Identifying Vienna regulator wall clock

dw2007uk

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I've got a Vienna regulator wall clock, which I recently got up and running again (thanks partly to the advice I got from people on this forum!).

I was wondering if anyone could help me identify the make and age of it. I can't find any maker's names or stamps anywhere on the movement or clock, unfortunately. There is however a serial number on both the front and back plates - that number is 48785.

Photos of the clock and its movement are supplied below:

http://www.henryandjoey.co.uk/images/vienna0.jpg
http://www.henryandjoey.co.uk/images/vienna1.jpg
http://www.henryandjoey.co.uk/images/vienna2.jpg
http://www.henryandjoey.co.uk/images/vienna3.jpg

Thanks.:)
 

Scottie-TX

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I'd guesstimate early fourth quarter - 1870 -1880.
It still has the long slender plain sort of style common to earlier ones but the addition of twisted columns and finials makes it a little later.
Alas many of these have no known maker - movement or case.
Very elegant indeed. I know yer proud of it.
 

dw2007uk

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Thanks for that!

The clock is still running fine (although I had to do some more tinkering with it to get it to work properly).

This probably doesn't really belong in this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one... but does the vertical position of the weight (i.e. the amount of time since it was last wound up) affect the accuracy of the clock? I know clocks with springs tend to gain more when they're fully wound compared to when they need winding, but I didn't think this applied to weight-driven clocks.

The reason I ask is that a few days ago, I adjusted the pendulum so I got the clock within an accuracy of +2 seconds per day. I wound it up yesterday evening and it's gained about 5 seconds since then, suggesting an accuracy of about +8 seconds per day since I wound it up.

I'm more than happy with an accuracy of a matter of seconds per day by the way - I'm just intrigued about the mechanics at work here!

Thanks. :D
 

harold bain

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The amount of error in timekeeping could be caused by changes in temperature, or barometric pressure. Although the weight becomes heavier as it unwinds due to adding the cord's weight, this shouldn't really have a noticable effect.
 

Kim St.Dennis Sr.

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I own a pewter inlaid Vienna Regulator case similar to yours with the Barley Twist columns. One of the old timers told me that Vienna cases with these Barley Twist columns were made for the British market. I have not been able to independently verify that information.
The movement appears to be late 19th Century, say 1880 to 1900. I have picked a couple of these over the years at our local Regionals and I am pretty sure they were manufactured in Germany.
 

Scottie-TX

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They are indeed fascinating - their simplicity for me I guess.
I do note that yours has motion maintenance. Is that functional - working properly? Error can occur during winding. Motion mtce. attempts to eliminate winding error. Error could also be induced a number of other ways. I always place my one hand on the base and press solidly against the wall while winding. This prevents changing the clock's position on the wall and that WILL affect accuracy as it affects beat.
I note also yours is seatboard mounted. Unlike bayonet or post mounts, if seatboard is not snug in brackets, then seatboard can shift slightly during winding, again changing the beat. So that is an additional word to you about being careful not to shift the movement on it's mount during winding. I know it sounds silly but I try to use a smooth, rhythmic motion when winding - like drawing circles on a piece of paper. Jerky winding is also more apt to move case or movement.
 
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soaringjoy

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I would also presume the clock is German, but as to
an ID of the movement... oh well!

Scottie, smooth winding isn't silly at all, and even essential
on spring driven clocks, if you'd ask me.;)

Jurgen
 

Albra

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Greetings all,

yes, I think, this clock is German and not Austrian.

The maker I assume was Gebr. Jung. (in the "Lexikon" you will find some information about this very unknown German clock factory. It was founded in the 1840ies and closed in the 1880ies.)

Unfortunately we know, that Gebr. Jung didn´t mark their clocks, but we know several clocks in the region, this clockfactory was. Several years ago I repaired one of these very fine weight driven Viennas. And this clock is very similar the clock I repaired.

Congrats, a very interesting vienna!

regards!

Albra
 

dw2007uk

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Thanks to everyone for the extra info, about the clock and also about what affects its accuracy!

Albra;547301 said:
The maker I assume was Gebr. Jung.
Does anyone know if Gebr. Jung. stands for anything, or is that the full name? I Googled it but found very little, which isn't surprising if it's so unknown.

Scottie-TX;547133 said:
I do note that yours has motion maintenance. Is that functional - working properly? Error can occur during winding. Motion mtce. attempts to eliminate winding error.
How do you know mine has motion maintenance? What does it look like? (Sorry for being a bit dim!) I'm not aware of it having motion maintenance. When I wind the clock up, it temporarily stalls as I'm winding - should it eliminate that if it's working properly?
 

zepernick

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dw2007uk;548191 said:
Does anyone know if Gebr. Jung. stands for anything, or is that the full name? I Googled it but found very little, which isn't surprising if it's so unknown.
DW --

"Gebr." is the German equivalent of the English "Bros." (i.e. "brothers"). And "Gebr. Jung" is the short form of one of several names, Uhrenfabrik Gebr. Jung & Co., of a clock factory that was located in Deuz, and existed from about 1862 to around 1890.

What information there is about the firm has been gathered together in the standard reference to the German clockmaking industry, Hans-Heinrich Schmid's (2005) Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980. The entry for Gebr. Jung takes up a page and a half of the Lexikon's 675 pages.

So, that little is known of the firm is relative :). But it's not available through Google nor is it in English. Then too, as is the case with so many of the hundreds of German firms from this period, we don't have catalogue material which might help to identify a particular movement or case.

Like the twisties.

Regards
Zepernick
 

svenedin

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DW, Sorry to hijack your thread but I see Scottie has said a bit about accuracy and case stability on the wall. Nice clock by the way!

How do I reducue the "wobble" of the pendulum in my Vienna. By this I mean reducing the tendency of the pendulum to swing in an elipse. With a long case clock I solved this by screwing a piece of wood to the wall and then screwing the clock to the wood (luckily there were holes in the backboard already). I can't do this with the Vienna but it does have stabilisers fitted. Might the pendulum wobble be caused by a faulty, or incorrect, suspension spring as well? Mine has one of the 2 thin metal springs between brass plates type.
 

new2clocks

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svenedin;548292 said:
DW, Sorry to hijack your thread but I see Scottie has said a bit about accuracy and case stability on the wall. Nice clock by the way!

How do I reducue the "wobble" of the pendulum in my Vienna. By this I mean reducing the tendency of the pendulum to swing in an elipse. With a long case clock I solved this by screwing a piece of wood to the wall and then screwing the clock to the wood (luckily there were holes in the backboard already). I can't do this with the Vienna but it does have stabilisers fitted. Might the pendulum wobble be caused by a faulty, or incorrect, suspension spring as well? Mine has one of the 2 thin metal springs between brass plates type.
SV,

I have a similar situation with a wobbly pendulum and an arc / elipse swing of the pendulum on a Lenzkirch weight driven Vienna style regulator. I requested assistance from this board in the Clock Repair section and received some sound advice, not the least of which came from Scottie.

In the end, however, I had to take the clock to not one but two different clock repairman. Neither one could fix the elipse issue. All of the advice given to me in this site was followed by the repairmen - a new suspension spring, placement of the movement in the seatboard mounting, etc. They also broke down the movement, cleaned oiled, replaced bushings where needed - and I still have the elipse swing. Although I do not keep records of the changes in timekeeping speeds, even with the elipse swing, the clock in in sync with the time on my computer.

With respect to the wobble, it occurs only when I start the pendulum and lasts maybe a minute, then the wobble ceases.

I am not sure if this is the answer you are looking for, but at least you now know that an elipse swing can still produce accurate time keeping and you can enjoy the clock.

Regards.
 

Scottie-TX

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How do you know mine has motion maintenance? What does it look like? (Sorry for being a bit dim!) I'm not aware of it having motion maintenance. When I wind the clock up, it temporarily stalls as I'm winding - should it eliminate that if it's working properly?
Yes. Working properly, motion maintence provides power during the time you are lifting the weight. I know yours has or should have motion maintenance because of the pivot hole, far left, center. A pawl should be in that location and it should extend to and rest on an external ratchet of the winding drum. When you first hang the weight, that ratchet will move two or three teeth and held by the pawl, there storing power. 89798.jpg
 

dw2007uk

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zepernick;548199 said:
DW --

"Gebr." is the German equivalent of the English "Bros." (i.e. "brothers"). And "Gebr. Jung" is the short form of one of several names, Uhrenfabrik Gebr. Jung & Co., of a clock factory that was located in Deuz, and existed from about 1862 to around 1890.

What information there is about the firm has been gathered together in the standard reference to the German clockmaking industry, Hans-Heinrich Schmid's (2005) Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980. The entry for Gebr. Jung takes up a page and a half of the Lexikon's 675 pages.

So, that little is known of the firm is relative :). But it's not available through Google nor is it in English. Then too, as is the case with so many of the hundreds of German firms from this period, we don't have catalogue material which might help to identify a particular movement or case.

Like the twisties.

Regards
Zepernick
Thanks for the info! ;)

Scottie-TX;548853 said:
Yes. Working properly, motion maintence provides power during the time you are lifting the weight. I know yours has or should have motion maintenance because of the pivot hole, far left, center. A pawl should be in that location and it should extend to and rest on an external ratchet of the winding drum. When you first hang the weight, that ratchet will move two or three teeth and held by the pawl, there storing power.
Thank you for explaining! :) When I was replacing the spring for the click on the winding drum, I noticed a bit where a piece of metal had obviously come away, but it didn't affect the winding or running of the clock when I put it all back together, so I assumed all was well. I assume the piece of metal that had come away was something to do with the external ratchet of the winding drum.

Is it a major problem that the motion maintenance doesn't work, in terms of the quality and future longevity of the clock mechanism? Is it a feature that all Vienna regulators have?

Obviously I'm happy that I've got the clock running well, so it doesn't bother me too much that the motion maintenance isn't functioning properly.
-> posts merged by system <-
I've just found this via Google - http://www.clockguy.com/SiteRelated/SiteReferencePages/JunghansHistory.html

I wonder if "Gebr Junghans Uhrenfabrik" is the same as "Uhrenfabrik Gebr. Jung & Co.", with the "Jung" being short for "Junghans"?
 

Scottie-TX

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Is it a major problem that the motion maintenance doesn't work, in terms of the quality and future longevity of the clock mechanism? Is it a feature that all Vienna regulators have?
No. It is no problem at all. Clock will run fine without it. Many do not have it. This is a feature of higher quality movements where they perhaps wanted to provide better accuracy.
There is a good probability that the missing or broken part is the remains of a broken pin on the distal end of the click spring. This pin will extend thru a hole in the drum and index the motion maintenance ratchet. 89989.jpg 89990.jpg
 
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dw2007uk

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With regards to the "motion maintenance" thing, I've noticed something that happens when winding the clock. I can wind the weight up by a certain amount (probably 3 or 4 inches) and the clock continues to run fine. But any further than that, and it stops while ticking while I'm winding it.

So, is motion maintenance supposed to only keep the clock running for a small amount of winding, or is it supposed to keep the clock going for a substantial (or full) winding?
 

Scottie-TX

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I haven't measured maintenance duration recently but expect it should provide power for perhaps a minute or longer. It certainly should provide power for the length of time needed to lift the weight - perhaps less than 15 secs.
Test it. Remove weight and observe how long it will run. It may be that weight isn't heavy enough to fully load the storage. When you replace the weight, notice how far the maintenance ratchet moves - one tooth? More than one tooth? Pull down gently on weight. Does ratchet move further?
 

gocush

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tarant;547297 said:
I have very, very similar one, in oak finish...

View attachment 5157

View attachment 5158

View attachment 5159
Thanks Tarant for these photos. I have the same clock in a different wood and a serial number 21431. I'm now servicing it and I'd like to get a copy or have someone send me a clear photo of the page and a half dedicated to Gebruder Jung in the Lexikon, as mentioned by Zepernick, who has now passed away:


"Gebr." is the German equivalent of the English "Bros." (i.e. "brothers"). And "Gebr. Jung" is the short form of one of several names, Uhrenfabrik Gebr. Jung & Co., of a clock factory that was located in Deuz, and existed from about 1862 to around 1890.

What information there is about the firm has been gathered together in the standard reference to the German clockmaking industry, Hans-Heinrich Schmid's (2005) Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980. The entry for Gebr. Jung takes up a page and a half of the Lexikon's 675 pages. " Zepernick

If someone has this reference and could send me a PM with digital photo of those 2 pages, I would be greatful.

Does anyone know the approx. number of movements in this series that were made?

Thanks in advance.
 

tarant

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Sad news. Recent research done by KMZiZ Forum colleague janekp in Germany (May - June 2017) indicates that clocks produced by Gebruder Jung were completely different. This producer (of almost 80000 clocks) is anonymous again. For a short time, I hope.
 

tarant

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Quality is much better than true Gebr. Jung clocks ;)
 

gocush

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I want to replace the weight cable, looking to see what my options are. The current one is braided? metal covered with a plastic coating which is cracking from age? (brittleness).

The overall thickness is 0.6 mm with the plastic. I find that dimension in braided brass (apparently no coating) at Merritts. Is that what I should be using for a replacement?
 

leeinv66

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Vienna Regulators used gut line original. I suggest you use a quality synthetic gut or braided fishing line of approx 50lb breaking strain. Stay away from brass cable as it can damage/wear the winding drums and pulleys.
 

John Hubby

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I completely agree with Peter to totally avoid brass cable for the reasons he stated.

I have been using synthetic gut for more than 30 year with zero failures. The correct size would be 0.85 mm diameter. I buy from Meadows & Passmore, part number 1008 002115. One roll gives you plenty with enough left over for a spare.
 

John Hubby

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gocush;1128309 said:
Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks Peter and John.

John, why the larger size?
The 0.85 mm is the smallest synthetic gut that I have found available. Natural gut is available in smaller sizes, however, I've avoided that due to irregularities and imperfections that aren't present in the synthetic material.
 

tarant

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I've seen few clocks destroyed by weights falling from cracked natural guts. Among them month running Resch (weight ca 5,5 pound). Horror.
 

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