(Illinois) Private Label Research

[Fred Hansen]

Don - Thanks for the input, and though I am not actively recording details on Illinois private-labels smaller than 16 size I always enjoy seeing a nice watch ... so if you have photos handy they are definitely welcome here! I think these Hallmark marked watches are neat with the triple-signed marking on dial, case, and movement.

Jon - There are active threads on this board for the Rockford and Elgin private-labels and John Fogarty has been assembing this data into the private-label lists that are posted on the Chapter 149 site. Here is a link to the Elgin private-label thread ... https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=25599 ... and here is to the Rockford thread ... https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=11216

Fred

 

[Submarine Chief]

Fred,
I am not the best photographer, but maybe these will do.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Looks nice Don and I do not see them as often with the nicely engraved case.

Thanks for showing!



Fred

 

[frankb]

Hi Fred- Thank you for posting the dial from the San Diego area. That's the first one I've seen from there.

I have not been able to get my hands on the Illinois watch that I mentioned but this the description I have in my notes:
Dial labeled "W.A. Bowen Kewanee, Ill.", 18 size (?), 17 jewels (?), #1288250, hunter case, triple sunk dial (?), Illinois #5 (?)

I'm not pocket watch literate so I have added a (?) to those features that I am not certain of. I'm also not sure that it's an Illinois but that's the make & model it most closely resembles in the price guide. I also don't recall what, if any, markings are on the movement (but it's obviously not marked Illinois). The PL & serial number may be sufficient for your study...but I'll keep looking for the watch.

Thanks again, Frank

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Frank and it sounds very likely that this is an Illinois watch and I have seen other private-labels (but with different PL markings) from the same run of this grade very near in serial number. My guess is that it would likely be marked with this name and location on the dial and movement.

Fred

 

[Fred Hansen]

21 jewel movement from a run of 17J Bunn grade ...




[edit=723=1180733154][/edit]

 

[Tom Huber]

Fred, Got a scrap 18S, 15J movement today with a private label dial on it that reads P. C. Krouse & Co, Columbus, O.

Tom

 

[Dave Chaplain]

Hi Fred,

I think Jon is thinking of the 10 pages or so of the Illinois PL list on the Chap 149 MB. Here is an update to what I've seen including then with more data, and now ...

Dave

2,694 18 15 H F G 1 K ADJ Sim Stuart - Larmour & Co Baltimore Md
23,950 18 15 H F G 1 K T Sim Miller - Jos H Gale Baltimore Md
143,531 18 11 H F G 1 K U Sim Columbia - SC Newhall Lynn Mass
163,048 18 7 O F G 1 K U Sim America - Norman Schuctz Olean NY
171,305 18 11 O F 2C 3 L U Whip Columbia - Howard Brothers Independent Fredonia NY Improved April 10 1879
211,247 18 17 O F 2C 3 L T Sim 103 - Central Park
211,518 18 15 H F N 2 L T Sim 103 - Jefferson St. Louis LB&Co
211,524 18 17 O F 2C 3 L T Sim 103 - Governor Boston
213,913 18 15 H F N 2 L TPI Sim 103 - Forest City
230,586 18 11 O F N 3 L T Sim 101 - Vanderbilt
273,329 18 16 H F N 3 L TI Chalmers 101 - FJ Hutchinson Hornellsville NY Patent Pinion
276,139 18 15 H F N 2 L TI Chalmers 100 - CA Parlin Oroville Cal Patent Pinion
320,193 18 15 H F 2C 2 L TPI Sim 103 - Regulator Chicago Ill
321,188 18 15 H F N 2 L TPI Chalmers 106 - MINNEAPOLIS
356,660 18 11 H F G 1 K U Sim Columbia - JF Zeitler St Louis Mo
507,650 18 17 O F N 3 L TPI Chalmers 65 - MA Ruger Emira NY
688,018 18 11 O F G 3 L U Sim 2 - E PERKINS
712,701 18 15 O F G 3 L TPI Chalmers 5 - Hoffman & Robinson Newark NY Adjusted
849,090 18 7 H F G 2 L U Sim IWCo - Des Moines Watch Co
1,092,907 18 15 O F N 4 P TPI Whip 65 - HA LaRue Oskaloosa IA
1,092,918 18 15 O F T 4 P TPI Whip 65 - Hermann Lucke Worcester Mass
1,128,836 18 15 H F N 2 L TPI Chalmers 65 - Zi Riley Special
1,182,538 18 15 O F G 4 P U Sim 2.5 - Francis Lemon, Ashland Neb
1,195,905 18 15 H F N 5 L TPI Chalmers 61 - N.S. Plank Iowa City, Iowa
1,237,636 16 15 H 3 N 1 L U Whip 114 - Forsyth & Hoffman Philadelphia Pa
1,237,675 16 17 H 2 T 1 L Adj Whip 114 - FM Burkitt Arlington Heights Illinois 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,240,729 18 17 H F T 2 L TPI Chalmers 65 - The National Chicago Ill
1,247,389 18 11 H F N 2 L TI Chalmers 99 - Fred L Merrill & Co Portland ME
1,248,612 18 15 O F T 6 L TPI Whip 65 - Fred C Merrill & Co Portland Me Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,252,406 18 17 H F N 2 L TPI Chalmers 61 - Illinois Watch Co Springfield The President 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,254,100 16 16 H 3 N 1 L At3pi Whip 114 - A P Lundborg , Worcester Mass
1,262,356 18 17 O F N 4 P Atpi Whip 61 - Smith Sturgent & Co Detroit Mich
1,271,823 18 17 O F T 4 P TPI Whip 65 - AW Avery Plymouth ND
1,282,377 18 17 O N N 6 L TPI Whip Bunn - Made for EK Crothers for Rail Road Service
1,290,753 18 17 O F T 6 L TPI Whip 65 - TK Tilden Boston Mass
1,299,515 18 21 O F N 6 L T6PI Whip Bunn Special - Southern Railroad Special
1,302,811 16 17 O 3 N 5 L U Whip 174 - G. LANZ, Norristown, Pa.
1,308,774 16 17 O F 2C 5 L TI Whip 175 - The Edward B. Butler Special
1,313,512 16 16 O B N 5 L U Whip 173 - Wm Barthman New York
1,317,342 16 17 H 3 N 4 L U Whip 174 - R Winzenried Cleveland O
1,335,292 18 17 O F N 6 L TPI Whip Bunn - Howes Bros Clinton Iowa
1,335,605 18 17 O F N 6 L Atpi Whip 64 - Sears and Roebuck Special
1,338,823 18 17 H F T 5 L TPI Screw 64 - Stewart Special Chicago Ill
1,338,843 18 17 H F N 5 L TPI Screw 64 - Stewart Special Chicago USA
1,354,299 18 17 H F N 5 l ADJ Screw 64 - Chas M. Harrington Kirksville, Mo 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,356,745 18 17 H F N 5 L ATPI Screw Bunn - Ch. Hoenninger New York 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,357,589 18 17 O F T 6 L TPI Whip 64 - Railroad King
1,364,826 16 17 H 3 N 4 L TI Whip 175 - No. 777
1,375,025 18 17 O F T 6 L T4PI Whip 65 - Chas A Gaudette Fall River Mass 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,424,423 18 17 H F N 5 L Atpi Screw 64 - Jacob Ramser Rock Island Ill
1,426,181 18 17 H F N 5 L Atpi Screw 61 - Lambert Bros., New York, 58th St. & 3rd Ave. 17 Jewels Safety Pinion
1,433,488 16 15 O 3 N 5 L U Whip 173 - A.P. Lundborg Worcester, Mass.
1,448,074 18 21 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 61 - Montgomery Ward & Co
1,461,849 18 17 O B N 6 L Atpi Whip 64 - Carl W. Anderson & Co. Manchester N.H. 17 Jewels Adjusted
1,479,882 16 17 H 3 N 4 L TI Whip 175 - No. 777 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion
1,479,884 16 17 H 3 N 4 L TI Whip 175 - No 777
1,484,803 18 21 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 61 - Montgomery Ward & Co
1,509,048 16 11 O 3 N 5 L U Whip 172 - Montgomery Ward & Co.
1,610,893 18 21 O F N 6 L ADJ Whip Bunn Special - Paul Hohrfeldt Escanaba Mich 21 Ruby Jewels Adjusted
1,612,997 18 17 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 61 - Lakeshore
1,621,750 18 15 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 51 - SEARS ROEBUCK & CO SPECIAL
1,641,293 18 17 O F T 6 L T4PI Whip 65 - WE Morse Special Danvers Mass
1,694,499 18 17 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 69 - Liberty Bell Washington Watch Co
1,695,955 16 17 O B N 5 L TI Whip 175 - Paillard Non-Magnetic Watch Co Chicago IL
1,706,896 16 17 H 2 N 4 L T4PI Whip 184 - Paegel Jewelry Mfg Co Minneapolis 17 Jewels Adjusted
1,819,340 16 17 O 3 N 5 L TI Whip 175 - No. 777
1,902,762 16 17 O 3 N 5 L U Whip 174 - J.N.BRISSON MONTREAL
1,912,260 16 17 O 3 N 5 L TI Whip 175 - Plymouth Watch Co
2,084,579 16 17 H 3 N 4 L Ati Whip 175 - Landis Watch Co Chicago USA General
2,092,981 16 17 O 3FB N 5 L TPI Whip 185 - C. E. Morley Jordan NY
2,315,934 16 17 H B N 4 L ADJ TI Whip 175 - Senate Washington Watch Co Safety Pinion
2,336,500 18 23 O 3 T 6 L T6PI Whip Bunn Special - Inter State Chronometer 23 Jewels Adjusted
2,357,763 16 21 O B T 7 P At3P Whip 306 - Jason Weiler & Son Boston 21 Jewels Adjusted 3 Positions
2,427,712 18 21 H F T 6 L T5PI Whip A Lincoln - Made Expressly For Wehmanen & Co
2,486,268 18 17 O F N 6 L TPI Whip 69 - Liberty Bell Washington Watch Co
2,969,980 16 17 O B N 7 P T3P Whip 306 - Illinois Watch Co Springfield Diplomat 19 Jewels Adjusted 3 Positions Double Roller
3,117,159 16 17 O B N 7 P U Whip 304 - Illinois Watch Co Springfield 17 Jewels Double Roller No. 805
3,136,572 16 17 O 3 N 7 P U Whip 604 - Texas Special
3,803,947 16 17 O 3 T 7 P AT Whip 305 - Illinois Central
4,310,027 16 17 O B N 7 P ADJ Whip 305 - Capitol

[Edited to remove dial only and Burlington entries- dave]

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Dave and Tom!

It will be a few days before I can add these to my notes but I will post back with anything interesting I see on any.

Fred

 

[Jon Hanson]

Yes, I added three yesterday on the chapter 149 MB.

 

[Jon Hanson]

1114550 Zi Riley/Special/Champaign, Ill. Nickel HC 9 jewel (upgraded from 7?) matching dial

1168078 S.N.Clarkson/Chicago, Ill. Nickel HC 11J gilt trim matching dial

 

[GD1]

John A. Miller Cairo, Ill. on movement, serial no. 1302265, 21 ruby jewels, Tu-tone Getty model. 999 on dial.

I have an E. A. Buder Cairo Illinois 17j Bunn 18 size HC but it is marked on dial only. Also another John A. Miller 17 jewel Getty open face marked on dial only. I know you aren't recording these, just mentioning them for interest.

 

[waynet7]

I have movement #176206 with the name of J. C. Woefle. Peoria Ill. The dial is simply marked ILLINOIS WATCH CO. IT is single sunk with seconds markings of 15, 30, 45, and 60. It has 11 jewels.

 

[waynet7]

I have movement #176206 with the name of J. C. Woefle. Peoria Ill. The dial is simply marked ILLINOIS WATCH CO. IT is single sunk with seconds markings of 15, 30, 45, and 60. It has 11 jewels.

It is 18 size

 

[Norman Bliss]

Fred, going back to the Gaudette watches of RI & Fall River MA, you said you'd seen six, two labeled for Arctic Center RI, and four for Fall River. Do you have dates or SNs for them? I'm on summer break, and can do some research on Gaudette, and watch dates can help with the research. I noted the Fall River Gaudette on Dave's list, which dates to 1897.

On a separate note, were Hallmark watches made for a company as were Montgomery Ward & Burlington? My first PL watch was a Hamilton 974 labeled for M.W. Bassett in Hartford, CT. I had a lot of fun researching Merton Bassett, and found ads from his start until he went out of business in 1932. From the mid '20s on, he advertised as 'Bassett, the Hallmark Jeweler', and 'Hallmark' was the same design as the Hallmark logo you showed. Bassett advertised a lot of Hallmark watches. I wonder if Hallmark went beyond watches, and might have been some kind of distributor or jewelers co-op.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Hi Norman -

I am at 8 watches now recorded marked for Gaudette, and here is the serial numbers for these ...

Fall River, MA
1219763
1241352
1375025
1640397
1715830

Arctic Center, RI
1334144
1451491
1535963


There is some great info on the Hallmark watches here at this link ...

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=22514

Fred

p.s. Best of luck with the research! This is always interesting and can be a lot of fun if you can visit the places the watches came from ... especially if the buildings the jewelers used are still in existence.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks to all for the continued help with this project ... it is much appreciated!



Fred

 

[Norman Bliss]

Fred, thank you for managing this project. And for the Gaudette and Hallmark info. Just as I suspected for Hallmark. I keep forgetting to look in "the Gold Book".

Norman

 

[Norman Bliss]

Fred,

just looking up the grade & dates of the Gaudette watches is interesting. The five Fall River watches date from 1894 (2), 1897, 1902 & 1904, and are 15j Gr 65 (2), then 17j gr 65-E, 175 & 174. The Arctic Center watches are 1896 (mine), 11j gr 99, and two gr 173 15j, 1899 & 1900. It seems the Fall River store carried a higher grade of PL watch compared to the Arctic Center store. Pretty easy to guess which was the flagship store. Of course Fall River was a rich city. This is fun

Norman

 

[Fred Hansen]

Does anyone else have particular private-label Illinois watches they are following?

Fred

 

[Snide]

I ran accross a 16 size Illinois hunter, s/n 1561450 marked "Chas. Gilmore Kenton, O" on the movement and "Gilmore's" on the dial. Couldn't get a photo of it.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Hello, Here is a private label I just sold. It is pretty cool.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison

 

[Nigel Harrison]

The above watch post has 'Toledo's Special' on the dial and 'Made for John Prochaska Toldeo, O.' on the movement.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

 

[StanJS]

Fred,

Here is one: circa 1893 18s 16J Bunn Model #4 S/N 1178387

Movement: F P Fisk Epping, NH

(likely replacement) SS Roman OF Dial: "Illinois Watch Co."

I ran across another F P Fisk Illinois PL while searching the MB: Click Here

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Jim, Nigel, and Stan!

Before Jim's post I'd seen one other Illinois watch marked for Chas. Gilmore of Kenton, Ohio. It was also a hunting case Getty model but was a 17 jewel from about 1906, where Jim's serial looks up as an 11 jewel from about 1901.

With Nigel's post this now makes about 6 Illinois watches I've seen marked on the movement for John Prochaska and on the dial with Toledo's Special. These have all been from between about 1893 and 1896 by serial number and have included a few different 18 size grades and one 16 size grade 174.

Stan's post makes the 6th F.P. Fisk, Epping NH marked Illinois watch in my notes. The others have been lower to middle grade from about the 1886 to 1896 timeframe, and Stan's watch falls into this date range at about 1893 but as a 16 jewel Bunn is a much higher grade movement than any of the others I'd seen for Fisk. I would definitely agree that the dial described is very probably a replacement, I would expect this watch to have originally had a double-sunk glass enamel dial that most likely had a matched "F.P. Fisk, Epping N.H." marking.

Fred

 

[StanJS]

Fred,

Hold the phone on the 16J. I got excited and bought it because Russ Snyder's database said it is 16J. Of course, after I sent off a money order, I found John Cote's website and there he warns that it is more likely 17J.

I may have paid some "tuition" to learn about the finer points of Illinois watch collecting. When I get the watch in hand we'll "dissect" it.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Fred Hansen]

I definitely understand Stan and I've owned a number of watches in these runs ... and there is no way to know if it is a 16J or a 17J until you get under the dial and check for that jewel on the dial side of the center wheel pinion.

But of course these early 1890's era 17 jewel Bunns are great watches ... though they are not as scarce as the 16 jewel don't forget they are also a small step better for having that extra jewel.

Also is your watch a pendent-set or lever-set? Because pendent-set Bunns are were only made for a short while and are very tough to find, in either 16 or 17 jewel.

Fred

 

[StanJS]

Fred,

According to Russ' database, it should be pendant set. That is what the ad said. We'll see.

If I manipulated the database correctly, there were only a total of 400 Model 4 16J and 17J 18s Bunns made. When I get the watch, I'll start a thread on Model 4 Bunns. There is shockingly little information on same here. (Check your excellent pinned list of Illinois threads.) I searched every which way and came up dry. Collectively, we'll raise the education level for all.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Stan and a topic on model 4 Bunns would be great! I have a 16 jewel that I could post pics of when the thread is ready.

Fred

 

[4thdimension]

Fred, A couple of stray mvts. from the flea Sunday..
-233,471 "Prince Charlie" , also BBG&Co" logo on Balance bridge. No dial
-1,110,713 "Imperial Watch Co./ Chicago" on dial only. Gilt demascened mvt. signed Illinois.

I can't swear the last mvt was original to the dial but, at two bucks each, I don't think this seller switched anything!
-Cort

 

[Keith H]

Here's a couple of mine if of any use.
18s, Lambert Bros , Serial 1621124, 17j adjusted, model 5, barrel bridge marked in gilt:- Lambert Bros New York, 58th St and 3rd Ave . Open face, dss dial, marked Lambert Bros. New York, Roman Numerals, Arabic red 5 min markers .

18s, Lakeshore, serial 1895176, 17j Adjusted, Model 6, Movement marked Lakeshore, Adjusted, 17j. DSS Dial, marked Lakeshore, Roman Numerals, Arabic red 5 min markers .

16s, Plymouth Watch Co, Serial 1733440, Model5, Movement marked, Plymouth Watch Co,USA. 17j Adjusted. Multicolored (Pink, White,Gold) un-named dial with Black Arabic Numerals, Blue 5 Min Markers.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Cort and Keith, much appreciated!

Here is some info from my notes for each of these ...

Prince Charlie - With Cort's watch I have 5 of these now in my notes, and all are pretty similar in the 230-240 thousand serial range. I didn't note the extra balance cock lettering for any of the others, possible I could have missed it but probably more likely that Cort's watch is a little different. Illinois made many private-labels with interesting names in the 200K serial range, I would expect the total production for any of these individual names would be pretty low, and often many names look to be mixed in the same runs as one another.

Imperial Watch Co., Chicago - I hadn't recorded these since they are a dial only private-label, but I have seen others of these and all I remember match very well to what Cort describes ... dial only private-label on nice looking factory marked gilt damaskeen hunting case movements in the 1.0 and 1.1 million serial range.

Lambert Bros., New York - With Keith's watch I have about 20 of these now in my notes in different 16 and 18 size grades. This is a larger number than what I've seen for most jeweler names, and I believe Lambert Bros. must have contracted a decent number of watches from Illinois over the years. The watches I've seen have ranged in grades from some low jeweled unadjusted 16 and 18 size up to some top quality watches such as Bunn Special grade 18 size, and the dates of these watches have ranged from about 1890 to 1902 by serial number. Many are marked with the full address on the movement as Keith's is.

Lakeshore - This is a watch that I have recorded about 80 examples of in my notes with a date range from about 1898 to 1906, and these were advertised for sale by the Montgomery Ward & Company. Before the Lakeshore a very similar watch named the Lakeside was made. Earlier Lakeshores often have Illinois marked dials, but later on these watches seem to have come with dials marked "Lakeshore". These were made in large lots within runs (or at times likely made up the entire run), differing from lower production private-labels which were only made in small batches within run containing mostly watches mostly with other markings (factory or other private-label).

Plymouth Watch Co. - With Keith's watch I now have about 85 Plymouths in my notes in 16 and 18 size grades, produced between about 1904 and 1907. The Plymouths were advertised for sale by the Sears Roebuck & Company. These usually come with a dial marked "Plymouth Watch Co., USA" but I have also seen a number of others like Keith's that have unsigned fancy dials instead. Perhaps the unsigned fancy dial was an available option at a small extra cost, it would be nice to find some original advertising that showed this but the Plymouth ads reproduced in the Meggers Illinois book say very little about the dials. Like the above comment on the "Lakeshore", it seems that the Plymouths were also usually made in large batches.

Fred

 

[Dave Chaplain]

Here's another Gaudette:

Serial NoSizeJewelsOrientPlateFinishModelSettingAdjRegGradeMovement Markings
1,375,025 18 17 OFT6L T4PI Whip 65 Chas A Gaudette Fall River Mass 17 Jewels Adjusted Safety Pinion

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Hello,

Here are some more interesting Illinois P/L's I have pickup in the last few months.

This first one has a bit of an oxidised movement which is a shame but is still very nice. It is a Grade 65. Model 2 with Chalmers Regulator. It is marked Frank Price, Kansas City, Mo. The serial number is 1152043. I love the gothic lettering.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Here is the next one, it is interestingly labelled - The Edward B. Butler - and on the movement as - The Edward B. Butler. Special - the serial number is 1361942 it is a grade 175 model 4. This is the first time I have seen this style of damaskeening outside of the Pennsylvania Specials.

Regards, Nigel Harrison.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Here is a very nice quality grade 103. There were around 4,350 made in marked adjusted models and 3,250 in not marked adjusted but I just don't see hardly any of these around. The serial number is 320695 it is a Model 2 15J. It seems to have all the normal Illinois lettering on the movement to not be a private label but has the added insignia of what I think would be either Y.O & Co or O.Y & Co.

What are other peoples thoughts on this one? What does the lettering mean? I cannot find anything about this private label in the Meggers book. I am guessing the dial is not correct on this one as I believe it should be a DS one, do people agree? Very nice movement though.

Regards, Nigel Harrison.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Here is the next one. Serial 295969 it is a Grade 101S Model 2. 11 Jewels. Marked C.A. Clement - Springfield, MO on movement and dial.

Regards, Nigel Harrison.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Here is the next beauty, This is a two tone (first pattern) 17 Jewel Private Label. It is a Model 6 - marked Henn & Haynes Chillicothe O on the dial and movement. Serial Number is 1217917. In Meggars book it shows up in a run of Model 6 21J Bunn Specials so I think this is a Bunn model based on the solid gold fittings in the finish. The interesting thing is that the movement is marked with the words Adjusted To Heat, Cold and Position - I don't think I have seen another Illinois movement yet with those specific words. I wonder if this is one of the rarer 17J Bunn - Specially adjusted due to having two tone damaskeening and interesting adjusted wording. What are other peoples thoughts?

Regards, Nigel Harrison.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Dave and Nigel!

I posted some info about the Gaudette marked movements I'd seen a little earlier in the thread, but here is some info for Nigel's watches ...

#1152043 - Frank Place, Kansas City MO ... The 2-tone checkerboard grade 65 was a popular one for Illinois private-labels. Nigel's watch is from a run of 100 at serials 1152001-1152100 and this makes the 5th watch I have notes for now in this run, one of the others is marked just "Ozar" and three of the others are marked "Railroad King". I haven't seen any other Illinois watches marked for Frank Place of Kansas City MO but I have seen two Illinois (at 1.25 and 1.41 million serial numbers) marked for a Frank E. Place of Boston, Massachusetts ... and I'm not sure if there is any connection there or not.

1361942 - The Edward B. Butler Special ... I have notes for 14 of these watches, all 17 jewel grade 175 (but both hunting case and open face) and ranging in date from about 1896 to 1903. The dial on Nigel's watch is of course correct and I believe an important part of the watch. An original 1905 advertisement from the Butler Bros. of Chicago shows these watches, and this is reproduced in the Meggers Illinois book on page 296. As Nigel posted the damaskeen on the Edward B. Butler Special is similar to what was used on the higher jeweled "Pennsylvania Specials" made a few years later for H.M. Jacobsen of Philadelphia, but with the main difference being that the Pennsylvania Specials had a 2-tone gold inlay to the damaskeen.

320695 - (lettered monogram) ... The letter monogramed movements are an interesting class and seem to have been fairly popular as Illinois private-labels in the 1880's. I have notes for about 35 different monogramed movements below serial number 500,000 but as Nigel has pointed out it can be tough to interpret the order of the lettering on these. I don't think I'd seen another with YO&Co. or OY&Co., but of the 35 there are probably 15-20 different in my notes. I haven't been able to interpret who most of these are for. The Illinois grade 103 in both adjusted and unadjusted versions was popular for use with private-labels. Serial numbers 320001-320900 were all grade 103 movements in alternating runs of hunting case and open face models, and I have notes now for 13 private-labels in this serial range ... and all 13 are different markings from one another! I do agree with Nigel's thoughts on the dial, I think what is on the watch is likely 15 to 20 years more modern than the movement and that it originally would have had a double-sunk hard enamel dial with either Illinois or matched movement monogram markings.

295969 - C.A. Clement, Springfield MO This makes the first private-label I've recorded with this name, and also the first I've recorded for this run. So not much info I can give back ... and with the jeweler contract watches there are a lot like this in my notes that I only have a single recording on.

Fred

 

[Fred Hansen]

Looks like Nigel posted another nice one while I was typing!

1217917 - Henn & Haynes, Chillicothe OH ... I definitely agree with this one being a 17 jewel Bunn grade, and Russ Snyder's Illinois database has adjusted the info for this run to reflect this. The neat thing about this watch is the adjustment markings and the 2-tone damaskeen, and in my opinion both of these add to the desirability of the watch over a "regular" private-label 17 jewel Bunn. The usual damaskeen for a 17 jewel Bunn of this era is what is known as the "Circular" pattern, but some of the private-label Bunns of this era dressed up this pattern by adding 2-toning to this damaskeen. Also some private-label Bunns from this era had interesting variations on the Adjustment markings (most regular factory marked Bunns were simply marked "Adjusted"). The extra markings must have been specified by Henn & Haynes, and another 17 jewel Bunn grade with similar type markings was sold in 2006 at Jones-Horan auction and with permission here is a look at their photo ...

View attachment 1009

... and this one at serial 1235966 did not have the 2-tone added to the circular pattern but was marked "Special Adjusted to Heat, Cold, & Positions". I have notes for 4 watches marked for Henn & Haynes, the two Bunns in this thread and two lower grade 18 size.

Fred

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Hi Fred,

Thanks for all of your comprehensive info on these watches I just posted. It is very interesting, especially to know how many others have been sighted.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

 

[terofpa]

Fred:

Ed and I have the following in our data base:

1,605,486 18 24 Wash.LaFayette DS AN Adj, Dial: "Washington Watch Co.", Case: Inlayed Loco, S/N may be 1,166,486
1,606,480 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF Adj, Damaskeening Variation
1,606,486 18 24 Wash.LaFayette DS AN SB&B Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
1,619,945 16 19 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS RN OF LS
1,619,996 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/Sang Sang
1,621,544 18 19 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E HC Mvt HC Adj Mvt
1,694,097 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/Sang Sang DS AN G SB&B "Adj, 23RJ", Mod 5, Dial "Wash W Co",.Prod 70
1,704,105 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF Adj
1,704,420 16 19 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN G R5MT Display/HC LS, Pierced Breguet Hds, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
1,704,551 16 19 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN G SB&B LS, Adj, Golden Plate Scrs, Pierced Hds, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
1,704,670 18 24 Wash/Lafayette/BS BS DS RN HC LS, Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
1,704,680 18 24 Wash/Lafayette/BS BS HC Adj
1,747,913 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS RN SB&B
1,747,915 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS RN G HB&B Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co" in scripT, Case "M W & Co"
1,747,935 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SR Illinois Case
1,748,711 16 19 Wash.ArmY&Navy 176 DS AN HC LS, Adj, Dial & Mvt "Washington Watch Co."
1,749,800 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN HC Dial "Washington Watch Co"
1,832,007 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B
1,852,838 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF Adj
1,852,883 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF Adj
1,859,026 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS HC Adj
1,859,029 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS HC "Adj"
1,859,029 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN G HC BoxH Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
1,869,533 18 19 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E DS AN OF Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
1,869,987 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/Sang Sang DS AN SB&B Sangamo Grade, Prod 50, Mod 5
1,914,650 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS HC Adj
1,981,740 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN G SB&B LS, Adj, DR, Mvt & Dial "Washington Watch Co"
1,981,744 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B Dial "Wash Watch Co"
1,981,947 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS
2,024,179 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E DS RN SB&B Adj, Dial & Mvt: "Washington Watch Co."
2,024,272 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E SS AN SB&B LS, Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
2,024,909 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 Metal OF
2,024,909 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS RN SB&B LS
2,032,000 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E AN M HC Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,032,069 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65-E DS RN R5MT Adj
2,032,094 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS HC Adj
2,032,099 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN G HC Adj, Dial "Wahington Watch Co."
2,082,650 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 SS AN SR LS, Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,082,663 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN R5MT SB&B LS, Adj, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,098,030 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176? DS AN HC LS, AT&P, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,098,109 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176? DS AN SB&B
2,125,248 18 24 Wash.LaFayette BS OF "A6P"
2,125,248 18 24 Wash.LaFayette BS DS AN SB&B LS, AT&P, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,151,004 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN Display Adj, Prod 1,390
2,151,019 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS RN SB&B
2,151,564 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN G SB&B AT5P
2,202,199 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 SS AN SB&B AT&P, Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
2,202,231 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN M SB&B
2,235,327 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SB&B AT&P, Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,315,730 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SB&B
2,367,421 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SB&B
2,367,804 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF AT&P
2,367,815 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF AT&P
2,367,826 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF LS
2,406,927 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN SB&B A5P, Dial "Wahington Watch Co." Mod 5
2,406,927 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN G SB&B Dial "Wahington Watch Co." Mod 5
2,406,930 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 176 DS AN SR
2,424,985 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/Sang Sang HC Mvt LS, AT&P "23RJ", Mod 4
2,441,781 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SB&B Gold Inlay Loco on Case
2,470,639 16 23 Greenwich 770 DS AN HB&B LS, A6P, Diamond, Ruby & Sapphire Grade, GJS, GT, @F true Cent Brg, Mvt "Greenwich", Dial: "Washington Watch Co.", GJS, GT, LS, @F true Cent Brg.
2,542,819 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy DS AN G HC Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
2,543,326 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BSA BS DS AN G R5MT HB&B/HC LS, AT&P, DR "24 Ruby Jewels" Dial "Washington Watch Co." Baystate CASE w/Display Cuvette
2,592,203 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN SB&B LS, GCW, Not W W Co Dial
2,592,218 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/809 809 OF Mvt LS, AT&P, DR, Mod 9
2,592,218 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS OF Mvt LS, AT6P, DR, Mod 11
2,631,004 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 SS Display OF Mvt
2,631,096 18 24 Wash.Lafayette/BS BS DS AN G SB&B Mvt "Adjusted to Temperature and Positions" and "Double Roller" Ill book does not list this marking.
2,631,108 18 24 Wash.Lafayette/BS BS OF AT&P
2,631,138 18 24 Wash.Lafayette BS DS AN G OF Mvt Mvt "Adjusted to Temperature and Positions" and "Double Roller" Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,631,870 18 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
2,691,086 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS SR
2,769,003 16 21 WASH.Army & Navy DS AN SB&B LS, "Dial "Washington Watch Co."
2,769,147 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN SR LS, Dial: "Washington Watch Co"
2,769,220 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/BS Mod 9 DS RN R5MT SB&B AT&P, DR, GJS, GT, Gold Train, Dial: "Washington Watch Co" Low Stem Case
2,779,852 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SR AT5P
2,779,922 16 23 Wash.LaFayette/BS DS AN R5MT HC LS, AT&P, Gold Train, GJS, DR, Going Bbl, Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
2,779,967 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN HC Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
3,040,413 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B "Wash Watch Co" Dial
3,040,463 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN M G HB&B LS "AT6P, DR"
3,040,507 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 AT5P
3,094,994 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN HC LS, Dial: "Washington Watch Co."
3,139,968 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SR LS, AT5P, Dial "Washington Watch Co." Gold Loco Inlay on Case
3,139,970 18 21 Wash.Army & Navy 65 DS AN SR
3,145,235 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN SB&B
3,312,277 16 23 Wash.Greenwich,DR&S 710 DS AN SB&B Grade 770, Prod 50
3,312,402 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN SB&B LS, Adj, Gold Train
3,312,420 16 23 Wash.Lafayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B A6P", Model 11 w. mtr bbl
3,312,767 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B Mvt: "Adjusted To Temperature And Positions Six", Case changed since 11/92
3,377,305 16 21 Wash.Army & Navy 806 DS AN SR "A5P", Dial 'Wash Watch Co.
3,377,359 16 23 Wash.Greenwich,DR&S 710 DS AN A6P, DR, Mvt "Dia R & S, Greenwich", Dial "Washinton Watch Co"
3,377,372 16 23 Wash.Greenwich,DR&S 710 DS AN HB&B A6P, DR, Mvt "Dia R & S, Greenwich", Dial "Washinton Watch Co"
3,385,416 16 23 Wash.Lafayette/BS BS OF
3,392,890 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS DS AN SB&B "A6P, DR"
3,392,897 18 24 Wash.LaFayette/BS BS SB&B "A6P, DR", GJS

Kent,

I was looking through your list for consecutive numbers but I didn't find any. I did find several repeat numbers though.

ter

 

[Kent]

ter:

I'm not sure if there is a question in your post.

However, Ed and I, in choosing to enter data or not, have long ago adopted conventions (rules of thumb). We'll list a watch more than once if:

If a watch is offered by the same seller at a significantly different price (meaning it didn't sell at the higher price - or that the seller thought that he/she asked too low of a price and increased it).

If there was a difference in the description. This could be that a case or dial got changed, or a missing part was replaced, or we learned more about the watch (that it was pendant-set, or an additional marking was on the plate).

If it was offered by a different seller, or reported by a different source.

If we just made a mistake and entered it twice.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Hi Fred,

Just out of interest, what is the earliest serial private label that you have recorded. Since I have a keen interest in the realy early Illinois watches. Hopefully it is easy for you to sort by SN, if you cannot you can disregard my question.

Thanks and Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

 

[Dave Chaplain]

Hi Nigel,

Fred probably has or has recorded earlier ones, but I have sn 2694 which is a Stuart grade PL (movement & dial marked) for Larmour & Co. of Baltimore, Maryland.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Wow that is early! I am surprised. Thanks very much for the info Dave.

Regards, Nigel Harrison.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Good question Nigel and Dave's watch is actually the second lowest private-label in my notes, with one lower at serial 2262 which is a Bunn grade marked for C.E. Gifford of Fall River, MA.

So I don't have any private-labels noted in the first 2000 serial numbers ... definitely not to say they can't exist but I haven't seen one yet.

It seems like the jeweler contract marked watches started early on for Illinois and then picked up until a peak in the mid-1890's and then fell off pretty quickly after the first few years of the 1900's and by the mid 1910's the jeweler contract marked watches were much less common than in earlier years. By the later company history of the 1920's the private-label Illinois much more often take the form of named watches such as ... "Time King", "Belmont", "Rockland", "Stewart", "Capitol", and many other one and two word names.

Fred

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Hello,

Here is another private label by Montgomery Ward - 21J Timer. From a completed ebay auction. The serial number is 1377770

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350116516764

I believe this is a grade 61.

Should this watch have 'Montgomery Ward & Co' text on the dial or is the dial pictured acceptable as well for the orginal sale from Montgomery & Ward? I think the dial on it looks about right for a factory Illinois Watch Co branded Grade 61 movement. Would a DS dial be expected on this due to it being a 21 Jewel?

What are peoples thoughts?

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

 

[Kent]

Nigel:

Other grade No. 61 Montgomery Ward "21 Jewel Timer" watches listed in our data base (serial numbers 1,377,782 & 1,378,710) have "Montgomey Ward & Co." signed on double-sunk dials.

 

[Nigel Harrison]

Nigel:

Other grade No. 61 Montgomery Ward "21 Jewel Timer" watches listed in our data base (serial numbers 1,377,782 & 1,378,710) have "Montgomey Ward & Co." signed on double-sunk dials.

OK, Thanks Kent. Since there is only two others to compare to, did any other Monty Ward watches come with Illinois labelled dials? I just can't remember for sure off the top of my head.

Thanks and Regards, Nigel Harrison