Info on Herschede 2 weight, 9 tube needed

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Jeff Salmon, May 17, 2016.

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  1. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    Apr 11, 2002
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    A potential client has contacted me regarding a Herschede 2 weight, 9 tube GF, circa 1925. This is the model with the weird chiming set up. The clock has been recently repaired, about a year ago, but it still stops after several hours. A limited inspection has shown that there is no friction tension on the shaft for the chime (it slips; and the fan assy. has been soldered for some reason). This causes the tempo of the chime to be very fast. There are other problems as well. I seem to remember an article on this movement many years ago, but can't seem to find out much info. Conover's book does not cover it. Before I get into it, I'd like some more pictures and info.
     
  2. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    I've not worked on them but I've seen pictures. The shifting mechanism
    for the drum, to chime and strike, is suppose to be tricky to setup.
    Worn parts would be difficult to make.
    If the lever on the front doesn't stop the train, it can damage the lever and drum.
    Good luck
    Tinker Dwight
     
  3. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    I don't have to make any parts. I just hammer up the old ones into submission. They eventually give up and decide to work.
     
  4. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    No one has any info on these....? Must be very rare.
     
  5. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Feb 22, 2010
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    Steven Conover does mention these movements in his Herschede manual. He has the following to say:
    "There was a less common 9-tube, two-weight movement, shown in Figure 60. The tubes are hung in an offset pattern that maintains the same width as a 5-tube set. The hammer assembly shifts from side to side as Westminster, Whittington, or silent operation is selected."
    In essence, it looks pretty much the same as the 5-tube, two-weight movement.
     
  6. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    Apr 11, 2002
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    Bruce:

    Thanks for the reply. The Conover book I have does not have anything about the movement. It discusses the typical 5 tube and the 9 tube. While I don't have any pics of this movement yet, it does not have staggered tubes. I'll have to check out Conover's other books. I really seem to recall an article about these many years ago, but it may have been in Horological Times. I don't have an index for them, and the AWCI does not have the index on line. The movement I am referring to has a cylinder that shifts over to count the hours.
     
  7. Bohemian Bill

    Bohemian Bill Registered User
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    Nov 5, 2010
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    . Hi Jeff...You are correct that Conover does not cover that particular model. I have a 1923 5 tube Herchedes older mode that the chime cylinder shifts that I bought from an auction. One of the older clock guys there warn me not to buy it due to that 5 tube models are trouble to repair but I wanted a tubular chime grandfather clock. What I remember Conover book mention of the different models but does not go into any details of how our older model work, repair or troubleshooting. I am assuming that he has not came across these older models. It took me a year to repair mine bringing my movement to different clock repair experts I knew for their opinion. I had mine on the stand for over a year and finally one Saturday morning I saw what was going on using a strong pin light to see the pin & lever action and slowing it down by controlling the fly . It been about four or five years ago, for what I remember, inside between the plate there is a chime warning wheel with a pin that lifts a lever to start/stop the chime. The chime lever on front been screwed with in the past and had too much play and was not lifting correctly and consistently. I also had to replace/ rebuild that pin on that chime wheel and rebush the lever that fits on front of movement. Also prior to that I had to replace all four pins on the quarter strike small wheel on the front that is driven from the minute wheel. That four pin wheel (design) is weak in my opinion because the pins get loose or bend over time. By looking closely my movement been jack with or abused over the past years by shade tree repairmen by the globs of solder I found and homemade items I had to replace. There was one lever on front I saw looked homemade and I had to make several before I got it right to work consistently. I looked over a year for another movement that looked like mine on Ebay and never saw one. These older 5 tube and your 9 tube design may be rarer for a reason..the poor design that Herchedes corrected later. Since then I repaired several 1970s vintage, 9 tube, Herchedes that was easy straight forward repairs. I hope you can fix yours..Bill
     
  8. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Conover does go into 2-weight movements, both the 5 and 9 tubes. Although he doesn't go into the same amount of detail that he does with the more common movements they are covered. At least they are in the manual I purchased from him which was about 4-5 years ago. He does state that there is a staggered arrangement so if you are not seeing that in your movement, there must be different versions of this movement. Conover's book may help but you will probably have to study and "reverse engineer" the movement you're facing. Please post photos and discoveries on the Message Board. I'm sure many here will be interested in what you find and how you handle it. Good luck
     
  9. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    Thanks for the info. On the clock in question...a 'famous' clock repairer in Hollywood, wrote on the back of the dial that he 'repaired' the chime cylinder. For some years it did work. My clients bought it at an auction, several years after this repair. There is soft solder on the fan assembly, but the blades still are adjustable. However, there is not enough friction between this fan assembly and the arbor, so the clock chimes at different speeds. I haven't inspected the clock movement out of the case yet. I'll post pictures when I got back to the client's house.
     
  10. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Feb 22, 2010
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    Yikes! :(:screwball: I look forward to your posts Jeff. Thanks!
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    There are a few post on the message board mentioning and talking
    about the two weight tube chime clocks. Some even showed
    some detail for the shift for the strike.
    To my knowledge, even though Conover didn't mention the strike,
    all of these Herschede two weight clocks shifted the drum for the
    strike.
    That shifting part should be treated with care. It seems they are
    often damaged. I've not seen one in person.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Does the the movement look like this ? (This is a 5 tube)


    ER Sewer (1).jpg ER Sewer (2).jpg ER Sewer (3).jpg ER Sewer (4).jpg ER Sewer (5).jpg ER Sewer (6).jpg
     
  13. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    Those are the pictures of the movement that is the same as the one in question. The one I am discussing is the 9 tube movement. One of the things that is causing the clock to stop is that the vertical lever (2nd and 3rd picture) that extends above the front plate, runs into a pin on the cylinder, and after several hours of chiming properly, jams the chime train, which eventually jams the time train. There may be other faults, in addition to the fan assembly not having enough friction on it's arbor. I may get to visit the clock this week end.
     
  14. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I believe that is the normal shutoff.
    During warning, it should release.
    If I'm correct.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  15. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    If the chime pin drum does not slide over to the left all the way or not fast enough one of the pins will hit a hammer tail and stop the sliding and the next chime will not chime right and stop the clock.
    I used some of this grease
    P.T.F.E.jpg on the drum arbors and it lasted 2 years
    You cant put too much pressure on the return spring on the right. but make sure it is enough pressure.
    Good luck
     
  16. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    The pin should be moving up as the drum turns and slide the lever to the left and unlock the stop lever so it will fall in the way of the lock pin on the warning wheel, and stop the chime sequence.
    (I think that is who you would say it.)
     
  17. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    During my initial exam at the client's home, with the clock stopped for some reason, I did notice that the vertical lever that interacts with a pin on the drum, actually gets blocked by said pin, jamming the chime. I fiddled with it, then ran it through several chime cycles and I could not get it to jam again. After this 'fix' I adjusted the fan blades and got the chime to be slower. However, the speed of the chime sequence varied considerably. It was then that I noticed that there was no friction between the fan assembly and the arbor. Perhaps, because the chime cylinder runs way too fast, the lever and the pin have issues. One problem I noticed with the speed is that the hammers were being lifted so quickly that the hammer heads were 'bouncing' on their springs, causing a 'double hit' on some of the tubes. When playing the first and second quarter, this was not noticeable. But when playing the longer 3rd and 4th quarter the cylinder was speeding up. This may be where the problem lies. I have to remove the movement and set it up on my test stand to watch the problem without having the case in the way.
     
  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It is not usually possible to tighten the
    fan without removing it and taking it apart.
    A fast running chime could miss stopping.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. tickntock1

    tickntock1 Registered User
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    There is an excellent article on this movement in the Bulletin from October 1996. It's in volume 38, issue 304, page 634. I have the 5 tube model that looks very, very similar to the 12 tube. I've had mine for about 7 or 8 years and it has always run and struck reliably.
    Jim
     
  20. Jeff Salmon

    Jeff Salmon Registered User
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    Thanks for that Bulletin article lead. I knew that I had seen an article on this movement somewhere. Can't remember if it was the 5 tube or the 9 tube, but the mechanism and operation/setup should be the same.
     
  21. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    It's good to know that article is available. :thumb:
    Since it goes into so much detail, I've printed it out and will keep it with my Conover Book.
    Still, the 9-tube must be a relatively rare find and it will be interesting to know how it differs from the 5 (other than the obvious).
     

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