are
1. making the ebauche,
2. finissage, i.e. completing the movement except for the escapement
3. plantage, i.e. mounting the escapement
4. repassage: "that consists of reviewing all the functions, posing the dial and inserting in the case" (sic).

The review was not just a quality control but it consisted in perfecting (re-working) the entire movement: for this reason it was given to very expert watchmakers in case high quality was wanted.

Thank you very much.
For this ignoramus, that is a very important document which I have saved for future reference.
Thank you again.
Paul

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Thanks to all for this informative discussion! As another novice, the expertise evident on the forum is a constant source of information and encouragement to learn more.