(Illinois) Private Label Research

[Allan C. Purcell]

Yes, Rob, and more. I owe the authors an apology, they did mention Grade 103, though it was not about improvement from 103 to 104 & 105. It was about the Regulators on these watches.

"In late 1880 and mid1881, Grade 103 watches were appearing with Wheeler´s Regulator, such as the two watches from 1881 noted above. Regardless of an" improved "performance" offered by Wheeler´s Regulator, there is more direct evidence to explain the presence of Wheeler´s rather than Chalmers regulators on Grade 104 and 105 watches." (They explained that)




Table 2. Summary of Runs and Production.

Grade/model Runs Total Production Known Survivors

104 Hunting 3 301 10(3,3%) (Now 11)
104 Open Face 1 200 10 (5,0%)
105 Hunting 5 560 12 (2.1%)
105 Open Face 2 150 5 (3.3%)



Would it be possible today to ask members to tell us (on a new thread) to show us their 103, 104, and 105 Illinois pocket watches to see if we can improve the percentage?

To be continued.

 

[Rhett Lucke]

16 size, 21J Washington Watch Co. Army and Navy.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

This is the presentation I made from the article in the Bulletin. It tries to simplify the story a bit but, of course, intoduces some of my biases that the co-authors may not share.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thank you, Tom, for posting the above it clears some of the questions I had. Though one question I have, stuck in my head, and it won´t let go.
On post-1496, it shows the details of 1067297, calling it Grade 2 class 3. Is that some way of upgrading the watch? I find it difficult to distinguish 1067297 from a 105. or is it just the gilding? Maybe we should look more at the PL watches for the missing numbers.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

244347 - 'West Shore', model 2, grade 101, 11 jewel, SS dial

 

[Jim Haney]

Love the Gold regulator scale, KW Guard and Banking pins, A fresh and clean example for sure.

 

[Christopher Burris]

New owner of an Illinois Sangamo Grade, Benjamin Franklin, 21Jewel, OF

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

688618 - 'Dana N. Coy, Windsor, Vt.', model 3, grade 2 1/2, 15 jewels, SS dial

 

[Bostonjoe]

Here is Illinois #34808, a Hoyt grade private label movement. Marked L.L. Robinson, Mercer PA. Made circa 1876, which may explain the patriotic eagle carved on the 5oz silver case.

 

[4thdimension]

Found this for 10- at our mart today. Pretty easy to see why it stopped. #1568801 signed only H.A. Stilwell. -Cort

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

1046505 - 'Hammersmith & Field, San Francisco', 16-size, model 2, grade 114, 15 jewel, SS dial

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

1152972 - 'Wilson Brothers, Boston, Mass.', 16-size, model 2, grade 114, 16 jewel, DS dial

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

1045708 - 'L. W. Folsom, Sumter, South Carolina', 16-size, model 2, grade 113, 15 jewel, SS dial.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

407249 - 'B. J. Cizkousky (I think), Chicago, Ill.', model 1, Columbia grade, 11 jewel, SS dial with nice monogram.

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

I have an open face 16s Illinois serial 2557071 with a Bothwell Jewelers, San Jose, Cal. printed on the dial face.

It was a relatives watch passed down and on the inside back B&B 6782798 cover, there are engravings from the service invoice work orders when it was serviced back in the day. He lived in the San Jose Area and was born in 1851.

I am new here and don't know much about pocket watches, but please let me know if there are things I should be looking for with this watch.

The watch runs and keeps time perfectly.

Thank you

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

Hello Jas, and welcome to the forum!

First off, I can tell you that the most important part of an American pocket watch is the movement. Can you please show a photo?

Based on the serial number you provided, you have a 16-size, model 7, grade 304, 17-jewel pocket watch manufactured in 1913. At the time this was made, Illinois was not casing their own watches. Instead, they sold movements to distributors (or, jobbers) who, in turn, sold to jewelers. When you went to the jeweler to buy a watch, you first picked out a movement and then a case and the jeweler put the two together. So, you can see, when studying Illinois (and most other American manufacturers) of this time, it is the movement that is studied. The cases are interesting, but case manufacturer records did not survive, so we know very little about them.

By the way, your case is 'gold filled'. This is a sandwich of gold, with brass in between. The gold on each side was usually about 1/20 the thickness of the center brass. The '20 years', indicates that this is how long the manufacturer would warrent the case before the gold wore and the underlying brass was exposed.

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

Thank you for your reply & welcome Dave.

Here is a picture of the movement.

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

I'm also interested in the dial markings for these watches.

In the original post, Fred was asking about dial markings.

I know that this watch may have no significance to the original post, but I was curious about the "Bothwell Jeweler San Jose, Cal. on the dial face. I also have the attached envelope, from Bothwell Jewelers.

Since my relative lived in San Jose, I thought it was interesting that the dail face stated the jewelers name. I looked up Bothwell Jewelers, but it appears that they are long closed.

Does anyone know anything about this Jewlery Store? I was hoping to find answers to the invoice numbers etched into the back cover of the watch and if they could be discerned somehow.

If the watch is a 1913 year make, and my relative died in 1934, the etched markings on the back cover are in order - 26592, 28193, x30660, 32475, x33126, 41484, x41659. I was pondering if the first 2 digits of the number stood for the year, x stood for a major service, and the last two etchings for service were performed by my Great grandfather who subsequently received the watch. The numbers etched appear to be by the same hand...

Thank you for any thoughts.


.

 

[musicguy]

Hi Jas and welcome to the NAWCC Forum!

and the last two etchings for service were performed by my Great grandfather

Was your grandfather a Jeweler? I'm just curious how you know he made the last two marks.
Is that part of your family history?

Most of the time these marks are meaningless to anyone but the
original jeweler. It was their own code.


Rob

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

Hi Jas and welcome to the NAWCC Forum!


Was your grandfather a Jeweler? I'm just curious how you know he made the last two marks.
Is that part of your family history?

Most of the time these marks are meaningless to anyone but the
original jeweler. It was their own code.


Rob

Thank you Rob! Hoping to learn what I can about this watch as the history is meaningful to me.

No, my great grandfather was not a jeweler. What I meant was, that since my Great Great had died, it was my Great that took the watch into the jeweler to be serviced - under my train of thought that 26192 stands for 1926, 28193 stands for 1928, etc. With the similarities in the engravings, I was assuming that maybe my great just continued the service after my great, great's death. A better answer may be that they were just ongoing invoice numbers from Bothwells and all the service work could have been perormed before he died. All the numbers do look like engravings by the same person.

Has anyone seen a Bothwells dial face before? Is the dial face part of the movement?

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

I don't recall seeing a Bothwells marked movement/dial before. Yes, the dial would be considered to be part of the movement as they were shipped together from the factory. (Unlike the case, which would have been assembled to the movement by the jeweler.

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

I don't recall seeing a Bothwells marked movement/dial before. Yes, the dial would be considered to be part of the movement as they were shipped together from the factory. (Unlike the case, which would have been assembled to the movement by the jeweler.

I would assume that it was hard for someone back in 1913, even a jeweler, to provide the lettering on the dial, so maybe Bothwell Jeweler had an agreement with Illinois Watch Co. to produce this movement for them.

I am finding a Charles A. Bothwell (1863-1914) was a Jeweler on 112 S. First Street, San Jose, Ca. and later, E.L. Bothwell (1890-1949) was a Jeweler at 155 S. First Street, San Jose, Ca. I found E.L. to be Charles son in 1910 census.
Charles wife worked at the shop too.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

Yes, purchasers (jewelers or agents) would contract with the manufactures to put their private label names on the dial or movement. Sometimes this was free, sometimes there was a minimal charge ($.50 or $1.00 each, for example). Some companies would charge for the dial but make it free for them movement and some did the other way around.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

1181986 - 'Wm. Griffith, Cleveland, O.', model 2, grade 61, 15 jewel, SS dial

 

[Jas H. Stewart]

Awesome

 

[Lee Passarella]

Montgomery Ward & Co., 18s, 24j, c. 1898, Serial No. 1415139.

 

[BobbyBrown]

Hello all,

It’s my understanding that the Illinois Watch Co. made quite a few private label watches, specifically when it came to dials and especially for movement markings for small-time jewelers.

Well, I’d like to see those dials and movement markings and read about your historical research on your 12s Illinois watches.

I’ll start:

While this particular dial is not overly significant, it is fairly interesting in that in the early to mid 1900s, a woman, who’s only name I can find is Mrs. J. H. Hoever, inherited ownership (after her husband passed away) of a small drugstore and Jewelry shop in Willows Ca., and seemingly contracted the Illinois Watch Co. to print her name on the dials if the watches she sold.

Here is her shop, year unknown:

There’s absolutely nothing significant about this dial, nor the movement which is a simple 15 jewel Illinois Grade 228, that I obtained as an orphan and have since serviced, replaced the dial with a simple “Illinois” marked dial and cased up, but I thought that since I enjoyed searching for the origin of this particular watch, perhaps someone else has an odd 12s Illinois with some obscure history that they might like to share, too.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

That is a great and unusual dial, as you note, to have a woman's name on the business. I have many private label Illinois 12-size watches, but most are for larger and better-known jewelers, such as "Ariston" for Marshall Field & Co., "Washington Watch Co." for Montgomery Ward & Co., or "Hallmark" for United Jewelers.

Phelps & Perry was a New York jeweler, best known on this board for some of the high-grade movements he ordered, such as this 23-jewel grade 299 -


"Chronos" is a label that I have not been able to tie to a particular jeweler, but I think this 21j grade 299 is lovely -


I'm afraid I have not searched much for the history of these.

 

[musicguy]

BobbyBrown ,
Thank you for posting your Illinois Private label. We do have a
existing thread that I do think you may be interested in, and I am
going to merge your good post into the existing Illinois Private Label Research thread.

(Illinois) Private Label Research

I've been recording data on Illinois Watch Co. private-labels for a few years now and want to ask here for help with this project. I'm interested in the markings and serial numbers of all 16 and 18 size Illinois with anything different than the usual Illinois factory markings on the movement...

mb.nawcc.org

Rob

 

[BobbyBrown]

That is a great and unusual dial, as you note, to have a woman's name on the business. I have many private label Illinois 12-size watches, but most are for larger and better-known jewelers, such as "Ariston" for Marshall Field & Co., "Washington Watch Co." for Montgomery Ward & Co., or "Hallmark" for United Jewelers.

Phelps & Perry was a New York jeweler, best known on this board for some of the high-grade movements he ordered, such as this 23-jewel grade 299 -
View attachment 763524 View attachment 763525

"Chronos" is a label that I have not been able to tie to a particular jeweler, but I think this 21j grade 299 is lovely -
View attachment 763530 View attachment 763531

I'm afraid I have not searched much for the history of these.

These Grade 299 movements are so beautiful, and they’re made so much more beautiful with their history.

I really do wish that there was more information that was saved/preserved by the Illinois Watch Co. and/or Hamilton in regards to who ordered what and the ensuing ordering exchange info with regards to these watches.

There’s a lesson here, I guess; never destroy seemingly useless information - you’ll never know who will be interested in it in the future

 

[Jerry Treiman]

There’s a lesson here, I guess; never destroy seemingly useless information - you’ll never know who will be interested in it in the future

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?

The missing information does give us something to search for, though, doesn't it? I mostly research and collect private-label Walthams these days. Waltham left me a few clues, but the rest is just deep searches and collecting information from observation. Ebay at least makes observations much easier to make than in the old days.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

276839 - 'G. O. Jaccard, Kansas City, Mo.', model 2, grade 100, 11 jewel (database is incorrect stating 15 jewel), missing dial.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

688547 - 'Tilton & Richards, Rochester, NH', model 3, grade 2, 11 jewels.