(Illinois) Private Label Research

[Fred Hansen]

I've been recording data on Illinois Watch Co. private-labels for a few years now and want to ask here for help with this project.

I'm interested in the markings and serial numbers of all 16 and 18 size Illinois with anything different than the usual Illinois factory markings on the movement. I'm also interested in the dial markings for these watches.

Since this is a large-scale project, to keep from being overwhelmed there are a few types of Illinois private-labels I'm not recording. These are ...

- Watches marked with a private-label on just the dial

- Santa Fe or Burlington Watch Co. marked watches (*** with one exception, I am interested in Burlingtons signed "21 Ruby Jewels")

- 12 size and smaller watches


All others are of interest and any info is much appreciated, either posted here or sent to me by email at fhansen21@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance!!!

Fred

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
Another private label Illinois you
may be interested in:
Movement: 18 size HN 2L 13 Jewel
(marked 13 Jewel on the barrel
bridge) 12 and 13 jewels on the
on the center wheel. Have you
ever seen this 13 jeweling
configuration before.?
Movement also Marked,C.E Searl
Merrill,Wis> Ser#1247347 Grade 99.
Dial:biggrin:SGERN Marked C.E.Searl.

bernie

 

[ron schneider]

fred how about sears watches

 

[HenryB]

Saved this for you Fred.

Movement-ADJUSTED, 21 RUBY JEWELS, 1299515, SAFETY PINION, SOUTHERN RAILROAD SPECIAL"
1299515

Dial-CASTLEBERG'S NATIONAL JEWELRY COMPANY - WASHINGTON D.C .


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4901090560&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Auctions over, and Reserve price NOT met

 

[Fred Hansen]

Bernie -

Very interesting watch and thanks for sharing it.

I do not think I have heard of nor seen any 13J watch with this jeweling configuration or marked as to jewel count. The closest thing that comes to mind is a 16 size private-label Getty model that passed through eBay some time back and was marked "12 jewel" and was jeweled on the upper side of the center wheel. Will check my notes this evening and post what that was, from memory I believe the jeweler it was marked for was out of New York state.

Doc Ron -

Yes. Of course the early RW Sears marked watches are much more interesting and significant to me than the common mid-grades of the 1890's, but I am recording each.

Henry -

Thanks for the link ... I already had this one but much appreciate your interest and passing this along. I have also seen this Southern RR Special marking in the 18 size HC 21J Bunn Special, an 18 size 17J HC grade 65, and a 16 size HC grade 175. They are an interesting watch and I believe (and have always heard) that the Castleberg's dial is correct to them.

I think I catch most of what passes through eBay, but if there is a watch that is not well listed (one day auction, out of category, in a lot with multiple others, etc.) then there is a much better chance that I will not have seen it. Either way though better to get an email for one I have already seen than to miss it!

Fred

 

[Jon Hanson]

another "No. 65" 17J OF #2462745 TT

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
A few more private label Illinois watch
That I don't recall seeing mentioned.
I hope these are helpful to you

16 size
_______
#1152787 Grade 114 Mvmt and dial marked
Menger Bros. and Wagner, Balt, Md.
#1043899 Grade 113 Mvmt only marked
Schmidt & Feinstein,Lebanon, Pa.
#1167589 Grade 112 mvmt and dial marked
Geo O. Warren, Scaymore, Ill.
#1049550 Grade ll6 16 j Marked Adjusted.
Dial only marked Proctor Bros.,Iowa
Falls,Ia. double sunk log numerals.

bernie

 

[Fred Hansen]

Jon -

Much appreciated. Will put a post to 149 in the next few minutes on what I have in the vicinity of the numbers you posted there.

Bernie -

Thank you again. One question though ... I had a grade 113 Schmidt & Feinstein in my notes at 1045899 as listed to eBay in February. Could this be the same watch and one of us have the 4th digit incorrect? Thanks again,

Fred

 

[Jon Hanson]

FH,

Have many more which I shall post on the 149 MB as time permits or after a BV visit!

JH

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,

1043899 Schmidt & Feinstein is the some as found on ebay.I have tried not to post duplications.
The following 16 size getty model private labels watches I don't recall seeing on ebay or in Meggers book section on private labels.

16 size:
#1609004 15J grade 173 model 4 mvmt and dial marked Ben Schneider
Jewerlery Co. Cincinnati, Ohio.
#1302776 17J Grade 174 model Mvmt and dial marked R.Pinkstone,
Philadelphia,Pa.
#1301263 11J grade 171 Mvmt and dial marked A.W.& H>A> Reieman
McKeesport,Pa.
Any specifics on respective dials or damaskeen patterns I Will be
happy to answer on request

16 size Stewart Special:
I know you have Stewart Specials However I would like to know
I any one has seen a 16 size Stewart Special with a double sunk
dial marked in the center Illinois Stewart Special, and 19 Jewels adjusted in
the center sunk area marked just above the second hands dial curved
around the top of the second hands dial.

bernie

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
A few more for PL data base That I have not
seen before.

18 size:

#1233244 15J Grade 65 model 6 marked adjusted.
Mvmt and dial marked Frank J. Voirol,
Ft, Wayne Ind.
This next one I discussed with Bill Meggers
a decade or more ago . So its possible Russ
has recorded this from Bill's data base.
#1051455 15J grade 65-S Model 4 (Pendant set)
marked Keystone Watch Case Co. Checkerboard
T.T. pattern. The Jewel settings maybe gold
I never had them tested.
Dial is double sunk fancy G.E fancy roman
numerals marked in old english K.K.C.Co.

bernie

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
Sorry I made a mistake on Keystone Watch
case Co. Dial the initials are KWCCo.

bernie

 

[Jon Hanson]

I listed one like BL's on the 149 MB!

 

[Jon Hanson]

"S R & Co./Special/Chicago,U.S.A." nickel, OF, 17J, adjusted, #1709505, DS matching Arabic upright numerials dial.

 

[JP]

Hi Fred,
Sorry I don't own many PL but here is one that might interest you. Dial is marked "C. Wm. Stentzel Brooklyn" DS, RN with red 5 minute markers. Movement is SN# 1252406 marked "The President", 17 Jewels, Adjusted, Illinois Watch Co., Springfield, Chalmers 12.19.82. The cas has the Initials "CWS" and has a photo copied on the back dust cover.I noticed that the Illinois book lists an Stentzel & Son, C. Wm. (Ca 1915) Since the serial number on this watch is approximately 1894 could the picture of this beautiful young lady be Mrs. Stentzel?
John Perez

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Fred,

As I recall, I passed along info on a number of private label Illinois mvts to Russ Snyder some time ago. Do you have access to Russ' data?

 

[Fred Hansen]

JP -

Hard to say, without contacting the family I don't know how you could really go about finding out for sure. Either way the photo has a long-standing connection to the watch and is a part of it's history ... nice to see that it has been left as it is and not destroyed.

Before your watch, I was aware of three different 18 size Illinois with "President" markings. These are ...

"President, NY", grade 103, about 1880
"President", grade 103, about 1880 (one of these was pictured here on the MB just last week)
"The President", grade 65, mid-1890's

... and of these your watch (grade 61) sounds very similar to the grade 65's I have seen and is only a few thousand serial numbers away.

Greg -

Russ sent me a good amount of data and any of the watches pictured in the IL database I will have, but I am not sure if yours were there with it. Anything you would have posted here, to the 149 board, or to VP Tom McIntyre's board I also will probably already have. When you have the chance and if you are willing to send a few along again, I can check and see if I have them recorded. Thanks and hope to make and see you at the Denver regional this year!

Fred

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

#301794-R. H. Trask, Ottawa, Ill.
#1239743-H. G. & J. E. Wagner (missing barrel bridge)

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Greg.

Had both of those, but did not have the missing barrel bridge noted for the second number.

Fred

 

[Tom Huber]

Fred, Have seen and logged the following two 18S dials to fit a model 6:

E. N. Wehrle Punxsutawney, PA (yes, the home of the infamous groundhog), SS bold arabic dial.

Frisch Bros, Buffalo, NY, SS, RN dial.

Also have 16 size model 5, sn 1,966,498. Dial is SS, arabic labeled Carl Rivinius, Ebensburg, Penna.

Tom

 

[4thdimension]

A pal had this one for sale at the De Anza
mart today.
#2610735 T. Lundy / San Francisco
on mv't only- Illinois dial
-Cort

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Cort -

Have recorded two other PL in this run ... a Hunn Watch Co., Detroit ("Hunn Special" DS dial) at 2610708 and Geo E. Bisanar, Hickory NY (DS plain/unsigned dial) at 2610749.

I find it interesting how often I am seeing these jeweler contract watches in very close serial proximity but with different names. Looks like the batches for a given jeweler within the run really were often very small.

Also have a "T. Lundy" serial number that was given to me for a private-label 21J Sangamo Special grade at about this same time. Don't think I've seen a Sangamo Special PL other than this ...

Fred

 

[Fred Hansen]

Tom -

Was the model 5 you gave a serial number for marked on the movement as well, or was it a dial-only PL marking?

Thanks,
Fred

 

[Tom Huber]

Fred, For the model 5, the PL marking was for the dial only. I bought the watch because I have worked in the town of Ebensburg, PA for over 30 years. Now, I have since begun to do some research on the jeweler, Carl Rivinius. I have talked with his grandaughter, and know the location of the old store which was in business from 1880 till 1962. Now to get time to get to the historical society for more research.

Tom

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
Thanks again for continuing to develop your private label data base. It is very helpful to me.

I am not sure I previously posted the two following
p.l. grade 65E Ill movements and dials.
In case I failed to do so here they are:
(1) #1233244 15j 18 size marked Adj model 6 movement and dial
marked Frank J. Viorol, Ft. Wayne, Ind.
(2) #1203540 15j 18 size marked Adj to heat and cold and
position (not positions) model 6 movement and
dial marked F, H. Hopkins & Co. Chillicothe, Ohio.

 

[bernie levine]

Fred,
Do you show any other gr65's in the serial
range #1203,501-1203600. Ill book does not
show a model 6 as my previous #1203540. There
apparently is some discrepancy... it lists only
lever set and also model 4.I guess it should
now list L&P 3,4,6 in range #1203501-1203600?

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Bernie!

I unfortunately do not have anything noted in the same 100 block as the F.H. Hopkins.

Near to the Frank Voirol I have 1233210 noted as marked for W.D. Heath, Lakeport NH and 1233274 noted as marked for A.E. Rogers, Scranton PA but do not have model info for these.

I have noticed intermixing of models 3, 4, and 6 among other blocks of grade 65 though ... and wonder if there was any organization by serial number to this or if it is almost random within the run? Sure makes it difficult to come up with accurate production figure estimates by model ...

Fred

 

[brg404]

Another private label Illinois:

18s Illinois nickel 5th pinion with Chalmer's
regulator serial number 273338. W. Richmond
on plate, Mt Morris NY on mainspring bridge.
W. Richmond on dial

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks all for the continued help!

I am still recording these so all contributions are welcome and much appreciated.

Fred

 

[4thdimension]

#1970481- "Landis Watch Co." on mv't, "Landis" on the dial
#1996740-"August Loch/ Pittsburgh" on dial only
12s htg.

I saw these at the flea today. both were missing stuff and I didn't buy them. Still, for the record...

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Cort!

The Landis Watch Co. marked watches are interesting, and are sometimes found with military names marked on the movement as well. In my notes I have recorded those marked as "Colonel", "General", "Liuetenant", "Major", and "Captain". None of these seem common, but I've seen more of the "Colonel" than the others.

Fred

 

[Tom Huber]

Fred, I have a model 5 marked "The General". I got mine as a scrap movement without a dial and restored it. Would this have had a Landis Watch Co dial on it as original?

Tom

 

[GD1]

16 size open face Grade 179, 21 Ruby jewels serial number 1302265. 999 on dial, John A. Miller Cairo, Ill. on movement. 2. 16 size open face, serial number 1419465, three finger bridge, 17 ruby jewels on movement, unmarked otherwise, dial marked John A. Miller Cairo, Ill.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Tom - I have seen a few 15 jewel Getty models signed "The General" on the movement and these have also had double-sunk dials signed "The General". The serial numbers of these watches have placed them at about the 1898-1900 range, while the Landis movements I've seen have been a bit later running between about the 1905-1910 era. So I am not sure if there is any relation between these.

GD - Great pair of John A. Miller watches! The grade 179 has always been one of my favorite Illinois watches, and I've seen more of these with private-label markings then without. Also it seems that John A. Miller had very good taste in Illinois watches, as I've seen a 2-tone 24 jewel Bunn Special marked for Miller (damaskeen very similar to that on the 24J Chesapeake & Ohio).

Fred

 

[GD1]

I also have a John A. Miller that is a South bend 15 jewels 18 size. Marked on dial and movement if you know anyone that is keeping records on S. Bend private labels.

 

[Tom Huber]

Hi Fred, Thanks for the info on "The General".

Tom

 

[LStratton]

GD

I sure would appreciate the serial number from your
John A. Miller 18s South Bend private label. Also is the dial SS or DS ----RN or AN?
Thank you
LStratton

 

[GD1]

456986. 17 jewels open face, lever set, ss dial, arabic, marked JNO. A. Miller Cairo, Ill. on dial and movement. Also have another South Bend marked on dial C. Burkhardt Special which was a jeweler in Cairo, Ill. 16 size, open face stem set, marked South Bend Watch Co. 15 jewels on movement, serial number 473001. SS dial, roman numerals.

 

[Fred Hansen]

Anyone with photos of Illinois private-labels please feel free and post here, I would enjoy seeing these!

Here are a few I like ...

[plain]http://images1.snapfish.com/346%3B37%3A45%7Ffp7%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D3232%3C%3A%3C96979%3Bnu0mrj

http://images1.snapfish.com/346%3B37%3A45%7Ffp63%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B%3B%3B%3A5%3A6%3B7ot1lsi

http://images1.snapfish.com/346%3B37%3A45%7Ffp64%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323%3B%3B%3B%3A5%3A6%3B%3Aot1lsi
[/plain]
Serial #1204659 ... dial marked "Geo. W. Huggins, Wilmington N.C.", movement marked "Atlantic Coast Line, Special"

Fred

 

[Fred Hansen]

[plain]http://images1.snapfish.com/346%3B37%3A79%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323475%3A47454ot1lsi

http://images1.snapfish.com/346%3B37%3A79%7Ffp45%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D585%3D%3B3%3B%3DXROQDF%3E2323475%3A47458ot1lsi
[/plain]
Serial #1318446 ... dial and movement marked for R. Harris & Company, Washington D.C.

Fred

 

[Kent]

Very nice Fred!

Thanks,

 

[denniscsg]

I have a 23j 16s model 4 174B hunter case, any info on this watch would be appreciated the movement is marked CONLIKN'S SPECIAL

 

[Fred Hansen]

I have seen 18 and 16 size Illinois signed "Conklin's Special". The 18 size was a grade 69, but I do not remember the grade of the 16 size though I am pretty sure it was a 17 jewel and I don't think it was a 174-B.

The 23J grade 174-B is a very scarce watch, and I would be interested in the serial number of yours and would enjoy seeing a photo if possible.

Fred

 

[denniscsg]

serial # 1,313,960 I was also told it is a model 4 grade174-B and was a Getty and factory Hunter cased

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks for the info and congrats on owning a great watch!

The grade 174-B is a hunting case model watch (winds at 3 O'clock position), and would have been cased at the customer's request by the jeweler who sold the movement.

The Getty name refers to the model of the watch ... which is a design with only one winding wheel visible.

A few hundred 23 jewel movements were made in the 3/4 plate Getty model grade 174, but only 10 each were made of 23 jewel open face and hunting case in the 3 finger bridge sister grade of 174-B. So the 23J grade 174 is not a common watch, but far easier to find than the 23J grade 174-B!

The serial number of your movement would date it to about 1896.

If possible I would still be very interested in seeing a photo of your rare watch, either posted here or by email at fhansen21@yahoo.com

Fred

 

[denniscsg]

I will when I get a chance email or post pictures and thank you for your help, I have also confirmed the same things you said with another person and they also told me that the serial # 1,313,951 thru 1,313,960 were the 10 made, making mine the last one in the run.Thanks again ....Dennis

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Dennis, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing it when you have the chance.

Fred

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

18S, 17J, SN 1249138, movement and dial both marked "Charles R. Blake", "Marion, Ind."

 

[Fred Hansen]

Thanks Dave ... that is a name I hadn't seen before, and also from a run (1249001-1249200) I did not have any other private-labels yet noted in.

Fred

 

[Fred Hansen]

21 jewel Washington Watch Co. "Army and Navy" serial #2441781 ...

[plain]http://images1.snapfish.com/347349%3B58%7Ffp33%3A%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D32338394%3C7%3A%3B5nu0mrj

http://images1.snapfish.com/347349%3B58%7Ffp346%3Enu%3D3239%3E494%3E%3A4%3A%3EWSNRCG%3D32338394%3C578%3Bnu0mrj
[/plain]
From what I've seen the early "Army and Navy" movements were 19 jewel but these were changed to 21 jewel just before 2 million serial number in 16 size and at just past 2 million serial number in 18 size. The adjustment markings on these watches also changed several times from earlier to later production.

I am interested in data on all 16 and 18 size Washington Watch Co. movements, anyone have a serial number to report?

Fred