Identify Maker In Order to Repair

Quarter2

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Hello to all readers. I am quite excited to finally join NAWCC and participate in the forums. I am just beginning my new life in clock repair and would appreciate some help with this clock. I have not been able to identify the clock by any part of the movement nor case. I came accross this clock from a fellow who accidentally dropped it on the floor ane caused quite the damage. The case has been mostly rebuilt but the movement needs work. Any help with the maker would be appreciated. Phots as follows: IMG_0464.jpeg IMG_0471.jpeg IMG_0474.jpeg
 

Willie X

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Feb 9, 2008
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Quar,

Welcome to the MB.

The keyhole movement mount holes are a clue, They were only used by a few manufacturers. IMOE, knowing the maker has little to no effect on repairing any old clock. Unless maybe you plan to look for a donar movement? No parts are available otherwise, except a few generic parts like suspension springs, weight cords, etc.

Outlining exactly what you need there will help a lot.

Willie X
 
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Quarter2

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Thanks Willie. I will have to look at taking the movement appart to see the extent of the damage. i am somewhat intimidated by the profusion of levers seen on the movement.
Quarter2
 

Willie X

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Just take photos, make notes, and be sure to check for washers/spacers on every post, spring placement, etc. Some may have never been dissembled. Willie
 

PatH

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Welcome, Quarter2!

This appears to be a grande sonnerie movement, so there is much more to consider here than in other 3-train movements. From the pictures, it seems there are missing parts that may not be readily available, as Willie X said. Could you tell us a little about your previous clock repair experience, as well as what tools you have? This will help advise on how to get started.
 

shutterbug

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That's what it looks like to me, too. How long ago did the clock fall? Any chance of finding the other parts?
 

Dick Feldman

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Before dismantling the movement it would be of paramount importance to know the condition of the movement. A movement of that age is likely the victim of wear due to long use. Clean, oil and adjust will have little or no effect on wear and more extensive repairs may be required than available to a novice. The movement is of fairly high quality and delicate. It’s origin may be with Gustav Becker or successors.
A suggestion would be to find a mentor (Maybe through a local NAWCC Chapter) to help you through the repair/reconditioning of that movement. Many years experience tells me that repair or reconditioning of that movement without outside expert help almost impossible for a novice.
If completed properly, that clock will be a pleasure to have for many years.
Best of luck with your clock and with your repair venture.
Dick Feldman
 

Quarter2

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Thanks to all of you for your replies and advice. I totally agree that this looks beyond my repair ability right now. I don't mind taking a risk but it would be a shame to further damage this clock. It is difficult at present to know if some parts may have gone missing from the gentleman who dropped it. Everything was just stored in a plastic bucket, so not knowing what the whole movement should look like posses issues obviously. Thus why I posted the pictures. I would love to find a mentor, but may not have anyone in my area. i am hoping to take a course in the next year to fill in many gaps. I love the challenge and the beauty of clockworks along with the artistry of antique clocks. Thanks again.
 

PatH

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If you click on Local Chapters at the top of the page, you may be able to find a chapter in your area where you could get answers. Be sure to check back in to let us know how it goes.

In the meantime, there are other clocks that might be better "starter" projects. I'm sure others can provide suggestions.

Once again, welcome, and please don't let this clock deter you in your new hobby. You'll find many threads in the clock repair section that can provide insight into experiences of others who are new to the hobby.
 

Quarter2

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Just thinking.... some of you feel there are likely parts missing. Any suggestions of what they might be??
 

senhalls

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Please point out missing parts positions . I see nothing missing . Pendulum , dial , hands . Take lots of photos and dive into it . Best Wishes !
 

Quarter2

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I have the pendulum, weights, dial, hands, but am not sure what else may be missing. All the levers seem to be there with holding springs. I will look at better photos and post later. Thanks.
 

PatH

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It looks like there may be something up with the arbor that the hands should fit on. It may just be camera angle, but you might want to give it a look.
 

JimmyOz

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Apart from the broken arbour it all looks to be there, however the helper spring on the far right next to the pull cord looks like it should be behind the left bottom of the curve, therefore returning the pull cord after you pull it as well as letting the rack count lever work with the rack.
 

rgmt79

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It is a grande sonnerie and the attached photo will show you what it should look like. Clearly the minute arbour has broken off and parts that are missing include the hour pipe and bridge. Ignore the small star wheel to the right as this is part of a calendar mechanism, which your movement does not appear to have. I can't imagine that these missing parts and damage resulted from the clock being dropped, the missing bridge would have protected the minute arbour. Also missing are the 2 coiled gongs from the backplate. If you can salvage the missing parts from your box of bits, then the only repair necessary (from what I can see) is a new minute arbour will need to be machined (if the broken arbour is among your box of bits, then it may be possible to re-attach it).

Good luck,

Richard

IMG_2173.JPG
 

Quarter2

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It is a grande sonnerie and the attached photo will show you what it should look like. Clearly the minute arbour has broken off and parts that are missing include the hour pipe and bridge. Ignore the small star wheel to the right as this is part of a calendar mechanism, which your movement does not appear to have. I can't imagine that these missing parts and damage resulted from the clock being dropped, the missing bridge would have protected the minute arbour. Also missing are the 2 coiled gongs from the backplate. If you can salvage the missing parts from your box of bits, then the only repair necessary (from what I can see) is a new minute arbour will need to be machined (if the broken arbour is among your box of bits, then it may be possible to re-attach it).

Good luck,

Richard

View attachment 648566
 

Quarter2

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Thank you all for the assistance. This clock doesn't have the coiled gongs rather it has two gong rods. I assume the shorter is the quarter hour while the longer is the hour. I do have the minute arbour and hour pipe. (see attached photos) The only story I could get from the gentleman i bout the clock from was that it fell off the wall. I agree that the damage to the mounting posts on the movement, as well as sheering off the minute arbour seems excessive for a straight drop to the floor. I really hope I can get this running again. IMG_0461.jpeg IMG_0472.jpeg
 

kinsler33

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Thank you all for the assistance. This clock doesn't have the coiled gongs rather it has two gong rods. I assume the shorter is the quarter hour while the longer is the hour. I do have the minute arbour and hour pipe. (see attached photos) The only story I could get from the gentleman i bout the clock from was that it fell off the wall. I agree that the damage to the mounting posts on the movement, as well as sheering off the minute arbour seems excessive for a straight drop to the floor. I really hope I can get this running again. View attachment 649074 View attachment 649075
Nobody ever tells the truth when asked how the clock broke. I suspect domestic disputes: "...and take your clock with you!!!!"

M Kinsler
 

Quarter2

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I will check through the bucket with the "parts" in it for the bridge tonight, but it seems unbelievable that the bridge screws could have popped out of the plate without evidence. The minute arbour is in fact in the hour pipe. where the arbour was sheered off by the plate is enough to just insert into the small minute wheel. The hour pipe slides off the arbour quite easily. I do not know if a new bridge would have to be custom made or found from someone else's scrap.
 

PatH

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Does the dial show damage around any of the arbors?
 

RJSoftware

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Pinned pillar = older. Nice.
Broken suspension spring on 2 rod chime block. Chime block and rods look good. Suspension easy fix.

Why no picture of dial?
Do you got the pendulum? If not, make a temporary so you can establish length. Then buy a lyre style pendulum with large bob. Weight dont matter, length does. Getting a temporary made with coat hanger wire and any small weight for a bob will help establish length.

Same with weights, you can tie fish scale to current weight time chord with heavy weight to and as clock runs weight bottoms out and fish scale indicates minimum weight needed. You can then estimate other weights using similar clock weight sets.

Yours appears to have one note for striking hours and other for the quarter s.

I don't see seconds hand arbor, usually near top. So no sub seconds hand dial. But yep, looks to have a moon dial. Might be rough to get same maker dial, same style.
 

Quarter2

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Dial looks in good shape, although it seems that it may be a replacement. I would have expected an enamelled face with roman numerals.

IMG_0460.jpeg IMG_0473.jpeg
 

RJSoftware

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Dial looks in good shape, although it seems that it may be a replacement. I would have expected an enamelled face with roman numerals.

View attachment 649117 View attachment 649118
Dial looks right, even though it only has one dial post, 3 broken off. The look to line up with holes. But how is moon dial arranged, I wonder. Usually included with dial
 

rgmt79

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The minute arbour is in fact in the hour pipe. where the arbour was sheered off by the plate is enough to just insert into the small minute wheel
When you have dismantled the movement, take a picture of both halves of the minute arbour and I can suggest repair options. Do you have or have access to a lathe?
I do not know if a new bridge would have to be custom made or found from someone else's scrap
Most likely it will have to be custom made unless you can find a donor movement. A replacement minute arbour can also come from a donor movement..do a search on eBay. It is a German movement, I know Gustav Becker produced weight driven Grande Sonnerie movements, someone on here will know better than me.

Richard
 
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RJSoftware

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I take it back on moon dial, I thought the star looking gear would be some increment device for moon dial, but looks like it has 12 teeth and that doesn't go evenly in 28. Plus moon dials usually only increment 2 times a day. No clue
 

rgmt79

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I take it back on moon dial, I thought the star looking gear would be some increment device for moon dial, but looks like it has 12 teeth and that doesn't go evenly in 28. Plus moon dials usually only increment 2 times a day. No clue
The star wheel controls the position of the hour cam, which in turn controls the hour striking. 12 stars (teeth) = 12 hours

Richard
 
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Quarter2

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Thanks Richard. I will do a search on ebay for the parts. I have a Gustav Becker regulator and it is clearly stamped on the movement, this one does not have any stamp/identifying mark anywhere. Is there any chance it is French? I don't have a jeweller's lathe so can't manufacture the parts myself. Someday.
 

rgmt79

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Is there any chance it is French?
No, this is definitely made in Germany or Austria, apart from Gustav Becker there were many other clockmakers around in the late 19c /early 20c. The style of case suggests Austrian around Vienna within the Austro/Hungarian empire before the 1st WW.

Very nice looking clock, pity that someone has messed up big time with the movement. If you decide to pass on it's repair, let me know. I'd be interested to take it on.

Richard
 
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RJSoftware

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The star wheel controls the position of the hour cam, which in turn controls the hour striking. 12 stars (teeth) = 12 hours

Richard
ah, make sense now. Thanks!
 

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