Identify this clock please

[Darrmann39]

2nd of 3 i picked up today. Don't know much about this one. Hung on the wall and running nice.

 

[roughbarked]

R S (mit Rose)

Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim / Müller & Co.

Wecker, Großuhren; Mühlheim (Donau), Deutschland

 

[new2clocks]

To add to what RB stated, this trademark was used by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. at some point after they acquired R. Schnekenburger GmbH in 1900. The Schnekenburger trademark was the same as your trademark, except that the Schnekenburger trade mark was the rose with "RSM" instead of just the "RS".

It was a somewhat complicated acquisition, but the "RS" trademark was known to have been used by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co as early as 1913:



Regards.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Nice clock! Good to hear your kiepzemfromticken is working too!

 

[Steven Thornberry]

The trademark seems to me to be the rose with RSM. So, what are we trying to say here? Both companies seem to have used RSM + rose.

 

[roughbarked]

R S M (mit Rose)		Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim / Müller & Co. / vormals R. Schnekenburger	Großuhren; Mühlheim (Donau), Deutschland
R S M (mit Rose)		Reinhold Schnekenburger GmbH	Mühlheim (Donau), Deutschland

 

[new2clocks]

Both companies seem to have used RSM + rose.

This is my understanding as well. However, my answer was in response to RB's identification of the trademark as RS (as opposed to RMS or RSM, if you will).

The trademark seems to me to be the rose with RSM.

After magnifying the the backplate, the OP's trademark could well be RMS / RSM.

Regards.

 

[roughbarked]

If you look above ... What Mikrolisk doesn't give in these instances, are dates.

 

[Darrmann39]

This is my understanding as well. However, my answer was in response to RB's identification of the trademark as RS (as opposed to RMS or RSM, if you will).



After magnifying the the backplate, the OP's trademark could well be RMS / RSM.

Regards.

Here's info i found by another member back in 2005 thread i just read.

Greetings Chick, hi Mun! This is one of those delightfully messy matters that led to the famous saying that "a rose is a rose is awry." Basically, it went like this.

The firm Rup. [for Rupert] Amann Fabrik für Federzug- & Gewicht-Regulateure, of Mülhheim [on the] Donau, in Württemberg, founded in 1867, was sold in 1882 to Reinhold Schnekenburger. It continued as R. Schnekenburger GmbH a.d. Donau -- with the rose with the RSM as a trademark. Then amid financial problems, what by 1900 had become the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim vorm. [vormals -- earlier known as] R. Schnekenburger was taken over by a creditor, Albert Müller. And on 10 September 1900 (no doubt a semi-sunny day with a touch of rain) became the "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co." Indeed.

 

[new2clocks]

Here's info i found by another member back in 2005 thread i just read.

Greetings Chick, hi Mun! This is one of those delightfully messy matters that led to the famous saying that "a rose is a rose is awry." Basically, it went like this.

The firm Rup. [for Rupert] Amann Fabrik für Federzug- & Gewicht-Regulateure, of Mülhheim [on the] Donau, in Württemberg, founded in 1867, was sold in 1882 to Reinhold Schnekenburger. It continued as R. Schnekenburger GmbH a.d. Donau -- with the rose with the RSM as a trademark. Then amid financial problems, what by 1900 had become the Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim vorm. [vormals -- earlier known as] R. Schnekenburger was taken over by a creditor, Albert Müller. And on 10 September 1900 (no doubt a semi-sunny day with a touch of rain) became the "Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co." Indeed.

The issue is whether your trademark is "RMS or "RS".

The RMS trademark was registered by R. Schnekenburger GmbH prior to its acquisition by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. (or, if you wish, the creditor Albert Müller).

The RS trademark was registered by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. ("UMM" for short).

So, if your trademark is RSM, then your clock could have been made by either Schnekenburger or UMM, as UMM continued to use the trademark after its acquisition of Schnekenburger.

If your trademark is "RS", then this indicates that your clock was made by UMM. As I indicated above, the "RS" trademark was used as early as 1913.

Regards.

 

[roughbarked]

Yes it is my bad for not looking for the M in the first instance.

 

[Darrmann39]

The issue is whether your trademark is "RMS or "RS".

The RMS trademark was registered by R. Schnekenburger GmbH prior to its acquisition by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. (or, if you wish, the creditor Albert Müller).

The RS trademark was registered by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. ("UMM" for short).

So, if your trademark is RSM, then your clock could have been made by either Schnekenburger or UMM, as UMM continued to use the trademark after its acquisition of Schnekenburger.

If your trademark is "RS", then this indicates that your clock was made by UMM. As I indicated above, the "RS" trademark was used as early as 1913.

Regards.

Sorry i should have clarified it is RSM
The two different versions had the RSM in different configuration.

The issue is whether your trademark is "RMS or "RS".

The RMS trademark was registered by R. Schnekenburger GmbH prior to its acquisition by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. (or, if you wish, the creditor Albert Müller).

The RS trademark was registered by Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim, Müller & Co. ("UMM" for short).

So, if your trademark is RSM, then your clock could have been made by either Schnekenburger or UMM, as UMM continued to use the trademark after its acquisition of Schnekenburger.

If your trademark is "RS", then this indicates that your clock was made by UMM. As I indicated above, the "RS" trademark was used as early as 1913.

Regards.

Yes it's RSM but there's two different versions .

 

[new2clocks]

Yes it is my bad for not looking for the M in the first instance.

TBH, it looked like RS to me as well until I magnified the picture a few times and saw what could be an "M".

Regards.

 

[roughbarked]

Yes and yours is this one.

Reinhold Schnekenburger GmbH

Mühlheim (Donau), Deutschland

 

[new2clocks]

Sorry i should have clarified it is RSM
The two different versions had the RSM in different configuration.

Yes it's RSM but there's two different versions .

View attachment 632869 View attachment 632872

I am relying on memory, so please don't quote me on the following.

Research performed by John Hubby indicated that UMM did, in fact. change the font and placement of the letters (RSM) at some point. I do not recall when this occurred. My recollection is that both RSM trademarks were used by UMM post-acquisition. I do not know when UMM ceased using your specific trademark. I also do not know if UMM used both trademarks concurrently and, if they did use them concurrently, I do not know when they ceased using your trademark, if at all.

I will research some and see what I can find.

And, to confuse the situation further, UMM also registered their "Lion over U.M. in a circle" trademark at some point.

Regards.

EDIT: I believe my recollection to be incorrect. I believe John only indicated that the RSM rose trademark was reduced in size.

 

[new2clocks]

Yes and yours is this one.

Reinhold Schnekenburger GmbH

Mühlheim (Donau), Deutschland

I think Darrmann39 is attempting to narrow the age of his movement to a "no later than" date under the assumption that the new trademark was registered in 19xx and the old RSM was not used after that date.

While this could be true, many times different trademarks were used concurrently and if so, may not be of assistance.

Regards.

 

[roughbarked]

Mikrolisk often includes at least the dates of registration of the mark but not so in this instance.

 

[Darrmann39]

I think Darrmann39 is attempting to narrow the age of his movement to a "no later than" date under the assumption that the new trademark was registered in 19xx and the old RSM was not used after that date.

While this could be true, many times different trademarks were used concurrently and if so, may not be of assistance.

Regards.

So basically it became Rsm in 1882 and umm took it over in 1900 so unless umm used it in overlap it would put it between those times. Am i correct

 

[new2clocks]

So basically it became Rsm in 1882 and umm took it over in 1900 so unless umm used it in overlap it would put it between those times. Am i correct

Well, the more I look into the RSM trademark, the more interesting facts I uncover.

John Hubby has been accumulating quite a bit of data on RSM / UMM and John has discovered the following.

The first RSM logo was the "RSM rose". From 1882 to 1896, the logo used was the "large" version, which was 3 times the size of the small version of the trademark. Your logo appears to be the small version. The small version was introduced in 1891, and presumably was used concurrent with the large version until 1896.

The "RS" logo was known to have existed in trade advertisements in 1913, but John has not found any movements with the "RS" logo.

In 1914, both the RSM and the RS logo were discontinued and the first UM lion trademark was utilized.

I can not find any examples of the one logo shown by mikrolisk - the logo where the the "R" and the "S" are located on the sides of the rose leaves. Perhaps mikrolisk intended to indicate that this was the "large" version of the rose.

What does this mean for your clock?

The trademark on your movement was used from 1891 to 1913. Being that your clock is a box clock, which were popular commencing around 1910, I would estimate you clock from 1910 or so.

Regards.

 

[Darrmann39]

Well, the more I look into the RSM trademark, the more interesting facts I uncover.

John Hubby has been accumulating quite a bit of data on RSM / UMM and John has discovered the following.

The first RSM logo was the "RSM rose". From 1882 to 1896, the logo used was the "large" version, which was 3 times the size of the small version of the trademark. Your logo appears to be the small version. The small version was introduced in 1891, and presumably was used concurrent with the large version until 1896.

The "RS" logo was known to have existed in trade advertisements in 1913, but John has not found any movements with the "RS" logo.

In 1914, both the RSM and the RS logo were discontinued and the first UM lion trademark was utilized.

I can not find any examples of the one logo shown by mikrolisk - the logo where the the "R" and the "S" are located on the sides of the rose leaves. Perhaps mikrolisk intended to indicate that this was the "large" version of the rose.

What does this mean for your clock?

The trademark on your movement was used from 1891 to 1913. Being that your clock is a box clock, which were popular commencing around 1910, I would estimate you clock from 1910 or so.

Regards.

That's pretty awesome info. These forums are great. Thanks. It's in pretty amazing condition for being that old.