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I'm a sucker...

Isaac

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Promised myself I wouldn't add any more clocks under my belt, but I've been missing the sound of my collection after moving to an apartment for grad school. The bug bites again. I can at least say it's a lot of clock in a small package that won't take up much space at all.

Well, here it is:


A HAC 4/4 westminster clock - same movement as the Celebrate Trinity/Westminster clocks, just in a nice and compact package. I presume it was not sold domestically in Germany, but rather exported judging by the Chime/Silence lever and the through-the-dial adjustments. Never seen a "Celebrate" style movement with copper colored rods before - might be used to mellow out the sound since there's not a lot of room for long rods.

I think the movements on these clocks are robustly made and don't really have a general pitfall in their design.

Any comments or information as always is appreciated. chimeclockfan Would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Isaac
 
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new2clocks

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Nice acquisition, Isaac!

If you plan to take the movement apart, please show a picture of the backplate without the chiming mechanism, pendulum, etc.

Regards.
 

Isaac

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Nice acquisition, Isaac!

If you plan to take the movement apart, please show a picture of the backplate without the chiming mechanism, pendulum, etc.

Regards.
Thanks N2C!

Will do! I don't have a lot of my repair kit with me, so I'll do the best with what I have.

Biggest thing I noticed on this example is the fact that the driving wheel for the chime drum has cutouts (most had a solid driving wheel). I think I can make out the standard HAC cross arrows on the rear plate, but I'll take more pictures of everything when it arrives.

Does this show up at all on any catalogs? It's the smallest example I've seen so far with this type of movement.
 

chimeclockfan

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This is an HAC mantel clock made somewhere between 1926-1932, after HAC had joined Junghans and VFU/Gustav Becker into a community of business interests which gradually led to Junghans overtaking both other companies by 1930.

The tag corresponds to a repairer located in Nr. Staines, Middlesex (England). It is difficult to determine where this clock was originally exported to. The great majority of German clocks & loose movements exported to Britain were stamped 'FOREIGN' in compliance with the 1926 British Merchandise Marks Act. Clocks that were exported to the United States were marked 'Germany' or 'Wurttemberg' instead. With the global clock trade it is not always so easy to figure out what went where and when. It has to be remembered that 'Made in Germany' was not synonymous with 'Made for Germany': the vast majority of HAC Westminster chime clocks were made for export despite some models appearing in the German regional catalogs.

Your clock appears in the 1928 catalog, albeit with Arabic numerals:
3449.jpg

It uses a lower grade version of the No. 64 movement which served the Borgfeldt Celebrates. It's close but lacks the two jeweled escapement and grained plates that define the high-grade Celebrate movements. Differences in movement grade and functionality were not listed in the catalogs but were up to each client to determine. Good quality movement nonetheless and would be interesting to 'trial' it against the Borgfeldt Celebrate. The usage of copper chime rods is typical for smaller cases where a quieter, subtle sound was preferred.

MovementDrawing.png
 
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Isaac

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This is an HAC mantel clock made somewhere between 1926-1932, after HAC had joined Junghans and VFU/Gustav Becker into a community of business interests which gradually led to Junghans overtaking both other companies by 1930.

The tag corresponds to a repairer located in Nr. Staines, Middlesex (England). It is difficult to determine where this clock was originally exported to. The great majority of German clocks & loose movements exported to Britain were stamped 'FOREIGN' in compliance with the 1926 British Merchandise Marks Act. Clocks that were exported to the United States were marked 'Germany' or 'Wurttemberg' instead. With the global clock trade it is not always so easy to figure out what went where and when. It has to be remembered that 'Made in Germany' was not synonymous with 'Made for Germany': the vast majority of HAC Westminster chime clocks were made for export despite some models appearing in the German regional catalogs.

Your clock appears in the 1928 catalog, albeit with Arabic numerals:
View attachment 669803

It uses a lower grade version of the No. 64 movement which served the Borgfeldt Celebrates. It's close but lacks the two jeweled escapement and grained plates that define the high-grade Celebrate movements. Differences in movement grade and functionality were not listed in the catalogs but were up to each client to determine. Good quality movement nonetheless and would be interesting to 'trial' it against the Borgfeldt Celebrate. The usage of copper chime rods is typical for smaller cases where a quieter, subtle sound was preferred.

View attachment 669806
Thanks Justin,

Forgot about the jeweled escapement pivots on the celebrates (Was late at night when I was typing out the original message. Seems also that the lower-grade versions of the No. 64 movement also did not have raised numerals like the celebrates do. Case construction, however, looks like no expense was spared.

It looks like the repair tag says "MAR 81", presumably March of 1981 when the clock was taken in for repair. If it were an earlier date, it would make it easier to possibly say it was originally exported to England - but there is a lot of time that passed between ~1930's to 1981.

Isaac
 

Isaac

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With the global clock trade it is not always so easy to figure out what went where and when.
I wonder if the clock originally was sold to the U.S. market judging by the mahogany case - some of the celebrate clocks also had the striking reddish ribboned mahogany cases. It is likely that the movement was cased in Germany (from the fact that the HAC plaque exists on the rear door).

Another point towards the clock being marketed in the U.S. is the fact that England loved to tout "English made cases" as an advertising point.


Just my $0.02 so far. Will have more to comment on once the clock arrives.
 
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Isaac

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Fedex is fun - the package was out for delivery last week, but then there was a delay due to some local shipping issue. Went back to the regional facility, then was sent out to Texas. Gave them a call, and now it's on the way back.

Hope the clock survives.
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hope the clock survives.
I do not like/trust FedEx. If a Seller insist upon using them, (they are cheap), I ask them to be sure to pack the clock for rough handling. If it arrives damaged, it goes back for a full refund. I'm not paying a dime out of pocket. The waste of my time is bad enough.

Good luck.
 
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Isaac

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The clock arrived, and thankfully everything was intact! Seller did a good job packaging it. The seat board screws loosened up a bit, but the movement was still in place and the screws tightened down again without an issue. It'll need screws for the top mounts, however, since those are missing. Movement will need a cleaning.

The escapement pallets were too close to the escapement wheel - adjusted them upwards and now the time train somewhat runs (have to dial it in more). In the meantime, here's a video and some pictures of the clock sitting on its new spot next to me. The highest hammer tail needs to be adjusted (you can hear it rub against a chime rod sometimes in the video). Very clear and strident sound for such a little clock.

A perfect little desk clock.

Hope you all enjoy.


IMG_2998.jpg IMG_2994.jpg IMG_2999.jpg IMG_3001.jpg
 
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Isaac

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Good quality movement nonetheless and would be interesting to 'trial' it against the Borgfeldt Celebrate. The usage of copper chime rods is typical for smaller cases where a quieter, subtle sound was preferred.
Took the movement out and did some measurements. Thankfully I have recorded on my computer the dimensions & features of my other clocks, so I can still compare without having both clocks next to me.

Same thickness plates, no jewels on this one. Movement has smooth plates, while Celebrate has the speckled plates. Same gong block assembly (different rods). Westminster only. This one lacks centrifugal fans (solid blades). Tonal quality of the rods is excellent, and roughly has the same volume as the Celebrate variation.

Rear plate of movement is marked with HAC's cross arrows only.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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The seat board screws loosened up a bit
I've seen this before but it's a puzzle as to how or why it happens. I've seen them come out completely and I've seen them "unscrewed" down to the sound board. I suspected that there was tampering, but I didn't want to accuse the customer of being dishonest. I just dealt with the consequence$.

Any ideas as to how/why this happens, and how to avoid it?
 

Salsagev

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The clock arrived, and thankfully everything was intact! Seller did a good job packaging it. The seat board screws loosened up a bit, but the movement was still in place and the screws tightened down again without an issue. It'll need screws for the top mounts, however, since those are missing. Movement will need a cleaning.

The escapement pallets were too close to the escapement wheel - adjusted them upwards and now the time train somewhat runs (have to dial it in more). In the meantime, here's a video and some pictures of the clock sitting on its new spot next to me. The highest hammer tail needs to be adjusted (you can hear it rub against a chime rod sometimes in the video). Very clear and strident sound for such a little clock.

A perfect little desk clock.

Hope you all enjoy.


View attachment 671863 View attachment 671864 View attachment 671865 View attachment 671866
It's a nice and compact clock for sure. I would say it packs a punch!




I've seen this before but it's a puzzle as to how or why it happens. I've seen them come out completely and I've seen them "unscrewed" down to the sound board. I suspected that there was tampering, but I didn't want to accuse the customer of being dishonest. I just dealt with the consequence$.

Any ideas as to how/why this happens, and how to avoid it?
I am not sure why people would tamper with the seatboards of these mantle clocks but they usually are incredibly hard to get back in (a downside with seatboard screws.) The one thing people are confident about when showing clocks for sale are showing the movement by the seatboard screws. But those are usually wall clocks.
 

Isaac

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Any ideas as to how/why this happens, and how to avoid it?
One of my leading suspicions is that the movement gets jarred upwards during shipping (just enough that it takes some pressure off of the seatboard screw's threads). Repeat this process for every bump in the road, and the screws will keep loosening up. Once all that threaded force is lost, then it's all down to whether or not the clock has sufficient packaging inside the case to keep things in place. I've encountered seatboard screws that were "jammed" after shipping - they loosened up, and likely the threads took a bit of an impact after being hammered around by the movement. A drop of penetrating fluid usually loosens them right up if they're really stuck in there.

A trick I use is to put a single wrap of thin masking tape around the portion of the seatboard screw's threads that go into the movement pillar - this tightens up the threaded connection between the seatboard screw and the threaded hole of the movement pillar. It doesn't hurt anything since it's extremely soft (and will tear before damaging the threads), and the worst that happens is that the tape leaves a sticky residue that can be easily cleaned off.

It's a nice and compact clock for sure. I would say it packs a punch!
Indeed it does!

Here's some nighttime photos of the clock:

IMG_3002.jpg IMG_3003.jpg
 

Bruce Alexander

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Some clocks, like Ansonia "Sonia" models, make it easy to remove the bottom sound board. This gives you direct access to the seat board fasteners. If the fasteners are hard to reach, always check to see if the bottom of the case can be removed without too much hassle.

In the future, I think that I'll just tighten the hell out of the fasteners so that no one can loosen them unless they know what they are doing and have the right tools. Perhaps I'll use lock washers under the fastener heads. That should be clean and easy.

I sent out a Sonia recently. It came back with a stalling issues complaint. The Seat Board Fasteners were unwound to the sound board. That was strange enough. The fact that to top movement brackets were still firmly screwed in place was damn puzzling. I strongly suspected tampering, but I took the clock back and ate the shipping costs on it anyway. Nothing was wrong with the clock. It tested without missing a beat or note for two weeks.

As I've mentioned before, some people should just stick to battery powered clocks, or maybe be satisfied using the smarter phone to tell them the time and the meaning of life... :chuckling:

Nice clock Isaac. The Rods sound nice as does the movement itself.
 

Isaac

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Some clocks, like Ansonia "Sonia" models, make it easy to remove the bottom sound board. This gives you direct access to the seat board fasteners. If the fasteners are hard to reach, always check to see if the bottom of the case can be removed without too much hassle.

In the future, I think that I'll just tighten the hell out of the fasteners so that no one can loosen them unless they know what they are doing and have the right tools. Perhaps I'll use lock washers under the fastener heads. That should be clean and easy.

I sent out a Sonia recently. It came back with a stalling issues complaint. The Seat Board Fasteners were unwound to the sound board. That was strange enough. The fact that to top movement brackets were still firmly screwed in place was damn puzzling. I strongly suspected tampering, but I took the clock back and ate the shipping costs on it anyway. Nothing was wrong with the clock. It tested without missing a beat or note for two weeks.

As I've mentioned before, some people should just stick to battery powered clocks, or maybe be satisfied using the smarter phone to tell them the time and the meaning of life... :chuckling:

Nice clock Isaac. The Rods sound nice as does the movement itself.
Thanks, Bruce,

Indeed, this clock has a removable sound board (issue is that the bun feet get in the way). As a matter of fact, I found this label on the bottom...

Never knew Camerer, Cuss & Co. would sell clocks like these - I'd always imagine them selling the likes of W&H chiming movements, not mid-range clocks like this one. However, a search does show a few tambour style clocks that have mid-range movements in them (albeit Camerer Cuss & Co. is proudly presented on the dial of the clock, while my clock does not have any identification marks on the dial besides the crossed arrows). Does solve the mystery of where the clock was originally sold, however! I've not seen many Camerer, Cuss & Co. chiming clocks in general at all.

Some pictures of the movement. as well as the sales sticker.

Isaac

IMG_3010.jpg IMG_3007 (1).jpg IMG_3005.jpg IMG_3014.jpg
 
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Isaac

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Mounted on the bottom.
 

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