Illinois private-labels

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Fred Hansen, Jun 6, 2004.

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  1. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Bruce:

    Very nice watch!

    Checking the references listed in the Illinois Watch Company Encyclopedia article, Illinois movement serial number 1285872 is an 18-size, model 5, hunting movement, built in about 1895. There were 4,480 made in this configuration over the years about 1895 - 1900, which is just about getting down to where it can be considered to be uncommon. This is a railroad watch, one that was widely accepted for railroad time service.

    The "s/n 70565 at about 1:00 on the goldr rim above the movement" is on the watch case center ring and it is the last five digits of the case serial number. The case was made by the Keystone Watch Case Co. It was one of their better gold-filled cases.

    Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

    Good luck,
     
  2. chell66

    chell66 Registered User

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    Kent (from up north in Georgia):
    Thanks for the info. I have had this watch for some time and only a few years ago did it stop keeping very accurate time. I brought it to a local watch shop that "specialized" in antique pocket watches. It took them three months during which I was told it was thoroughly cleaned and some worn parts had been repaired. When I asked if he had restored it to keeping time, he told me it needed a new mainspring and did not do that type of work. He also said he did not do restorations on the face. (I did not pay him.) Of course, now I am snake bit. I am assuming there are reputable companies that do restoration. I have seen several on the web and don't know if it proper to ask for recommendations on this site so I won't. It is my understanding that the wear on the face under the second hand is not uncommon. Is this correct and can the face be restored? As far as the movement is concerned, I am sure that with the popularity of these watches, restoration is available and this would include the mainspring (if they were telling the truth) and all other parts. I have read the link about selecting someone to do the restoration, but in addition to my history, I have heard and read that rip-offs are fairly common, and that overcharging for things like mainspring replacement is common from even "reputable" companies. I am further concerned by the fact that in South Florida, there is a ripoff on every street corner. So although my preference is to try to use someone local again, I doubt I will find someone I can trust. What process do you suggest for finding someone to do a thorough repair - restoration on this particular watch? Also, you mentioned it was a "model 5." Is this just the company's model # or does it have some other significance? I have also read in this thread about the "grade." Could you tell me to what that refers and if it has any application to my watch? Thank you for all of your assistance. The watch was a gift a long time ago and am glad that the person from whom I received it truly cared (at least about the quality of the watch). Thanks again.
    Bruce
     
  3. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Bruce:

    You may find the following Encyclopedia articles useful in understanding pocket watches and the terms that are used in discussing them:
    Movement Type
    Pocket Watch Dials
    Pocket Watch Jewels
    Pocket Watch Regulator
    Setting Watch Hands
    Watch Adjustment
    Watch Grades
    Watch Models
    Watch Runs
    Watch Size

    From your picture, it appears that the dial is chipped at the seconds post hole. Although there are people who can repair this such that it can hardly be seen, they are very expensive and have a long lead time. The general feeling amongst collectors is to accept such dials as they are and leave them alone. If there are only marks on the seconds bit where the hand has scratched the surface, perhaps they can be cleaned (by somebody who knows what they are doing) so as to not be so noticeable.

    As for obtaining proper watch service, I can recommend that you consider The Escapement
    View attachment 1024
    (Click for info.)

    Again, please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.

    Good luck,
     
  4. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Not sure if I ever listed this one is here... 103260.jpg 103261.jpg
     
  5. chell66

    chell66 Registered User

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    Thanks for all the info, it is greatly appreciated. I don't see a chip if you are referring to the seconds dial on the face. I will look at it live through my microscope.
     
  6. Dave Coatsworth

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    453208 - 'Crescent City', model 2, grade 3, 11J. Note the cut out balance cock. 104969.jpg
     
  7. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    199692 - 'Cleveland' (+ monogram), model 3, Columbia grade, 11J, SS dial 105764.jpg
     
  8. Watchfixer

    Watchfixer Registered User

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    John Pavlik,

    You have really GOOD light to take this pictures of this movement, how is this set up? I get glares all the time on my photos.

    Cheers, Watchfixer
     
  9. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Try cutting the top and the bottom off of an old one gallon milk jug and setting it over the watch. Then light from the sides.

    These pictures were done that way. I don't use a flash.
     
  10. B_wood

    B_wood New Member

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    #410 B_wood, Oct 21, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
    21 Jewel, lever set private label movement - "John C Pierik & Co, Springfield, Ill" Hunter movement in an open face case. Marked 21 Ruby Jewels, looks a lot like the Sangamo / Getty, but the damaskeening looks like a Bunn pattern. Serial number is 1977420. Running condition, seems to keep good time for the two days I ran it.

    Any grade or production number info would be appreciated. Also - the dial is marked Illinois Watch Co - Any thoughts on if this is likely a replacement, or original to movement?

    Cased in a white "14k gold filled" crown over balance Keystone / JBoss serial number 7604790.

    Brian

    BTW, have been a reader on the forum for a long time, but first time posting 105768.jpg 105769.jpg
     
  11. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Hey, congratulations on your first post, Brian. What a great watch to start with :D

    From the Russ Snyder Database:

    This is a Model 4 Sangamo 16size made in 1907 in one of 8 runs which produced a total of 1095 of this configuration. The runs were between 1907 and 1912.

    The lettering on the movement, and everything about the dial, are exactly right for the watch.

    The database describes the damascening as "bright spotted (third pattern)" so I assume yours is a special (although I'm not entirely sure what Snyder's description represents). The database also mentions one PL for B Franklin, Ariston.

    Super watch! :)
     
  12. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Brian,

    As Marty said, I think you have a great watch to start with.

    If you go back a few pages in the thread, you'll see that I also posted a Pierik watch-an 18 size gr. 65-E with the same pattern as yours(unusual for the grade).

    Also, your watch appears to have composition jewel settings rather than gold-this seems to be typical of the Pierik watches, but is of course unusual for a Sangamo grade.

    Fred Hansen, Sr has a Getty model Sangamo grade Pierik that has a very different pattern from yours and is only adjusted to 5 positions rather than the usual 6.

    I'll wait for some of the real Illinois experts to comment on yours, as they no doubt will.
     
  13. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Several other movements from this run are (as mentioned by Marty):

    1,977,507 - Ariston
    1,977,592 - Benjamin Franklin
    1,977,600 - Benjamin Franklin

    I wonder if the dial should be signed "John C Pierik & Co."
     
  14. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Kent,

    For what it's worth, I've seen and handled probably three or four different Pierik watches, including the one I own.

    I don't think that any of them had Pierik signed dials, but rather had the standard gothic signature Illinois dial that's expected for the grade of watches they are.

    Take this for what it's worth, but I've started paying a little bit closer attention to them since I found mine. And, of course, that doesn't mean that a Pierik signed dial won't turn up one day(if it hasn't already!). Based on my VERY limited experience, though, it doesn't really concern me that there's not one.

    One other thought I just had on this watch that's probably worth mentioning is that the damaskeen pattern appears to be the same as that found on the Getty model gr. 187.
     
  15. Dave Coatsworth

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    688372 - Standard Watch Co., Pittsburgh, PA 'Clipper', model 3, grade 2, 11J, Blank SS dial. 106909.jpg
     
  16. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    503379 - 'F.P. Fisk, Epping N.Y.', model 3, grade 65, ADJ, 17J (jeweled 5th pinion), DS dial. 107844.jpg 107845.jpg
     
  17. JohnL

    JohnL Registered User
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    Dave

    its Epping, NH
     
  18. Dave Coatsworth

    Dave Coatsworth Forums Administrator
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    Oops... So it is. Thanks, John.
     
  19. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    1794939-Plymouth Watch Co. (dial&mv't)
    4568535-Market St. Special (dial& mv't)
    277348-A.S. Joseph /Los Angeles,Cal. (no dial)
    2382502-Jaccard's /St. Louis, U.S.A. (mv't)
    Mermod Jaccard &King /St. Louis, U.S.A. (dial)
    3729513-Elite (no dial)
    4455656-Criterion (no dial)
    -Cort
     
  20. Jim Carroll

    Jim Carroll Registered User
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    Hi Cort,
    Can you confirm the serial No. on the pvt label 2382502 Jaccard's /St.Louis, U.S.A. (mv't) Mermod Jaccard & King / St. Louis, U.S.A. (dial), is it a size 12, Grade 219. 11 jewels. If so have you any images you could post.

    Thanks Jim
     
  21. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    Jim, Will do that today. I had another MJ&K a while ago and will get that info too.
    -Cort
     
  22. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    #2382502 is indeed a 12S,11J, gr.219. The other movement I have with the same markings is #2254783 Os,11J,gr. 33. I didn't post that one before because it is only an O size.-Cort 108621.jpg 108622.jpg
     
  23. Jim Carroll

    Jim Carroll Registered User
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    Thanks Cort, for the information and images.
     
  24. Dave Coatsworth

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    517851 - 'J. C. Proudman, 307 Eighth Ave. New York', model 2, grade 65, 15J (despite the '17 JEWELS' that is engraved on the movement - clearly hand engraved), ADJ, DS dial. 109747.jpg 109748.jpg
     
  25. Nigel Harrison

    Nigel Harrison Registered User

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    Nice Watch Dave, I really like that gothic font style used on the movement. :)
     
  26. chief13365

    chief13365 Registered User

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    Two new Illinois PL's

    O.D. Rudd, Ilion, NY
    18s model #6, grade 61, 17j, L/S, #1339965
    Waiting to be cased.

    View attachment 1025

    R.E. Crawford, Amsterdam, NY
    16s Getty model #5, S/W L/S, 17j

    Waiting for a mainspring.

    View attachment 1026
     
  27. Dave Coatsworth

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    250476 - 'San Juan', model 2, grade 101, 11J, DS dial. 112623.jpg
     
  28. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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    This has been a great thread to watch as it gets longer and longer. Happy New Year to all who have posted such swell watches. Would someone please find one of the two watches with serial numbers in between these two? I have been looking for years...come on now!

    View attachment 1027
    View attachment 1028
     
  29. Dave Coatsworth

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    240548 - 'Despatch', model 3 (misidentified as a model 1 in the database), grade 101, 11J. 115537.jpg
     
  30. Dave Coatsworth

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    244578 - 'Eureka', model 2, grade 101, 11J 115605.jpg
     
  31. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    3359808- Dial "Commodore Perry Special" Same on movement and also "O. Cohen/ Erie,Pa."
    3879191- Dial "Hartegan & Co." same on movement and also "Newark"
    205962- Movement only signed "A.F. Fieganbaum/ Dubuque, Ia."
     
  32. Dave Coatsworth

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    1247058 - 'Benedict Brothers, New York', model 2, grade 61, 15J 116839.jpg 116840.jpg
     
  33. Christopher Burris

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    1364759 - "Grant", model 4 grade 175 17J. Any ideas who this private-label was made for?
    117454.jpg 117455.jpg
     
  34. Dave Coatsworth

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    63708 - 'C. E. Gifford, Fall River, Mass.', model 1, Currier grade, 11J, blank dial 117594.jpg
     
  35. Dave Coatsworth

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    187747 - 'Superior', model 1, Columbia grade, 11J
    207194 - 'Forrest, Cincinnati, O.', model 1, grade 101, 11J
     
  36. Dave Coatsworth

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    353129 - 'Dauntless', model 2, Columbia grade, 11J 118564.jpg
     
  37. Dave Coatsworth

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    203479 - 'The Hub', model 3, grade 103, 17J (Jeweled 5th pinion, both sides) 119253.jpg
     
  38. Dave Coatsworth

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    450407 - 'O.K.', model 3, grade 3, 11J 119252.jpg
     
  39. Norm43

    Norm43 Registered User
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    I don't know if you have this one in your records...."Harvey Fritz, Oil City, Pa" on dial. Inside we find Illinois movement Getty 187. 17 Ruby Jewels, adjusted 6 positions, model 4 #1419182 (1900 +/-) Railroad grade,now in hunter case. From a 100 piece run (1,419,101 to 1,419,200) total production of this model was 1310....but very few with this particular dial. 121594.jpg 121595.jpg
     
  40. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Very nice, Norm. The 187 is a favorite grade of mine, and finding a PL is certainly nice.

    One quick question...187s are normally found with gold jewel settings. It doesn't appear as though yours has these. Is that correct?
     
  41. Dave Coatsworth

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    273671 - 'J. Miller, Cleveland', model 3, grade 101, 11J, SS dial 122253.jpg
     
  42. Dave Coatsworth

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    240786 - 'Willard', model 1, grade 101, 11J, SS dial, great coin silver box hinge case. 122267.jpg 122268.jpg
     
  43. Mike LaForest

    Mike LaForest Registered User

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    JH Reed from Paris - a little city in east central, Illinois 122377.jpg 122378.jpg
     
  44. Mike LaForest

    Mike LaForest Registered User

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    Private label from E.P. Haug in Paris - a little city in east central, Illinois 122379.jpg 122380.jpg
     
  45. Mike LaForest

    Mike LaForest Registered User

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    There was a "Grant" private label of your model evidently ordered by A.C. Becken, Chicago, IL.
     
  46. Dave Coatsworth

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    321415 - 'Winnipeg', model 2, grade 103, 15J, DS dial with old english font 123444.jpg
     
  47. sderek

    sderek Registered User
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    I just came into possession of an 18s Illinois private label from a jeweler in Lansing, Michigan. I'll post pictures soon.
     
  48. sderek

    sderek Registered User
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    Here it is. Model 2, grade 100 or 100-S, 11 jewels. Both movement and dial are marked "E.P. Newman Lansing, Mich.".

    123512.jpg
     
  49. Dave Coatsworth

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    272305 - 'C. E. Russel, Kansas City MO', model 2, grade 100, 11J, DS dial 124549.jpg 124550.jpg
     
  50. NC Plumber

    NC Plumber Registered User

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