Information about this movement would be appreciated

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by THTanner, Apr 9, 2020.

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  1. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I picked this up more out of curiosity than current need and have no idea what I have.

    I think it is German and is a single chain loop movement?

    There is also a loose piece with finger knurling that I think fits just above where the suspension spring would be. It has a verge that I have never seen before that spans very few EW teeth. I think it may use a silk thread pendulum and the loose piece controls the pendulum length?

    If anyone has a picture of the missing pendulum parts it would be appreciated. Also what the weight might be.

    thanks
    tom

    IMG_4485.jpg IMG_4486.jpg IMG_4487.jpg IMG_4488.jpg IMG_4489.jpg IMG_4490.jpg
     
  2. Isaac

    Isaac Registered User

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    Can't say I've seen this before. Very interesting that it is a single chain loop movement to drive both chime and strike - I'd lean towards it being German or French. Speaking of which, how does the weight provide power to both the trains evenly?

    I'd hazard a guess that this would be one of the more economical movements, (thinner plates, thinner wheels, small verge) that would save some materials during production.
     
  3. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I am not sure that it is single chain loop - and if it is I don't know how that works - although there are some examples here on the board. That was mentioned by the seller - but I don't think it is correct because the chain ratchets are not offset enough for the chains to miss each other. I am pretty much in the dark on this one.
     
  4. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    If it was an endless loop chain there would be only one ratchet and that would be on the strike side. Two ratchets mean two separate chains and weights. The suspension is a silk thread suspension and the knurled piece is for timing the clock. The thread forms an loop for the pendulum to hang from and then goes through the hole in the arbor with the knurled knob. By turning the knob you change the length of the silk loop.

    Uhralt
     
  5. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    It has a true tic-tac escapement and a countwheel strike. Is it 30 hour or 8 day and how is it wound up?
     
  6. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Thanks - that is what I had assumed - nice to have confirmation.

    There seems to be something missing on the arbor where it goes through the plate. I think it is just a collet of some sort with a spring washer to keep the arbor from turning - held in place with a pin through the hole in the small part of the arbor? I can see a slight wear spot on the bracket that holds the thread where I think it rides. I suppose there might be a hole in the case to give additional support. Seems pretty loose but perhaps a spring washer on either side of the plate with a decent compression from the collet and pin? Does the length of the silk thread loop matter much? The back plate has a 20 stamped into which I assume is 20 cm pendulum length, but just guessing there.
     
  7. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I think you are right, there should be something that provides friction and keeps the arbor in place. In my clock with silk suspension there is a slightly domed washer held with a pin to provide friction. The silk loop is about 1 cm long.

    Uhralt
     
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  8. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I am assuming 30 hour - depending on how much chain is used - but the great wheel drives the center (T2) which drives T3 which drives the EW - so I figure a typical wall mount or sensible case would give 30 hours, but the wheels are pretty big so I am not sure.
     
  9. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    There are marks indicating a washer on both sides of the plate, so I guess if they were of proper size and loading it would be stable while resting on the bridge ?? not sure what the Z shaped piece that holds the thread is called.
     
  10. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Is there a picture of yours on the board including the thread mount and the pendulum?
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    There might have been a collet and a domed washer, or a flat spring to provide stability and friction. Is there no evidence on the arbor, like a shadow?

    Do you mean the piece the silk loop hangs from? That would be the suspension bridge, I think.

    Uhralt
     
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  12. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    The arbor is pretty rusty but shows some sign of washers and there are marks on both sides of the plate. I will experiment with some washers and a pin and see how stable I can make it.

    Have you ever seen a verge like that and what kind of escapement would this be? It spans only three teeth - the entry - one in between - and the exit.
     
  13. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I can't find my clock's posting right now but here is an older post that shows a scheme of a silk suspension that might be helpful.

    Uhralt

    Pendulum for French, Silk String Suspension?
     
  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    As jmclaugh stated, this is called a tic tac escapement and comes usually with a short pendulum.
    Uhralt
     
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  15. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Close up of the verge

    IMG_4494.jpg
     
  16. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Thanks - I will search a bit regarding this - :)
     
  17. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    It looks like a French movement and if so maybe the 20 on the plate could be 20 French inches?
     
  18. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    One rotation of the great wheel equates to 12 hours, and about 3 inches of chain, so it looks like it would run for 8 days on about 50 inches of chain.

    It is set up for a bell on top of the movement with a 60 degree rotation side hammer and with a single strike on the 1/2 plus the hour strikes.

    I will get a full tooth and leaf count tomorrow and see what the beats per hour are. If the tic-tac escapement usually is for a short pendulum I wonder what this came out of?
     
  19. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    That "20" puzzled me since it was kind of scripted. Turns out to be imperfections in the casting of which there are several on the plates.
     
  20. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    EW 26 x 6
    T3 66 x 6
    C 72 x 8
    G 92

    So one turn of the great wheel is 11 1/2 hours
    Beats per hour = 6864
    PL = 10.78 inches

    So far I have not seen a weight driven, tic-tac escapement with silk thread suspension anywhere online.
    I was referred to a link "1stdibs" that showed a French carved oak Saint Nicholas GF clock from Normandy with a time and strike movement with weights on ropes and a hidden and short pendulum, but a full picture of the movement was not available. The above clock was from Louis XV era in about 1870s. If this movement were in such a case it would run for 8 - 9 days.

    The dial for this movement is mounted to the front plate with four pinned posts and the movement is mounted to a seat board with finger screws much like a modern GF clock that screw into the bottom two movement posts.

    I am wondering if anyone can tell from the ratchets if this likely used regular chain, flat chain or rope? If it was rope, what sort of rope would be best?

    after all these years the only bushing is a plug bushing on one plate for the fan and none seem needed now - so I don't think this was used very much - but it is old thick brass and most of the arbors are blued steel
     
  21. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Others would know better, however looking at the ratched wheel it looks like rope, if not those would be some long links.
     
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  22. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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  23. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    #23 THTanner, Apr 11, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
    Thanks for the confirmation :). More examples welcome. What sort of rope did they use back then - hemp?

    Except for two hammers instead of one the front plate looks the same - thanks so much
     
  24. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    After a better cleaning a couple more tiny bushings are visible but they all seem acceptable.

    Two more puzzles - one is this odd shaped hole in the minute cannon? It seems not to be associated with anything in the motion works and comes really close to the teeth. It is more oblong than shows in the picture and has no sign of wear inside the hole or on its rim.

    The other is that the fan and S4 arbors are 32.8mm and all the rest are 35.2mm. To accommodate the shorter arbors the pivot holes have been dimpled and stand quite proud on the inside of both plates. Plenty of scratches show the difficulty in dealing with non-flush pivot holes. It would be strange to make it this way, so perhaps these two have been cut down instead of re-pivoted at some point? Or is this somehow a design feature? At first I thought it might allow separating the plates just a bit to time the strike side and replace the fan, but the pivots are all the same length so S3 comes loose along with S4 and the fan.

    IMG_4510.jpg IMG_4511.jpg IMG_4514.jpg
     
  25. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The hole might be there to access or observe something that is behind the wheel. A picture of the front of the movement with the wheel in place might be helpful. The shorter arbors are probably result of a previous repair. Either, as you suspect, a non-traditional method of re-pivoting, or, wheels from a similar but different movement have been used to replace damaged ones.

    The proud standing bushings might make re-assembly difficult. It would help to place that plate on the bottom for re-assembly.

    Uhralt
     
  26. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    It would be nice to isolate a plate - but both plates have the bulges for the same two pieces. Luckily the plates are quite large - 4 x 5 1/2 inches - and have very few parts so seeing the pivot holes and positioning with my fingers is not too hard. But I am sure I will add a few more scratches. And with hardened pivots that is always spooky. I suspect the tiny hardened pivots are the root cause of the shortened arbors.

    When I reassemble later today I will get some close ups of the motion works all clean and perhaps the large hole will give a clue then. The only thing I have come up with is a strange way to hold that still while turning something else. There is nothing of note under it as it rotates. The hour hand on these is mounted on a long, split sleeve, with the hand itself peened to a groove on the front. Perhaps the hole is to assist in setting the hour hand correctly?

    In this dim photo you can see the hole over the lever that activates the strike.

    IMG_4486.jpg
     
  27. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Here are a couple photos of the motion works. I will try a video perhaps but the hole does not pass over anything except the strike lever.

    465505BE-2D2A-417D-A9C0-4D297CAE4AE4.jpeg 65C1133F-5A7D-4B58-A79E-4377921EADD2.jpeg
     
  28. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Okay I will have a go at the hole, the short arbours are replacements I would say, however the size of the bushes are rather large, maybe the repairer only had 3 and thought "hey I can cut one out of the minute cannon" well a long shot however I can see on other reason as nothing could be attached to that hole and the motion works stiff function. :?|
     
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  29. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    I was wondering about that answer as well. I am not sure the dimples are bushed. It looks more like just pounded down a bit and broached but perhaps there is a bushing in there. The fan bushing looks like a hollow wire job in the photo below. The other bushings that i found are tiny and so well done I didn’t see them till after a good scrubbing. So clearly some great work and some not so great.

    6F18CEB1-EF9F-4373-A746-84CFD3BD02F1.jpeg
     
  30. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Interesting idea, but wouldn't it be much easier to cut a round bushing from a brass rod rather than from a plate? I'm wondering how the position of the hole is related to the square for holding the minute hand? Could the hole be there to counter-balance the hand? Weird mystery.

    Uhralt
     
  31. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    That is a thought, but if you look at the back in the photo a few up you will see that the hole is not half way between the two pins and is not really aligned with the square. Since the fan and S4 are possibly from another clock this could also be a transplant. But I will certainly see if the minute hand can be placed over the hole to counterweight a bit.

    It all went back together easily and S4 and the fan are the last to drop and being right on the edge it is really easy to see the pivot hole and position the pivot without any scratching. Whoever did this work, and for whatever reason, did the mechanics really well, even though it is rather funky.
     
  32. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    I think the S4 and Fly would have been done by a Blacksmith or the like as if it was a clock repairer it would have just been bushed past the inside of the plates to take up the short arbours or the broken pivots would have been repaired. Do you have a case and a dial for the movement.
     
  33. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    No case, dial, hands, weights or seat board. Just bought the movement out of curiosity to figure out what it was. My first, tic-tac, silk thread and rope clock. When I bought it I didn't know it was any of those I just knew it was something I had never seen before. The seller said it was German, but knew nothing else about it. So it is just a learning experience for me.

    If anyone has a need for this movement let me know. Other than clean it up I have not made any changes. The great wheel pivots both need some attention on one end due to minor circular grooves and the verge will need the grooves removed as well. But it all works with very little finger pressure on the ratchets. I have some 4mm rope coming, some silk thread and a proper pendulum, and have weights that should be pretty close to put it on a test stand and see how it settles in.
     

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