Info on Hayden Wheeler 17 J Pendant Sets

DeweyC

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I recently acquired a HWW Maiden Lane 17 J because I figured I should have one. I had the perfect case for it and a great set of hands.'

I know next nothing about these (which is why I bought it). It is in the 275000 range which is not recognized by the NAWCC database but is by Henry Burgell's.

Earhardt and Meggers (PWs Beginning to End) identify 8 specific models. Does anyone know what this refers to?

Halligan indicates that all HWWs with a "1" or "2" prefix were 21 jewel. Yet this is 17. however, he does allow that his research on this line is not definitive.

Are there resources that would help me learn? Why did HWW use such an odd S/N system?
 

musicguy

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....and where are the photos. :)



Rob
 

DeweyC

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I recently acquired a HWW Maiden Lane 17 J because I figured I should have one. I had the perfect case for it and a great set of hands.'

I know next nothing about these (which is why I bought it). It is in the 275000 range which is not recognized by the NAWCC database but is by Henry Burgell's.

Earhardt and Meggers (PWs Beginning to End) identify 8 specific models. Does anyone know what this refers to?

Halligan indicates that all HWWs with a "1" or "2" prefix were 21 jewel. Yet this is 17. however, he does allow that his research on this line is not definitive.

Are there resources that would help me learn? Why did HWW use such an odd S/N system?
I did just find the Lasser articles which show that 17 j PS were included in the S/N range with the 2 prefix.
 

Jim Haney

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Dewey,
Howard Lasser is the expert in Hayden W. Wheeler's. Below are 2 Images of the different models. I am sorry but you will have to put them together because they are on 2 pages in his book.

The first runs( 75xxx, 76xxx) were the terrible detent stems and the other runs 175xxx and 275xx are regular Lever or pendant set movements.

They made even serial numbers Open Face and odd numbers Hunting and had 3 different DMK patterns, the most common the wavy lines across the movements.

When Hamilton started off they got the Wheeler account and they were the only Company Hamilton Named a grade after.

Wheeler was a big time Jeweler/retailer/distributor and had a big store on Jewelers row in NY called Maiden Lane

DSCN9313.JPG DSCN9314.JPG
 

DeweyC

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Dewey,
Howard Lasser is the expert in Hayden W. Wheeler's. Below are 2 Images of the different models. I am sorry but you will have to put them together because they are on 2 pages in his book.

The first runs( 75xxx, 76xxx) were the terrible detent stems and the other runs 175xxx and 275xx are regular Lever or pendant set movements.

They made even serial numbers Open Face and odd numbers Hunting and had 3 different DMK patterns, the most common the wavy lines across the movements.

When Hamilton started off they got the Wheeler account and they were the only Company Hamilton Named a grade after.

Wheeler was a big time Jeweler/retailer/distributor and had a big store on Jewelers row in NY called Maiden Lane

View attachment 721644 View attachment 721645
Thanks much Jim. Will anyone believe me if I say this 2 prefix S/N 17 J is a Waltham positive detent? I will send upload pics by morning. It may be a couple days before I have time check all numbers. Interesting.
 

DeweyC

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....and where are the photos. :)



Rob
Dewey,
Howard Lasser is the expert in Hayden W. Wheeler's. Below are 2 Images of the different models. I am sorry but you will have to put them together because they are on 2 pages in his book.

The first runs( 75xxx, 76xxx) were the terrible detent stems and the other runs 175xxx and 275xx are regular Lever or pendant set movements.

They made even serial numbers Open Face and odd numbers Hunting and had 3 different DMK patterns, the most common the wavy lines across the movements.

When Hamilton started off they got the Wheeler account and they were the only Company Hamilton Named a grade after.

Wheeler was a big time Jeweler/retailer/distributor and had a big store on Jewelers row in NY called Maiden Lane

View attachment 721644 View attachment 721645
I just realized there is no urgent need to check numbers. The S/N is on the 1/2 plate. (275024) You can see the screw for the detent bolt just beneath the stem. In 17s case but it looks too good.
IMG_1184.JPG

IMG_1182.JPG

IMG_1181.JPG

IMG_1183.JPG
 

DeweyC

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Nice watch Dewey. It's nice to get one of these earlier versions with a correct dial in great shape.
Thanks John. I am still confused by the S/N and also the models as designated by Earhardt and Meggers.

Is it possible this was produced in an earlier run and renumbered to fill an order at the later date? That would explain the information about the positive set Jim provided from Lasser.

Seems like there is "always sumpin".
 

John Cote

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Dewey,

I believe Hamilton had two, slightly different positive setting setups. I can tell from the detent screw near the stem of your example, that it is the refined, second version and not the troublesome first version. I think your serial number fits into the making of this second version.

The story I have heard about these HWW watches is that HW was contractually obliged to order a minimum run quantity at a time. They were not obliged to pay for them all at once but to order all of them within a certain amount of time. Many times they could not sell the whole run on time and Hamilton would then sell the remaining watches with PL names.

In a scheme like this I think there will be all kinds of anomalies.
 

Jim Haney

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I believe Hamilton had two, slightly different positive setting setups. I can tell from the detent screw near the stem of your example, that it is the refined, second version and not the troublesome first version. I think your serial number fits into the making of this second version.
John,
Having collected these for many years and working with Dr. Lasser on research for them, I am not familiar with any second type of detent system?

The Ledgers show Dewey's watch was ordered by a Charles F. Miller, Lancaster, Pa. went to finishing 2-19-1904 and finished on 6-23-1904 along with 50 other watches.

I will ask Howard Lasser if he knows anything about this.
 

musicguy

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DeweyC

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John,
Having collected these for many years and working with Dr. Lasser on research for them, I am not familiar with any second type of detent system?

The Ledgers show Dewey's watch was ordered by a Charles F. Miller, Lancaster, Pa. went to finishing 2-19-1904 and finished on 6-23-1904 along with 50 other watches.

I will ask Howard Lasser if he knows anything about this.
THANKS Jim. How did you get the S/N to come up in the ledger? (never mind on ledger. Just got it. Did not work the other day; gremlins)
 
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John Cote

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John,
Having collected these for many years and working with Dr. Lasser on research for them, I am not familiar with any second type of detent system?
I am not talking about anything different from the two types of Hamilton detent stem systems. The early and bad one has a (blued) cap screw over the detent screw. The second version simply has an uncapped detent screw like Dewey's. They aren't a whole lot different internally. They are just enough different that the second version is much less of a pain in the ass. I know you have taken both types apart in your life in watches.
 

DeweyC

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I am not talking about anything different from the two types of Hamilton detent stem systems. The early and bad one has a (blued) cap screw over the detent screw. The second version simply has an uncapped detent screw like Dewey's. They aren't a whole lot different internally. They are just enough different that the second version is much less of a pain in the ass. I know you have taken both types apart in your life in watches.
Actually John, IIRC Jim and I have documented a couple different variations of the bolt system. In fact, I never knew there was a cap screw on some. I just figured a watchmaker screwed up the slot and shortened the bolt screw.

Ya larned me sumpin! THANKS!
 

Jim Haney

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John,
Yes the VERY early detent systems did Have a locking screw that had a arc cut into it to lock the detent screw, however the detent was the same they just did away with the locking screw.

This was eliminated by serial number 57xxx long before the 1st runs of HWW 75xxx.

Detent stem Lever.jpg
 

Jim Haney

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Jim,

It looks like an 75,XXX early run. It is possible and most likely the early run and was numbered 275,024. Hamilton was known to do this. Halligan is a good guide but there are some inaccuracies. The first 950 and 951 were converted 960 and 961. I imagine Hamilton tried the configuration out and it worked.

Fondest regards, Howard

Dewey,

Did you see the numbers on any plates during service?
 
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DeweyC

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John,
Yes the VERY early detent systems did Have a locking screw that had a arc cut into it to lock the detent screw, however the detent was the same they just did away with the locking screw.

This was eliminated by serial number 57xxx long before the 1st runs of HWW 75xxx.

View attachment 721820
Jim,

I was also hunting down our pics. Here is one that may help:


Pos Lock screw.JPG




Here is another of the setup:

Ham Positive set.JPG



Finally, here is one I think John was talking about (maybe not) missing cap screw?? (I though the screw was simply shortned to make a new slot)

Short Screw.JPG

Short Screw.JPG
 

John Cote

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John,
Yes the VERY early detent systems did Have a locking screw that had a arc cut into it to lock the detent screw, however the detent was the same they just did away with the locking screw.

This was eliminated by serial number 57xxx long before the 1st runs of HWW 75xxx.
The newer (no locking screw) detents always seemed easier to make work to me. Maybe it was just chance.
 

Jim Haney

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John,
According to Dewey' 2nd picture, I stand corrected, it does have a different detent from what I posted in #16 :emoji_confounded: :confused::eek:
 
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DeweyC

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Dewey,

Did you see the numbers on any plates during service?
Jim,

There are two suspicious markings; along with no number in the barrel. As you can see in the first photo, all are marked with same S/N. The second photo shows what appears to be a restrike on the pallet bridge.

The fact that the leading two on the other plates is not properly registered is not diagnostic to me.

The third photo shows the S/N on the balance wheel. Mary and I agree the leading 2 appears to have been done with a different hand compared to the 2 in the second to last digit.

IMG_1189.JPG

IMG_1190.JPG

_DSC7513.JPG
 

Jim Haney

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According to Dr Lasser this movement is a regular production model that Hamilton made up for a Lancaster Jeweler, most likely a special order at a discount, as Hamilton often did.

So any movement in this run should look like yours 275018-275078, except for the 5 marked SPECIAL.

Thanks for going the extra step to verify the plate marking.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jim,

According to the Hamilton files, there were 30 movements made in this style and additional five are marked special. These were sold to Charles F. Miller, Lancaster, PA.

The serial numbers run from 275,018 to 275,078. 275,050, 275,052, 275,054, 275,070, and 275,072 are marked special. They were produced between February 19, 1904 and September 6, 1904.

The subject movement was produced on February 19, 1904 and finished as well as sold on June 23, 1904.

For your information, there were no hunting case movements in the 275,XXX series and 275,002 through 275,200 were all 17 jewel movements.

Fondest regards, Howard
 

DeweyC

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The newer (no locking screw) detents always seemed easier to make work to me. Maybe it was just chance.
John,
According to Dewey' 2nd picture, I stand corrected, it does have a different detent from what I posted in #16 :emoji_confounded: :confused::eek:
Ok. Here is what I documented.

Marked HWW Maiden Lane
Marked Adjusted
Marked 17 J
Steek EW with oil retention groove
DR Poised Pallet
Sapphire radiused pallet jewels
Gold settings
Gold Train
Gold Balance screws
DS Arabic dial with no markings
Beveled Steel work (regulator and regulator spring)

Not your grandfather's 974! Many of these features were reserved for the 970.

Here it is in all its glory:

HWW.JPG
 
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DeweyC

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According to Dr Lasser this movement is a regular production model that Hamilton made up for a Lancaster Jeweler, most likely a special order at a discount, as Hamilton often did.

So any movement in this run should look like yours 275018-275078, except for the 5 marked SPECIAL.

Thanks for going the extra step to verify the plate marking.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jim,

According to the Hamilton files, there were 30 movements made in this style and additional five are marked special. These were sold to Charles F. Miller, Lancaster, PA.

The serial numbers run from 275,018 to 275,078. 275,050, 275,052, 275,054, 275,070, and 275,072 are marked special. They were produced between February 19, 1904 and September 6, 1904.

The subject movement was produced on February 19, 1904 and finished as well as sold on June 23, 1904.

For your information, there were no hunting case movements in the 275,XXX series and 275,002 through 275,200 were all 17 jewel movements.

Fondest regards, Howard
Thanks Jim.
 

Jerry Treiman

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Here is a Hayden W. Wheeler ad from the March 1903 issue of The Keystone. The top half introduces the new E.Howard Watch Co. bridge movement (made for Howard by Waltham) for which they are agents, and the bottom half of the ad features the subject movement of this thread.
1903_03_Keystone_p296.jpg
 

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