• The Bulletins and Marts are again available online. The network connectivity problem has been fixed. Thank you all very much for your patience.

Identify German Trademark

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
Could anyone please tell me the maker of a German regulator movement with this mark:

The letters B and P with what looks like an hour hand between them, (the letters and hand are contained within a shield-shaped rectangle).

I feel sure I've seen this before but I just cannot remember. Thanks for any help.
JTD
 

zepernick

Deceased
Aug 8, 2004
2,602
13
0
Country
Region
Greetings JTD -- The mark was for the firm Bernhard Paschen GmbH, in Hagen i.W. (i.e., in what was once just Westfalen and is now Nordrhein-Westfalen). There's surprisingly little known about the firm. They started around 1876 as an Uhrenhandlung -- wholesalers. And didn't start making their own clocks until about 1908. Last mention of the firm that's been found to date, according to Hans-Heinrich Schmid, was in 1925. There's a nice ad from BP reprinted in his (2005) _Lexikon_ by the way. But if you're into gongs -- the clock type not the military -- what's famous about BP is they introduced one of the earliest and most successful, and called it "Nora Glockengong". Indeed. I've one in the background right now, shaking the timbers. Regards, Duck
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
Thank you very much for this information Duck, it was good of you and I was very pleased to get it.

The clock is (was!) quite nice - there is a nice movement with an unscratched enamel dial and an ornate pendulum which I think is original. The only snag is the case. It seems to have been originally very plain, with no finials, headpiece or ornamention of any kind. So far, so good. However, some previous owner felt it necessary to paint the whole case with brownish-yellow paint, which he then stippled with a sponge! Fortunately he didn't attack the inside, which shows what the original probably was - nice mahagony veneer, with a backboard of matched quartered veneer. The result of the paintng is truly hideous and has ruined a nice case. I am turning over in my mind whether to try to strip it all off - I have never done this before, but seems I could hardly make it look worse, provided I was careful not to get stripper on the un-vandalised inside of the case. I wish I had a picture to help me know what the original was like, but I guess it was just plain and unornamented wood.
I was interested in what you wrote about the Nora Glockengong (wonder if Nora was BP's wife?). My clock has a spiral gong marked Glockengong but doesn't mention Nora. The unusual thing about it is that the gong is on a very long stem (about 10") and is fixed to the backboard of the case way down below the movement. Then the nice, quartered mahogony veneered 'false' backboard is fitted over the stem of the gong, so that only the spiral is visible behind the movement. I guess the idea of this is to form a kind of soundbox, to make the gong more sonorous.

The movement of this clock is really filthy, but still goes quite well. The fly is a new type, at least to my not very experienced eye. Instead of the usual piece of flat brass, it is made of two tiny weights each resting between two pins and attached to a little piece of spring, which is in turn fixed at each end to the fly spindle. One of the little springs has come unattached at one end and so the weight is hanging loose and stops the fly turning. It looks as if it has been attached at some time in the past by solder and I guess I will have to try to re-attach it the same way. I have never seen this sort of fly before - was it another of BP's patent ideas?

Thanks again for your help - it is much appreciated.

John
PS Are you really in Zepernick (I mean the Zepernick in Brandenburg, bei Schwaneberg and Birkholz) or is there another one in the States somewhere?
 

zepernick

Deceased
Aug 8, 2004
2,602
13
0
Country
Region
Greetings John --

Agree with you that given that brownish-yellow paint mess on the outside of the case, one could hardly sin more to get rid of it. Then too, stripping solutions, even those which claim to be "environmentally friendly," can't be beat should you have a head cold and nead a sinus clear.

My understanding as to "Nora" and "Glockengong" is that both were trade names for BP gongs, that is, you could refer to "Noragongs" and "Glockengongs". Yet the cast-iron mounting base on my BP (which sounds like yours) does have "Nora" above "Glockengong" and so I've fondly thought of her as being named Nora G.

Right around that turn of the century there was a great deal of trade interest in gongs, and I've been reading around so to speak in this period for a future article. By chance, and from a brief notice of Bernhard Paschen's death (at 58 on 25 May 1908) in the _Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung_, I'm aware that his gong construction was supposedly "a turning point" -- "namely, that was it successful".

Unfortunately, although we do have access to the historical German DRPs through the German patent office's website (http://depatisnet.dpma.de), the historical DRGMs are not e-accessible. Nor can one do searches with the older DRPs. So for example if you have a DRP patent number you can access the patent. But doing a search by "Paschen" won't give all of their patents. So you can compare your gong to the model shown in DRP 118687 (key in "DE" for German and then 118687). On the other hand, I don't if BP held a patent of either type for the fly (it does show up on other G clocks).

Do let us know how the case restoration goes.

Best, Duck
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
Hallo Duck,
Thanks once again for valuable information which I am glad to have. I like to know as much as I can about my clocks. The fly with the tiny weights has got some even tinier writing on the weights which I think may be a patent number if I can succeed in reading it. If I can decipher it, I'll see if it can be read on the site of the Patentamt.

Sorry if the PS on my message was unduly inquisitive - I didn't mean to be, I was just interested to have contact with Zepernick..

I'll let you know what I find under the hideous paint!
Thanks and best wishes,
JTD
 

zepernick

Deceased
Aug 8, 2004
2,602
13
0
Country
Region
Greetings John --

Was thumbing through some DRP and DRGM patent listings last night -- "as one does" <g> -- and did note a BP patent for a fly that might be related to your beastie. It's DRGM 122168, effective from 21 July 1899, for a "Windfang für Uhrschlagwerk, Musik- und Laufwerke mit auf einer Welle drehbaren Reguilirwindflügeln."

Unfortunately I: Almost all of the specification files (drawings etc.) for DRGMs before the 1930s were either destroyed or lost.
Unfortunately II: Most of the DRGM basic-information files (entries from the rolls) are available through the present German Patent Office by application, etc., for a small fee. But there are no DRGM listings or roll entries accessible through their website. Only the DRPs.

That said, a DRP number would allow a Depatisnet check, and a DRGM at least a match to the listing (which came from the 1899 _Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung_, as above).

Of course we're curious!

Best, Duck
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
Thanks Duck, every bit of information helps. Tonight I'll get my strongest loupe (and my strongest glasses) and see if I can decipher the letters/numbers marked on the weights. I'll let you know if it is a patent number. (I like 'Windfang' - a wind-catcher is exactly what it is, and a better name than 'fly', I think).
Regards, John
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
I think I managed to decipher the numbers on the tiny weights. As far as I can see it says
DRGM Nr. 78933, but the last number is very badly stamped so I might be wrong. Any ideas?
JTD
 

zepernick

Deceased
Aug 8, 2004
2,602
13
0
Country
Region
Greetings John -- and good stuff indeed! The only horological DRGM with the initial digits 789XX (let alone 7893X) is 78937. The complete entry in an 1897 issue of the _Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung_ under the Gebrauchsmusterschutz-Eintragungen heading is as follows:

"Klasse 83. 78937. Das Schlagwerk regulirender Windfang für Wanduhren. Tobias Bäuerle, St. Georgen, Schwarzwald. 25. June 1897. B. 8600" The 25.VI.1897 is of course the date the DRGM was effective from. The B. 8600 was the TB firm's own file number.

There's nothing about this particular patent in the page-and-a-half entry for the firm TB in Hans-Heinrich Schmid's (2005) _Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980_. Nor for that matter in BP's. And as noted before, the specification files for these early DRGMs are no longer.
Yet at least we have a source for the "wind-catcher" (a very nice name, yes) and a not-earlier-than date for the clock.

However there's still the fly-acting-as-a-prayer-wheel question. Having spun around on those tiny weights how many millions of times for over a century, might not 78937 now have some special ethereal potency, perhaps as lottery numbers?

Regards, Duck
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
9,321
895
113
Country
Good morning Duck,
Great - this is surely the patent. Thank you so much for this information - it all adds to the clock's interest. I haven't tried stripping the case yet, but hope to soon. I'll let you know what I find underneath.
And I REALLY like the idea of the spun-numbers potency theory...........I'll let you know if my number comes up!
Best wishes,
JTD
 

Forum statistics

Threads
169,689
Messages
1,481,083
Members
49,094
Latest member
Smartin
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,965
Last update
-