Illinois private-labels

Jskirk

NAWCC Member
Aug 6, 2018
291
405
63
55
Indy
Country
Region
Nice, project watch hope to see it when your done.
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
1183040 - 'Fred Bucher, Baltimore, Md.', 16-size, model 1, grade 116, 16 jewels, DS dial. Great engraving with initials on one side and year (1895) on the other.

Illinois1183040Mvmt.jpg Illinois1183040Dial.jpg Illinois1183040CaseBack.jpg Illinois1183040CaseFront.jpg
 

Joe Blossic

Registered User
Sep 6, 2015
131
563
93
Country
272288 - 'H. E. Kline, Royer(s)ford, Pa.' ('Royersford' is spelled differently on dial and movement.) model 2, grade 101, 11 jewel, SS dial
Dave, Royersford is straight line 5 miles from Valley Forge and about twice that to where I am. Henry Kline was a jeweler there in the late 1800's, passing in 1890. I found a number of Kline's related to jewelers up to present day, but did not check linage to see if they might be related.
Providence Independent, V. 16, Thursday, December 11, 1890
2020-06-17 00_32_45-viewcontent.cgi.pdf - Adobe Acrobat Pro DC.png

I'm sure there is more; out of time tonight. Joe
 

PatH

NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Dec 5, 2014
2,148
1,601
113
Texas
Country
Region
1227502 - 'Engel Natl Watch Co., Chicago', model 5, grade 65, 17 jewel, DS dial

For a start, maybe this is our enterprising Mr Engel? All the following references list Chicago.

1902 Engel National Watch Co. was listed in Domestic and Foreign Corporations - A.W. Engel President or Manager
Certified List of Domestic and Foreign Corporations for the Year ...

1922 Albert W. Engel doing business as Engel Manufacturing Co issued patent for gummed labels.
Commissioner of Patents Annual Report

1932 Albert W. Engel doing business as Engel Art Corners Mfg Co awarded trademark
Index of Trademarks Issued from the United States Patent Office
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
243949 - 'Chenango', model 1, grade 99, 11 jewel.

Chenango translates to 'Bull Thistle' in the Oneida language. It is also a county in south central New York state. The Chenango river flows through this county.

Illinois243949Mvmt.jpg
 

marking_time

NAWCC Member
Nov 12, 2008
122
36
28
Lawrence, MI
Country
Region
Chris,
Your "Faraway Special" is a very interesting watch. The watch itself shows a different color loss pattern that is unusual. The barrel cover has lost all of its color, but the train plate still retains a good amount of the yellow gold 3rd pattern. The black-filled train plate markings are more robust than the delicate PL marking on the barrel cover. The black fill loss is only seen in the serial number, the 21 Ruby Jewels marking and the decorative engraving on the balance cock. Russ Snyder's DB indicates that serial number 1,352,067 (run 1,351,901 to 1,352,100 in1897) should have minimal markings on a bright spotted 4th pattern. Total production of 4,338 movements between 1895 and 1904. The bright spotted 4th pattern is the most common pattern and appears with many different marking constellations, . According to the DB, the vast majority (18,566 movements) of gold circle 3rd pattern specimens are found in 67 runs. Beginning with run 1,248,401 to 1,248,500 in 1894 and ending with run 1,742,701 to 1,742,800 in 1904. The two runs nearest to the 1,351,901 to 1,352,100 run are: 1,342,701 to 900 in 1896 and 1,355,601 to 800 in 1897. The Illinois Watch Co. was manufacturing both patterns with minimal markings at the same time. 4,338 movements with the bright spotted 4th pattern and 18,566 with the gold circle 3rd pattern. The 4th pattern is found on 10 of the 19 variants of 18S--21RJ--ON6L--AT6PI--Bunn Specials for a total of a little over 36,000 movements, twice the number of gold circle 3rd pattern movements. Of course, the DB could be incorrect. If anybody has other examples of the 200 movements in run 1,351,901 to 1,352,100, I would be interested in knowing whether the damaskeen pattern is the 3rd pattern or the 4th pattern.
Thanks for sharing.
Mike
 

Christopher Burris

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Dec 15, 2010
359
426
63
Country
Region
Thank you Mike, I would like to correct that it is "Laraway", I went crazy trying to fine Caraway in the census when I first received the watch, only to then realize I was reading it wrong too. W. F. Laraway is also listed in the blue book for a grade 61, but I found more Hamilton PL for him also and often not the standard damaskeen but most with special 2 tone finishes. I have confirmed that all serial numbers match.

387 bridge.jpg 387 balance cock.jpg 387 balance wheel.jpg
 

Bila

Registered User
Jan 22, 2010
1,370
472
83
www.ozwatchstore.com
Country
1352067 - W. F. Laraway, Special, Glenwood, Ia. Bunn Special, 21 Jewel, Model 6, DS dial marked W. F. Laraway, Glenwood, IA

A nice piece Chris, W. F. Laraway was a Watch Inspector for the CB & Q in 1899 both for Hastings and Pacific Junction, info compliments of Greg F's Railroad Watch Inspectors Book 2nd Edition copyright 2003. In my opinion your Guy is probably the same fellow:)
 

marking_time

NAWCC Member
Nov 12, 2008
122
36
28
Lawrence, MI
Country
Region
Chris,
I believe the simplest explanation is that movement 1,352,067 was designated to be a PL watch. Either Mr. Laraway requested or Illinois decided to fill the PL order by taking a blank from the 4th pattern line and finished it in the 3rd pattern line. I understand that this was a common practice at the Illinois Watch Co. Many people have spent a good deal of time attempting to rationalize these inconsistencies when they actually occur randomly. I am more interested in the continued refinement of the DB by correctly identifying the nature of movements in particular runs and thereby the total production of any particular configuration. For instance, I recently acquired an early (1883) movement (#302,104) that is an 18S--15J--HG1K--T. The DB describes this movement as a Miller grade, but it is clearly a Bunn movement. The balance cock engraving is unusual and I will publish it here once I get time to look for the matching serial number. In any case, you have a very nice Watch Inspector PL watch.
Thanks
Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: Christopher Burris

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
276402 - 'Leon A. Gillet, Lake Linden, Mich', model 2, Grade 100, 11 jewels. I didn't realize when buying this one that I also have the consecutive 276401 for the same retailer.

Illinois276402Mvmt.jpg
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
17127- 'P. S. Hyde, Piedmont, W. Va.', model 1, Hoyt grade, 9J, SS dial. Has a unique nickel plated balance cock. Note they also plated the endstone bezel to match.

Mr. Hyde's obituary provides quite a full account of his life: Peter S. Hyde (1836-1897) - Find A Grave Memorial

Illinois17127Mvmt.jpg Illinois17127Dial.jpg Illinois17127BC.jpg
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
318526 - 'C. R. Talcott, Olympia, W.T.', model 1, Currier grade, 13J. This movement left the factory in 1882 while Washington was still a territory. Olympia was the capitol. Washington became a state in 1889.

Illinois318526Mvmt.jpg Illinois318526Dial.jpg Illinois318526WithChain.jpg
 

musicguy

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 12, 2017
7,499
4,022
113
New York State
Country
I agree!

Looks like someone broke the case screw removing it from a case?


Rob
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
Yeah, there is a broken case screw. Easy enough to get those out. I bought it from an experienced seller, so the damage probably happened before that.
 

John Cote

Director
NAWCC Member
Aug 26, 2000
4,445
872
113
Midwest USA
www.johncotephotography.com
Country
Region
Yeah, there is a broken case screw. Easy enough to get those out. I bought it from an experienced seller, so the damage probably happened before that.
This usually happens when the in-experienced scrapper took the movement out of its gold case before he/she sold it to the experienced collector. :(
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,274
3,369
113
36
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Nice one Joe! Thanks for posting it!

C.P. Barnes has been a bit of a mystery, which is strange given its size. Hopefully one day some literature or a catalog will come up. Especially from the early 1880s like your movement.

I also have a Miller marked movement from this run, 53,056, which is a model two. This run is interesting as it seems to be a mixed group of model 1&2, and now private labels as well!
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
30957 - 'The Miner's Watch - W(illiam). Manning, Virginia, Nev.', model 1, Currier grade, 11 jewel, SS dial. Per census and city directory entries William Manning was in Virginia City from 1876 to 1881. He shows up in San Francisco in 1882.

Illinois30957Dial.jpg Illinois30957Mvmt.jpg
 
Last edited:

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,274
3,369
113
36
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Dave, that is truly a wild west treasure!

Virginia City and Gold Hill are two very interesting towns. The Comstock Lode put them into prosperity and there are many people who rushed to the area to make their fortunes including jewelers. From 1859 through the 1870s this city boomed! The workers were some of the highest paid miners in the country(in their prime). I hadn't heard of Mr. Manning before your post, but avidly search out one other Virginia city jeweler. Money flowed through this town like water, and you could buy any sort of high end items in Virginia City just as if you were in the business district of San Francisco. The railroad went right through Illinois where it picked up some of my favorite Elgins, and Daves Currier above, and took them right to Virginia City and San Francisco. People with money want fancy things, watches included!

I believe Mr. Manning may have arrived at the wrong time. In 1875 a major fire wiped out a huge chunk of the city. While they did rebuild, the mines were starting to produce less, and the population decreased rapidly. 25,000 people in the 1870s to 16000 in 1880.
A steady and rapid decline in population from 1880 onward.

If you want to loose a ridiculous amount of time to interesting reading... look up the Comstock Lode and we will see you next month. A different Virginia city watch caused quite a few late nights of reading for myself.
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
It is fascinating to think about the environment in which this watch was purchased. Given the date of the fire, I wonder if the rebuilding prompted Mr. Manning to move to Virginia City. And, the declining population might explain his leaving after only five years. Here's another Virginia City jeweler I have...

Illinois1047998Dial.jpg Illinois1047998Mvmt.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,274
3,369
113
36
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Thanks Dave!

Cool watch! Much later than others.

Luckily Virginia City is a historic landmark and there are a number of wonderful pictures online from way back.

I agree it would be really neat to see the state of affairs in that town, at the time. This is an instance (for me) where a watch is only a part of the collecting experience. The joy of private labels.

Other Virginia City jewelers include:
E. Nye
M.M. Frederick
W.T. Eaves


Just a couple tidbits on Manning, courtesy of Library of Congress

The Pioche weekly record. [volume] (Pioche, Nev.), July 19, 1879, Image 2

Screenshot_20201105-195910.png

Gold Hill daily news. [volume] (Gold Hill, N.T. [Nev.]), December 24, 1877, Image 3

Screenshot_20201105-201031~2.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave Coatsworth

rschussel

Registered User
Mar 1, 2002
214
154
43
I may have posted this one before, but didn't see it here... it's a PL Grade 509, 12s, 21j , SN 2903690, with both dial and movement marked, "Ariston Rated U.S.A." The movement has an interesting logo/ for Ariston. 3,067 made according to the PWDB...In a gold filled hinged back/bezel case ALSO marked inside with "ARISTON".

View attachment 557890 View attachment 557891 View attachment 557892
The logo is for Marshall Field and Company which is located in Chicago IL.
I may have posted this one before, but didn't see it here... it's a PL Grade 509, 12s, 21j , SN 2903690, with both dial and movement marked, "Ariston Rated U.S.A." The movement has an interesting logo/ for Ariston. 3,067 made according to the PWDB...In a gold filled hinged back/bezel case ALSO marked inside with "ARISTON".

View attachment 557890 View attachment 557891 View attachment 557892
The logo is for Marshall Field and Company Chicago Il. Ariston was the private label for Marshall Field and Company. The 12/14 size Ariston movements had a unique ebauche (compared to the regular Illinois plate layout).
Only 20 serial numbers were reserved for the 21j Ariston Rated
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
1388963 - Parritt Jewelry Co., Bloomington, Ill. Misidentified as a model 5 in the database, this is actually a model 6 and I believe a grade 64. 17 jewels. Double sunk dial.

Illinois1388963Mvmt.jpg Illinois1388963Dial.jpg

I didn't realize it at the time, but I was buying a consecutive to another watch in my collection - #1388964 - Rock Island Special. Illinois1388964Dial.jpg Illinois1388964Mvmt.jpg
 

Dave Coatsworth

Senior Administrator
Staff member
NAWCC Business
NAWCC Fellow
Sponsor
Feb 11, 2005
7,947
2,553
113
61
Camarillo, CA
www.daveswatchparts.com
Country
Region
1292211 - An 18-size, model 6, 17 jewel, grade 64. (Incorrect entry in the database, which shows this as a mixed model 3/4 run.)

I'm interested in hearing if anyone has ever seen one of these names as I question whether dial and movement go together. Ehrhardt shows both entries separately.

The dial is 'Sloan & Feinberg, Ironwood, Mich'

The movement is 'The Accurate Timer, Cosmopolitan Watch Co., USA'

Illinois1292211Dial.jpg Illinois1292211Mvmt.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: musicguy and viclip

Fred Hansen

NAWCC Member
Aug 18, 2002
5,439
555
113
Country
That dial is 100% correct as Morris Feinberg and Raphael Sloan were partners and ordered “Cosmopolitan Watch Co. Accurate Timer” marked watches from Illinois, Seth Thomas, Waltham and Hamilton.

Some of these are marked with just the Morris Feinberg name, some are marked with the Feinberg & Sloan partnership name, and some are marked only with the Raphael Sloan name.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
165,521
Messages
1,440,935
Members
86,278
Latest member
GeorgeSlari
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,873
Last edit
Weekly News 7/7/19 by Tom McIntyre