Indian Clock quits intermittently

[Dave T]

Trying to diagnose this Indian made clock. It shows very little wear, all pivots have proper endplay, bushings all appear to be very good.
It will run for 2 or 3 days and then stops.
I don't want to tear it down until I can determine the issue. I suspect the mainspring. It looks good, but does not maintain a straight edge through the coils of the wind. And the outside loop of the spring has no clearance at the top of the drive gear. I've seen this in other clocks with no issue, but this is the only thing that looks suspicious to me. I've tried moving the loop end on the shaft and it makes no difference.
Might be on the wrong trail, but not sure what else to look for.

Here's some pictures, with the spring about half or two thirds wound.

 

[bruce linde]

how about a video of the escapement in action? that might help assess whether it's a power problem.

another thing you could try would be letting down the spring and then giving it a third of the normal amount of winds... and seeing how long it runs.

 

[Dave T]

Thanks Bruce, When I got it it was fully wound, and I let it down a little and it started running.
I'm pretty sure it's a power issue. If I give the 2nd wheel a little help it runs fine.
I will see if I can get a respectable video to post.
This clock has a dish plate shaped washer that sits between the gear and the spring and it's about two thirds the size of the gear. When fully wound the spring will fit inside of this washer but when it expands it tends to lean off to one side outside that washer. I don't think this is an issue but doesn't look proper.

 

[Willie X]

The springs are almost run down. So, wind er up and see what happens.

The Indians make crappy springs but that's not going to be your 'no run' problem.

Unless you are 'on a mission' to make this clock run, it would be best to toss it and start with a better movement.

You can probably get it to run but you will never have a dependable clock that keeps time. They can't help it, they're made that way (poor materials and poor design) sorry, Willie X

 

[Dave T]

I'm in complete agreement with you Willie. This clock belongs to a friend who keeps bringing me stuff he bought on auction. And I hate to tell him no.
But in this case, I think that's a good choice.
I'll give it a full wind and see what happens. Otherwise, I'm about done with it.

 

[shutterbug]

I notice two things. First, the spring has been coned. While that could cause some issues, I don't think that's it. Second, to me, the spring looks too long, like they were trying to stretch the run time. As it unwinds, it hits the post that is designed to send it outside the movement, but that does not seem to be happening. Because of that, the spring is likely running into the second wheel pinion or arbor and stopping the clock. Check that and see if that's what's going on.
Another possibility is that the spring is encountering the strike hammer. And lastly, the crutch is binding on the pendulum hanger at the front. It needs to be hitting in the center with just a little wiggle room so it can move up and down as needed while it's moving back and forth.

 

[Willie X]

It should run OK, unless you have a lot of wear. They just don't run very long and don't keep time. The click mechanism also gives a lot of trouble, bad click springs, etc. Good luck, Willie X

 

[Dave T]

I notice two things. First, the spring has been coned. While that could cause some issues, I don't think that's it. Second, to me, the spring looks too long, like they were trying to stretch the run time. As it unwinds, it hits the post that is designed to send it outside the movement, but that does not seem to be happening. Because of that, the spring is likely running into the second wheel pinion or arbor and stopping the clock. Check that and see if that's what's going on.
Another possibility is that the spring is encountering the strike hammer. And lastly, the crutch is binding on the pendulum hanger at the front. It needs to be hitting in the center with just a little wiggle room so it can move up and down as needed while it's moving back and forth.

Couldn't prove it, but the spring looks to be original to me, I don't see any evidence of this clock ever having been worked on. The spring does have stops, and even at full wind the outside coil touches the inner stop, (closest to the strike lever). The other stop is at the top of the spring preventing it to hit the second wheel pinion. And at full wind it has plenty of clearance.
I don't see it interfering with either the second wheel or the strike arbor.
I've checked the crutch and it had too much clearance on the pendulum hanger. I've adjusted it.
I have it fully wound now and it's running fine.
Think I'll return it this way and tell the owner to wind it frequently. I'm thinking it will run okay from full wind to half wind. I'll watch it a few days and see if that's true.

 

[wow]

Drill a small hole in the post that the loop end of the spring is on (like some old American movements) and insert a piece of wire through the hole and bend the ends of the wire. That will keep the spring running straight.

 

[Dave T]

Drill a small hole in the post that the loop end of the spring is on (like some old American movements) and insert a piece of wire through the hole and bend the ends of the wire. That will keep the spring running straight.

I hear what you're saying but I can't picture it. The loop itself will actually stay wherever I put it on the post. So, if you're thinking that the loop moves or migrates on the post it doesn't. At least I don't think so. I haven't had it long enough to be absolute.

 

[R. Croswell]

The big question (that I can't answer) is do you give up and disappoint a friend, or spend a lot of time fixing something that's hardly worth the time it will take to fix it. Me, I wouldn't want to send it back without a valid reason why I can't/won't fix it.

There is no way this clock will run with the pendulum leader in contact with the end of the loop in the crutch as shown here. The leader must be centered in the loop or it will scrub up and down against the end of the loop and waste a huge amount of power. Fix that first, then if it still doesn't run follow a systematic process of elimination to locate the power loss.

I doubt that the springs are the problem.

RC



Check this as well:

 

[Dave T]

The big question (that I can't answer) is do you give up and disappoint a friend, or spend a lot of time fixing something that's hardly worth the time it will take to fix it. Me, I wouldn't want to send it back without a valid reason why I can't/won't fix it.

There is no way this clock will run with the pendulum leader in contact with the end of the loop in the crutch as shown here. The leader must be centered in the loop or it will scrub up and down against the end of the loop and waste a huge amount of power. Fix that first, then if it still doesn't run follow a systematic process of elimination to locate the power loss.

I doubt that the springs are the problem.

RC

View attachment 717323

Check this as well:
View attachment 717326

Thanks RC, Yes, my first concern is what to tell the friend. But he knows the caliber of the clock and doesn't have much invested. And there is no family connection to it or sentimental value.
The second concern for me is that I can learn from it and improve my ability to diagnose and correct it.
I was concentrating mostly on the mainspring, but I knew about the bob and didn't think that would have any affect on the problem. I have fixed that and also worked on the leader and the suspension rod position. Initially the loop in the leader was way too wide and I could see the suspension rod gap on each swing.
I have a video now that might show the current status, if you all care to look. I wish it was of better quality.

 

[shutterbug]

The crutch should be parallel to the floor. I'd straighten that up. Otherwise, you seem to be getting a fair amount of recoil. I think it might stay running.

 

[Dave T]

Here's a couple of pictures of it now.

 

[Dave T]

The crutch should be parallel to the floor. I'd straighten that up. Otherwise, you seem to be getting a fair amount of recoil. I think it might stay running.

Not sure I understand all of this. Are you saying that the bottom end of the crutch rod should be parallel, as in this picture between the two red lines?

 

[shutterbug]

Yes. It will run more efficiently is it's parallel to the floor.

 

[R. Croswell]

Here's a couple of pictures of it now.

View attachment 717378

Leader looks good centered in the loop. Looks like it is running pretty well, perhaps a bit out of beat, but as Shutterbug said, "you seem to be getting a fair amount of recoil" (a good thing).

There is one more thing to be cautious about. On this clock, because of where the suspension spring is located, the pendulum and the crutch do not follow the same arc. That's why the loop at the bottom of the crutch seems to slide up and down along the leader. Ideally the loop should be level or 'flat' at rest. As it swings back and forth the angle changes. You need a very small clearance between the leader and the sides of the loop at both extremes of pendulum swing. As the loop "kicks up" it has a pinching effect on the leader. Be sure you still have a tiny bit of clearance at full swing.

Because the loop does work up and down along the leader, that portion of the leader should be polished. then add a small drop of oil.

I suspect it will run now, but if it does stop, we need to know whether you have zero power at the escape wheel, or some power but not enough. With is stopped (on its own) very gently and slowly move the crutch and see if you can find a position where neither end of the verge is in contact with the escape wheel. If that is the case, you have zero power and something is "hung up".

 

[Dave T]

Okay, now I see what we're talking about !!! Thanks guys.

 

[Dave T]

Think I'm getting there.

 

[Jrfixer]

Looks like you are very close. Here is a vid of what the clock app shows. From what I’ve learned you want the Delta under 10 for the best results.

 

[R. Croswell]

For a clock like this, if the escapement shows some recoil and hands go around for 8 days, and it keeps fairly good time, I would say that's it unless you have a lot of time on your hands for trying to make it better than it likely was when it left the factory. You could even up the drops a bit if you like, otherwise it ain't too bad.

RC

 

[Dave T]

JrFixer, Can you tell me what application you are using. I have a watch app but nothing for clocks.
Needs to be Android compatible.

 

[R. Croswell]

Here's one that that I use on an Android phone. App is called "Clock Tuner". Works OK and I think it was inexpensive.

RC

 

[Jrfixer]

The app I use is called ClockMaster for iPhone. Not sure if there is a Android version. I think it was around $40.

I tried to post this last night, but it seemed this site was down.

 

[R. Croswell]

The app I use is called ClockMaster for iPhone. Not sure if there is a Android version. I think it was around $40.

I tried to post this last night, but it seemed this site was down.

I guess inflation has hit everywhere - now $49.99 for Clock Master.

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah. In the back of my mind I think it was about 1/10th of that when I got it.

 

[Dave T]

I see one here for $29.99. Is it the same one? ClockMaster - Time Regulator APK for Android - Download Free [Latest Version + MOD] 2022 - Free Download
I downloaded the free one, but it doesn't have all the features.

 

[Dave T]

Clock report. Clock stopped yesterday, and strike side didn't have enough power to complete the strike. Clock still runs great until it stopped. And again after winding. Takes about 12 winds on both sides.
So, I took a picture before winding and one after.
Looks to me like it's got too much spring in it. The outer coils are still fairly tight?
Started it again yesterday, we'll see how many days I get out of it.

Before winding on the left and after winding on the right.

 

[R. Croswell]

I don't think you have too much spring, but your wound springs are not fully wound. Not sure about Indian clocks, but similar American clocks take about one turn per day. It ran OK for 6 days, so if you can get two more turns it should run for 8 days. A little heavy oil on the spring coils may help, but if you are getting 6 days on not a complete wind, I would not expect it to get any better without an overhaul.

RC

 

[wow]

Dave, it looks like the springs are different. One has been replaced, I think. Maybe the strike spring is weak due to inferior material?

 

[Dave T]

I just looked at those springs carefully and I don't see any difference in them. But the time spring does appear to have some coning.
I also noticed the movement/friction on the suspension rod. It slides up and down in the leader about 1/4 to 5/8". I put a little oil on it, Maybe I can 'polish' up the suspension rod. That rod is a dull grey metal of some sort. And it's probably robbing some power.
Right now I'm going to let it run the full cycle and see how many days I get out of it.

 

[R. Croswell]

I also noticed the movement/friction on the suspension rod. It slides up and down in the leader about 1/4 to 5/8". I put a little oil on it, Maybe I can 'polish' up the suspension rod. That rod is a dull grey metal of some sort. And it's probably robbing some power.

Yes, I would polish that part of the suspension rod, every little bit of power saved will help. For those who may not know, on many less expensive clocks the crutch loop slides up and down along the suspension rod because the point from which the pendulum swings is not the same as the point from which the crutch swings. "Better" clocks will suspend the pendulum from very close to the verge pivot point to eliminate this up and down motion.

RC

 

[Dave T]

Clock stopped this morning, after winding on Sunday, about 3 1/2 days. I've noticed that both time when it stops it's in warning. So right now I started it again, after striking, and it has ran for over an hour now with no issues. UPDATE: Stopped again about an hour and a half later, but not in warning.
Still on the stand, and still in beat, sounds good.

So now, I'm thinking sticky dirty springs?



I wound it fully tight this time. Takes 8 1/2 full turns on both sides. Test #3 coming up. We'll see how long it runs this time. Note, the springs are not centered against the back plate?

 

[R. Croswell]

Clock stopped this morning, after winding on Sunday, about 3 1/2 days. I've noticed that both time when it stops it's in warning.

It takes a bit of extra power from the time train to shift into warning. If the clock is about to stop at that time, it usually will stop at warning.

So right now I started it again, after striking, and it has ran for over an hour now with no issues. UPDATE: Stopped again about an hour and a half later, but not in warning. Still on the stand, and still in beat, sounds good.

if it ran for 3 1/2 days and stopped and if you restarted it without rewinding it, I would not expect it to keep running after just a restart.

So now, I'm thinking sticky dirty springs?
I wound it fully tight this time. Takes 8 1/2 full turns on both sides. Test #3 coming up. We'll see how long it runs this time. Note, the springs are not centered against the back plate?

Remember one thing, even messed up springs will usually run the clock for a while when fully wound. But I don't the problem is the springs. They probably are dirty and sticky if you didn't clean then, but the whole clock is probably due for a good cleaning. That means taking it completely apart. I would bet that you will find some worn pivots and/or pivot holes. While you are about it, polish the verge pallets. I think you have too much friction causing a power loss. By all means clean the springs and lubricate them.

RC

 

[Dave T]

Sounds like a teardown is on the agenda! I thought after I had it in beat and good overswing it was good, but reckon not.

 

[R. Croswell]

Sounds like a teardown is on the agenda! I thought after I had it in beat and good overswing it was good, but reckon not.

You have checked about all you can visually. It runs for a while which suggests that nothing is broken. Everything points to an intermittent power loss. One thing that I don’t believe you mentioned is did you apply any kind of oil or solvent, and if so, what? Yes, a tear down is in the stars.

RC

 

[Willie X]

It might run for 8 1/2 days. That's still a short run for an American style clock.
How was the rate? Willie X

 

[Dave T]

You have checked about all you can visually. It runs for a while which suggests that nothing is broken. Everything points to an intermittent power loss. One thing that I don’t believe you mentioned is did you apply any kind of oil or solvent, and if so, what? Yes, a tear down is in the stars.
RC

I did oil all the pivots, (Horolube from Timesavers) the escape wheel teeth, and the suspension rod. I have not oiled the springs.

It might run for 8 1/2 days. That's still a short run for an American style clock.
How was the rate? Willie X

I'm going to sound dumb here, but it's nothing anyone on this forum doesn't know already! I don't know what the rate is, and not sure even how to check it. I don't have anything to measure with.

 

[Willie X]

American style clocks generally require one full turn per day to operate and I was going by your wind-up number.

Your clock's "Rate" is the measure of how it's timekeeping is doing when compared to a known standard. A 'good rate' is subjective and varies greatly from one class of clock to another. Short pendulum, spring driven, low grade clocks will be at one end of the spectrum, while weight driven high grade clocks with long heavy pendulums will be at the other.

Willie X

 

[Dave T]

American style clocks generally require one full turn per day to operate and I was going by your wind-up number.

Your clock's "Rate" is the measure of how it's timekeeping is doing when compared to a known standard. A 'good rate' is subjective and varies greatly from one class of clock to another. Short pendulum, spring driven, low grade clocks will be at one end of the spectrum, while weight driven high grade clocks with long heavy pendulums will be at the other.

Willie X

Thanks Willie, I read a lot of threads on this forum, and that's the first time I knew or heard this. Good info!
So based on that, my clock should be running more than 4 days. And when it quits, the outer half of the spring is still tight. I also noticed when I wound it that the coils contracted in jerks. Which made me think it definitely needs cleaning.

 

[Swanicyouth]

Maybe I’m stating the obvious, but I’d tear it down, remove the springs, & reassemble the wheels & check if anything is binding or there is a rough spot in the train for some reason. I’d also look at lantern pinions - on a clock like this maybe one piece of wire could have fallen out

 

[Dave T]

Maybe I’m stating the obvious, but I’d tear it down, remove the springs, & reassemble the wheels & check if anything is binding or there is a rough spot in the train for some reason. I’d also look at lantern pinions - on a clock like this maybe one piece of wire could have fallen out

Yes, that's exactly what I intend to do. I'm just waiting for the clock to go through one more wind cycle. I'm not sure I've ever had it wound completely tight until this last time.

 

[R. Croswell]

I did oil all the pivots, (Horolube from Timesavers) the escape wheel teeth, and the suspension rod. I have not oiled the springs.

And when it quits, the outer half of the spring is still tight. I also noticed when I wound it that the coils contracted in jerks. Which made me think it definitely needs cleaning.

Adding a solvent or oil to a clock that won't keep running and hasn't been cleaned often produces only a very short-term result. You end up with a mixture of old stiff oil, new oil, and dirt. I' afraid there is no way to get around disassembling and cleaning this clock movement. Jerking as the spring unwinds is often a sign that the springs need to be cleaned and lubricated. That usually means stretching put the spring and using steel wool to make it bright and smooth. You may still experience some shuffling of the coils in a clock like this where the outward expansion of the spring is restrained by stops and the natural even expansion of the spring is prevented.

I'm going to sound dumb here, but it's nothing anyone on this forum doesn't know already! I don't know what the rate is, and not sure even how to check it. I don't have anything to measure with.

Simply put the rate is how many times the clock has to tick over a period of time in order to keep time. This is usually expressed as BPH (beats per hour). Checking the rate is one thing and determining what it is supposed to be is something different. In most cases simply observing if the clock runs too fast or too slow over a week run is sufficient. The rates for hundreds of clocks are published in, The Clockmaker's Beat Book by Jeff Hamilton, and is available on eBay and other sources, but I'm not sure if this movement is included. It is pretty easy to calculate the "rate" once the movement is apart and you can count the teeth on the wheels and pinions in the time train between the center wheel and the escape wheel. for a clock like this the formula is:

beat = 2 x ((W3 x W4 x W5 x W6)/(P3 x P4 x P5))

W3 is the number of teeth on the 3rd. wheel
W4 is the number of teeth on the 4th. wheel
W5 is the number of teeth on the escape wheel
W6 is the number of teeth on the center wheel
P3 is the number of teeth on the 3rd. pinion
P4 is the number of teeth on the 4th. pinion
P5 is the number of teeth on the escape wheel pinion

In a clock like this the 1st. and 2nd. wheels are before the center so they are not included in the calculation. Some clock may have more or less wheels or pinions, simply add W7, P7...... and so no to the formula. Posts #20 to #27 describe inexpensive tools to measure the beat. I use the Microset tool which is pretty expensive but worth it if you do a lot of clocks. The phone apps should do fine for just checking the rate.

Maybe I’m stating the obvious, but I’d tear it down, remove the springs, & reassemble the wheels & check if anything is binding or there is a rough spot in the train for some reason. I’d also look at lantern pinions - on a clock like this maybe one piece of wire could have fallen out

I agree, this is the next obvious step.

RC

 

[Dave T]

Completely agree with all that's been said concerning proper service. I've just been trying to study and learn about the issues on this one before I do. I know the oiling without proper service won't correct it, but just seeing if it made a difference. When I got it, it wouldn't run at all or barely. Looking back that was most likely an out of beat problem, not dry pivots.

 

[R. Croswell]

Completely agree with all that's been said concerning proper service. I've just been trying to study and learn about the issues on this one before I do. I know the oiling without proper service won't correct it, but just seeing if it made a difference. When I got it, it wouldn't run at all or barely. Looking back that was most likely an out of beat problem, not dry pivots.

I think you were looking at several issues that together added up to a no run condition. I usually do try to get a clock to run, or at least run with help, to try to see what's wrong before taking it apart. Now it's time to "operate". One thing I'm sure you will find is why so many here just don't work on Indian clocks, but we assume that it did run at one time and I believe you are close to getting it to run again!

RC

 

[Dave T]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I wanted to see what this clock will do on a completely wound up spring. Not sure I did that before, but though I had, evidently not. I've been watching it carefully every day.

Because the clock just quite sometime during the night. That would be six and a half days.

I noticed that the springs were still coiled fairly tight. So I took a picture of the springs last night while it was still running, and this morning it had stopped.
So I have a picture of that for comparison.
Notice the springs. (Center coils expanded considerably) Sticky/dirty springs?

There are two springs stops on the both springs. The time side has reached the inside stop but not the one at the top of the spring.
Looks like the springs still have half the coils still barely unwound.

I know, all of this leads to teardown and cleaning. So now I will do that.
Just thought you all might be interested in the progress.

 

[R. Croswell]

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I wanted to see what this clock will do on a completely wound up spring. Not sure I did that before, but though I had, evidently not. I've been watching it carefully every day.

Because the clock just quite sometime during the night. That would be six and a half days.

I noticed that the springs were still coiled fairly tight. So I took a picture of the springs last night while it was still running, and this morning it had stopped.
So I have a picture of that for comparison.
Notice the springs. (Center coils expanded considerably) Sticky/dirty springs?

There are two springs stops on the both springs. The time side has reached the inside stop but not the one at the top of the spring.
Looks like the springs still have half the coils still barely unwound.

I know, all of this leads to teardown and cleaning. So now I will do that.
Just thought you all might be interested in the progress.

Something happened to the pictures?

 

[Dave T]

Something happened to the pictures?

Sorry, here they are: First one still running, second one stopped. First picture yesterday, late evening,, second one this morning after it quit.

 

[shutterbug]

Just for curiosity, check the length of the pin that the verge sits on. If the spring holding the verge in place is touching it in any way, it will eventually stop the clock.

 

[wow]

I can’t tell from the photo but it looks like the leader is touching the end of the crutch loop. Be sure it hangs in the center of the loop.