Hello. I purchased a large International Time Recording Co. master clock on ebay a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps some of you saw it. It's one of those big ones installed in a school in 1927 to run the slave clocks and the bell system. Its model number is 13 6 12. It is complete with all of the internal machinery and looks to be in operating condition. Anyway, my problem is that I have no wiring information. One of the previous owners wired the movement seperately with a small 10 volt DC adapter, and this runs the movement just fine. It's clicking and clunking on the wall next to me right now. I know that its circuitry is 12 volts DC, but that is all I know. I also got one slave clock with it and I would like to install one bell if I can find one. Do any of you knowledgeable in the area of electronically wound clocks know where I might obtain a wiring diagram? A friend suggested that I try contaction IBM, but I haven't done that as yet. I would apprectiate any help and/or discussion here. Thanks a heap. Lloyd Schlitzer
Hello. I purchased a large International Time Recording Co. master clock on ebay a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps some of you saw it. It's one of those big ones installed in a school in 1927 to run the slave clocks and the bell system. Its model number is 13 6 12. It is complete with all of the internal machinery and looks to be in operating condition. Anyway, my problem is that I have no wiring information. One of the previous owners wired the movement seperately with a small 10 volt DC adapter, and this runs the movement just fine. It's clicking and clunking on the wall next to me right now. I know that its circuitry is 12 volts DC, but that is all I know. I also got one slave clock with it and I would like to install one bell if I can find one. Do any of you knowledgeable in the area of electronically wound clocks know where I might obtain a wiring diagram? A friend suggested that I try contaction IBM, but I haven't done that as yet. I would apprectiate any help and/or discussion here. Thanks a heap. Lloyd Schlitzer
Restoring your IBM Model 13 master clock to it's original wiring is going to be difficult even for one knowledgeable about them; and especially hard to guide you to do it yourself. But let's take a try. We need to know what alterations were done by the previous owner to "wire the movement separately with the small 10 volt DC adapter." Probably some clean detailed photos of the wiring on the movement will reveal some of the alterations which can be compared with an existing wiring diagram for the model 13 master clock. More, you should know that most IBM master clocks run on 24 volts. Some on 24 volts DC only and the most popular versions have a built-in 120 volt AC transformer/rectifier providing 24 volts AC for the controls circuits and 24 volts DC to activate the wind magnets, advance the bell programmer and control attached slave clocks which most are made for 24 volts DC. Some detailed photos of the clock inside and out will help.
Restoring your IBM Model 13 master clock to it's original wiring is going to be difficult even for one knowledgeable about them; and especially hard to guide you to do it yourself. But let's take a try. We need to know what alterations were done by the previous owner to "wire the movement separately with the small 10 volt DC adapter." Probably some clean detailed photos of the wiring on the movement will reveal some of the alterations which can be compared with an existing wiring diagram for the model 13 master clock. More, you should know that most IBM master clocks run on 24 volts. Some on 24 volts DC only and the most popular versions have a built-in 120 volt AC transformer/rectifier providing 24 volts AC for the controls circuits and 24 volts DC to activate the wind magnets, advance the bell programmer and control attached slave clocks which most are made for 24 volts DC. Some detailed photos of the clock inside and out will help.
Hello Les, I hope you see this response after so long a time. I've been away and got back yesterday, and was somewhat disappointed that my query got so few responses. Oh well! It sounds like you are knowledgable in this area and I certainly need some help here. Anyway, I can take pics and can email them directly to you or I can try to post them here. I haven't done that yet but will certainly do so. If others do it, I can also. The wiring in the clock, relays, and switches all seem to be intact and original. All the connections on the top of the case seem to be there and there are 4 cartridge fuse holders on the top. Three of them have 6 amp fuses in them, and the 4th is empty. There are no transformers present and no place for them in the case. They must have been external but I can't see where they would have been hooked in. Like I said, a previous owner wired the movement directly with a small 10 volt adapter. This has a 120 volt ac input, and 10 volt 700 milliamp dc output. I believe the original wires are there, but just disconnected. The movement runs great as it is now and appears to wind each minute as it should . I don't know what to do next. Les, if you can guide me here I'd appreciate it. Do you have wiring diagrams? I think that's what I really need are some wiring diagrams for this type of clock. Thanks. Lloyd Schlitzer, NAWCC 24823
Hello Les, I hope you see this response after so long a time. I've been away and got back yesterday, and was somewhat disappointed that my query got so few responses. Oh well! It sounds like you are knowledgable in this area and I certainly need some help here. Anyway, I can take pics and can email them directly to you or I can try to post them here. I haven't done that yet but will certainly do so. If others do it, I can also. The wiring in the clock, relays, and switches all seem to be intact and original. All the connections on the top of the case seem to be there and there are 4 cartridge fuse holders on the top. Three of them have 6 amp fuses in them, and the 4th is empty. There are no transformers present and no place for them in the case. They must have been external but I can't see where they would have been hooked in. Like I said, a previous owner wired the movement directly with a small 10 volt adapter. This has a 120 volt ac input, and 10 volt 700 milliamp dc output. I believe the original wires are there, but just disconnected. The movement runs great as it is now and appears to wind each minute as it should . I don't know what to do next. Les, if you can guide me here I'd appreciate it. Do you have wiring diagrams? I think that's what I really need are some wiring diagrams for this type of clock. Thanks. Lloyd Schlitzer, NAWCC 24823
Hi, Lloyd. Like Les said, most of these clocks were built to run on 24 volts dc. However, yours apparently came from the factory equiped to run a 12 volt system. A few pictures would help us to help you. You may have to trace the wiring back to the contacts on the movement to determine what is what. Are any of the wiring on top of the clock labelled? It should have an input (12 volts DC), a slave output, and a signal output. It likely had a separate power supply for the 12 volt input and to run the slaves. This is what you will have to build. It isn't a difficult job, if you have any electrical background. You need a 12 volt transformer, a rectifier to change ac to dc, and a relay. I may have a schematic for this, will have to check my books. Harold
Hi, Lloyd. Like Les said, most of these clocks were built to run on 24 volts dc. However, yours apparently came from the factory equiped to run a 12 volt system. A few pictures would help us to help you. You may have to trace the wiring back to the contacts on the movement to determine what is what. Are any of the wiring on top of the clock labelled? It should have an input (12 volts DC), a slave output, and a signal output. It likely had a separate power supply for the 12 volt input and to run the slaves. This is what you will have to build. It isn't a difficult job, if you have any electrical background. You need a 12 volt transformer, a rectifier to change ac to dc, and a relay. I may have a schematic for this, will have to check my books. Harold
Hello Harold. My electrical knowledge is very limited and goes to my college physics days. Fortunately, the circuitry with this clock is not difficult because it only has switches and relays, fuses and lots of wires. I made a schematic of the wires on the back before I hung it on the wall and took pics of the back, top, and insides. I will review these and see what I can post. Meanwhile, the top has 12 connectors, from left to right they are as follows: (1) fuse. One terminal has a short wire to (3) and a wire down the back of the case. The other terminal is tied to (11). (2) fuse. One terminal has a wire down the back of the case. The other terminal is tied to (11). (3) connector, has short wire to first fuse, other terminal is open, (4) has wire which goes down back, I believe to a main circuit switch inside the case. The other terminal is open. There is a small plate below the connectors so far, and it reads IE 12V IE CLOCKS. (5) through (8) These are numbered 1 through 4 and have wires connected to one terminal each. These wires go down the back and I believe they go to respective bell relays at the bottom of the case. The other terminals are open. (9) I believe this connector is labeled D . One terminal has a short wire to the third fuse. The other terminal is open. (10) I believe this is labeled X . It has a short wire to the fourth fuse, and the other terminal is open. (11) this is a fuse with the first terminal tied to (9) and the other tied to (1). (12) this is a fuse (fuse is missing) with the first terminal tied to (10) and to a wire going down the back of the case, and the second terminal tied to (2). There is a small plate here with B F P. I hope this makes some sense to someone. Thanks. Lloyd Schlitzer
Hello Harold. My electrical knowledge is very limited and goes to my college physics days. Fortunately, the circuitry with this clock is not difficult because it only has switches and relays, fuses and lots of wires. I made a schematic of the wires on the back before I hung it on the wall and took pics of the back, top, and insides. I will review these and see what I can post. Meanwhile, the top has 12 connectors, from left to right they are as follows: (1) fuse. One terminal has a short wire to (3) and a wire down the back of the case. The other terminal is tied to (11). (2) fuse. One terminal has a wire down the back of the case. The other terminal is tied to (11). (3) connector, has short wire to first fuse, other terminal is open, (4) has wire which goes down back, I believe to a main circuit switch inside the case. The other terminal is open. There is a small plate below the connectors so far, and it reads IE 12V IE CLOCKS. (5) through (8) These are numbered 1 through 4 and have wires connected to one terminal each. These wires go down the back and I believe they go to respective bell relays at the bottom of the case. The other terminals are open. (9) I believe this connector is labeled D . One terminal has a short wire to the third fuse. The other terminal is open. (10) I believe this is labeled X . It has a short wire to the fourth fuse, and the other terminal is open. (11) this is a fuse with the first terminal tied to (9) and the other tied to (1). (12) this is a fuse (fuse is missing) with the first terminal tied to (10) and to a wire going down the back of the case, and the second terminal tied to (2). There is a small plate here with B F P. I hope this makes some sense to someone. Thanks. Lloyd Schlitzer
Hi, Lloyd. I will need some pictures, including the schematic you have made. Does your clock have a program device mounted in it? Harold
Hi, Lloyd. I will need some pictures, including the schematic you have made. Does your clock have a program device mounted in it? Harold
http://static.flickr.com/55/193407939_1ddbd840fb.jpg http://static.flickr.com/57/193407940_eaf00caa7c.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/55/193407939_1ddbd840fb.jpg http://static.flickr.com/57/193407940_eaf00caa7c.jpg
LLoyd, your pictures came through perfectly. I have never seen a clock like yours. That second movement beside the main drive movement has me baffled. Is there a pendulum for it? Or a second dial? The main movement has no contacts for slave correction, so possibly the second movement had something to do with slave correction? Harold
LLoyd, your pictures came through perfectly. I have never seen a clock like yours. That second movement beside the main drive movement has me baffled. Is there a pendulum for it? Or a second dial? The main movement has no contacts for slave correction, so possibly the second movement had something to do with slave correction? Harold
Thanks for your reply, Harold. The second movement is a timer which runs with a verge and escape like an alarm in a kitchen clock. It's electrically wound and somehow triggered off the bell program unit. I think it regulates the time the bells ring, but I'm not 100% sure. Once wound, it runs for about 10 seconds. This had a broken verge and I replaced the verge on it so it works fine. There are two make/break contacts on the movement. The outside one is a 2-second operation and I believe it runs the movement wind electromagnet, and/or a relay to the right of the movement. I don't think I included a pic of it as yet. I've been studying all of the circuitry and I think I've made some small progress. It appears that the program unit is pulsed by that relay which probably also pulses the slave clocks. This relay has rather large carbon contacts and I've got it to work (sort of) because it is activated by the same make/break points of the movement. However, I now think that the circuitry is actually 24 volts because the small 10 volt adapter that I'm using will operate only one of the electromagnets at a time. The second auxillary make/break contacts have a variable duration between the make and the break which can be set for up to a minute, but I don't know what they are for. Any ideas? I bought two 120v ac transformers with 12v 10 amp output on ebay a couple of days ago. As soon as they come, I'll get a couple of rectifiers from Radio Shack and hook them up. Connecting them in series should give me the 24v dc, or I can use them seperately for 12v dc. Can you see the connections at the top of the case? I think the dc power source should be connected between the first connector marked CLOCKS, and the connector marked X. I've spent hours trying to trace circuits and wires and try to figure out the connections. I probably won't really be able to check it out until I get my transformers. Would you like pics of anything else? I didn't want to put in too many, but I certainly could include a couple more. Thanks. Lloyd
Thanks for your reply, Harold. The second movement is a timer which runs with a verge and escape like an alarm in a kitchen clock. It's electrically wound and somehow triggered off the bell program unit. I think it regulates the time the bells ring, but I'm not 100% sure. Once wound, it runs for about 10 seconds. This had a broken verge and I replaced the verge on it so it works fine. There are two make/break contacts on the movement. The outside one is a 2-second operation and I believe it runs the movement wind electromagnet, and/or a relay to the right of the movement. I don't think I included a pic of it as yet. I've been studying all of the circuitry and I think I've made some small progress. It appears that the program unit is pulsed by that relay which probably also pulses the slave clocks. This relay has rather large carbon contacts and I've got it to work (sort of) because it is activated by the same make/break points of the movement. However, I now think that the circuitry is actually 24 volts because the small 10 volt adapter that I'm using will operate only one of the electromagnets at a time. The second auxillary make/break contacts have a variable duration between the make and the break which can be set for up to a minute, but I don't know what they are for. Any ideas? I bought two 120v ac transformers with 12v 10 amp output on ebay a couple of days ago. As soon as they come, I'll get a couple of rectifiers from Radio Shack and hook them up. Connecting them in series should give me the 24v dc, or I can use them seperately for 12v dc. Can you see the connections at the top of the case? I think the dc power source should be connected between the first connector marked CLOCKS, and the connector marked X. I've spent hours trying to trace circuits and wires and try to figure out the connections. I probably won't really be able to check it out until I get my transformers. Would you like pics of anything else? I didn't want to put in too many, but I certainly could include a couple more. Thanks. Lloyd
I'm not sure I can add much to the inital question, but I can help with the question about the second movement. That movement is a variation of the Monarch Telephone Co. self winding movement. IBM (ITR) acquired Monarch and it appears that your clock has one of the Monarch patented movements incorporated into it. I would be curious as to its purpose. My quess is that it may advance slaves clocks connected to the Master. I have seen this movement but not incorporated in a clock. Yours is probably a pretty rare setup.
I'm not sure I can add much to the inital question, but I can help with the question about the second movement. That movement is a variation of the Monarch Telephone Co. self winding movement. IBM (ITR) acquired Monarch and it appears that your clock has one of the Monarch patented movements incorporated into it. I would be curious as to its purpose. My quess is that it may advance slaves clocks connected to the Master. I have seen this movement but not incorporated in a clock. Yours is probably a pretty rare setup.
Lloyd, the adjustable contact is for your bell duration. The bell disc runs as a slave clock would, controlled by the minute impulse contact. Be careful raising the voltage, as a 24 volt solenoid would not pick at all on 12 volts. I think a transformer with a higher wattage, at 12 volts should work. Put a voltmeter on the solenoid to see how much voltage is actually being used now. The current requirements may be dropping your voltage down to 10 or less volts. That second movement may be some kind of impulse accumulator used to correct the clocks after a power outage, but it should run for at least an hour or two to be useful. I think you are missing some contacts and cams on the main movement for clock correction. Is there an unused cam behind the big gear on the hour cannon? Harold
Lloyd, the adjustable contact is for your bell duration. The bell disc runs as a slave clock would, controlled by the minute impulse contact. Be careful raising the voltage, as a 24 volt solenoid would not pick at all on 12 volts. I think a transformer with a higher wattage, at 12 volts should work. Put a voltmeter on the solenoid to see how much voltage is actually being used now. The current requirements may be dropping your voltage down to 10 or less volts. That second movement may be some kind of impulse accumulator used to correct the clocks after a power outage, but it should run for at least an hour or two to be useful. I think you are missing some contacts and cams on the main movement for clock correction. Is there an unused cam behind the big gear on the hour cannon? Harold
The movement to the left is a timer. It has a very small pendulum with an adjustable weight. It's actually relatively common.
The movement to the left is a timer. It has a very small pendulum with an adjustable weight. It's actually relatively common.
Here are three more pics. The first is the relay with the carbon contacts, the second is the circuit switch to the right of the movement, and the third shows the bell switches and relays at the bottom of the case. Lloyd
Here are three more pics. The first is the relay with the carbon contacts, the second is the circuit switch to the right of the movement, and the third shows the bell switches and relays at the bottom of the case. Lloyd
Joe, a timer for what purpose? Lloyd, your bell set up is typical for a 4 circuit bell controller. The push buttons on the bottom manually activate each circuit. Is there a voltage rating on the relays? Harold
Joe, a timer for what purpose? Lloyd, your bell set up is typical for a 4 circuit bell controller. The push buttons on the bottom manually activate each circuit. Is there a voltage rating on the relays? Harold
Let me barge in here. The timer is used to limit the durration of the bell signal. The older International movements did not have durration contacts on the movement. A brief impulse to the timer winds a short mainspring letting the escapement determine the length of time that the school or factory bells ring. FWIW, I'll bet the relays in the bottom of Schlitzer's master clock case are marked "General Electric 24 volt DC-50."
Let me barge in here. The timer is used to limit the durration of the bell signal. The older International movements did not have durration contacts on the movement. A brief impulse to the timer winds a short mainspring letting the escapement determine the length of time that the school or factory bells ring. FWIW, I'll bet the relays in the bottom of Schlitzer's master clock case are marked "General Electric 24 volt DC-50."
Hello again. The bell relays are marked G21 12v DC. They are GE relays. I'm now convinced that this is 12 volts DC and not 24. I believe I've now got the movement wind circuit, program unit, and slave contacts hooked up correctly. The two-second make/break pulses the relay with the large carbon contacts. When this relay closes, it passes current for two seconds to wind the movement, advance the program unit and pulse the slaves. The switch marked Circuit 1 enables/disables the program unit and slave clock connections, but doesn't affect operation of the relay and wind of the movement. There is a simple manual brass inpulse switch below the circuit 1 switch that will pulse the program unit and slaves each time it is pushed. This seems to be the way to reset the clocks and program unit if it gets off its setting as it would with a power failure. The second set of make/break contacts in the movement pulse the primary circuit of the timer through contacts on the program unit. This winds the timer and allows the bell circuits to operate until it runs down in about 10 to 12 seconds. Then the bell relays open. The buttons at the bottom of the case operate the bell relays if the bells need to be operated at any time other than the times programmed. The timer is not involved with this. I'm now studying operation of the program unit, but haven't gotten very far with it yet. I have a 24v International slave clock that I got with this master, but I am not sure I can use it. I haven't studied its operation as yet, but it has 3 wires and I think my slaves would need 2 wires and 12v. Not sure!
Hello again. The bell relays are marked G21 12v DC. They are GE relays. I'm now convinced that this is 12 volts DC and not 24. I believe I've now got the movement wind circuit, program unit, and slave contacts hooked up correctly. The two-second make/break pulses the relay with the large carbon contacts. When this relay closes, it passes current for two seconds to wind the movement, advance the program unit and pulse the slaves. The switch marked Circuit 1 enables/disables the program unit and slave clock connections, but doesn't affect operation of the relay and wind of the movement. There is a simple manual brass inpulse switch below the circuit 1 switch that will pulse the program unit and slaves each time it is pushed. This seems to be the way to reset the clocks and program unit if it gets off its setting as it would with a power failure. The second set of make/break contacts in the movement pulse the primary circuit of the timer through contacts on the program unit. This winds the timer and allows the bell circuits to operate until it runs down in about 10 to 12 seconds. Then the bell relays open. The buttons at the bottom of the case operate the bell relays if the bells need to be operated at any time other than the times programmed. The timer is not involved with this. I'm now studying operation of the program unit, but haven't gotten very far with it yet. I have a 24v International slave clock that I got with this master, but I am not sure I can use it. I haven't studied its operation as yet, but it has 3 wires and I think my slaves would need 2 wires and 12v. Not sure!
LLoyd, you will need a second 24 volt power suppy to run 24 volt slaves. It can be done, with a 12 volt relay to activate the second power supply. The second movement to run the bell duration sounds like a bad engineering design, as it is usually done directly off the master movement. Your two switches controlling the impulse circuit are normal. Advance switch for power failures and daylight saving time, and an off switch for fall time change. Harold
Hi, I just saw this thread, and as it were, just repaired one of these about a month ago. Since nothing has been posted in 10 years, I am supposing it is working, but if not, let me know. Thanks
