I though I knew what this was but...

[John Cote]

I was offered this large split second chronograph which is in a beautiful if plain and very heavy 18k American case yesterday. When I saw it I thought it was a Meylan but after looking at Ethan's great Meylan DB I am not so sure. What the heck is this monster? The serial number on the movement is 66975. There is a fancily engraved dedication on the cuvette which dates to either 1891 or 1897. It is difficult to say but if I had to guess I would say 1891.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Nice watch, but it doesn't resemble any C.H. Meylan rattrapante of which I am aware, and its serial number is beyond the end of the normal serial number range for C.H. Meylan, but I am aware on one signed-Meylan with a higher serial number.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Surely Swiss.

 

[Incroyable]

How heavy is it?

 

[John Cote]

How heavy is it?

96dwt for the complete watch.

 

[John Cote]

OK, I see similarities to Eberhard.

I don't think so.

 

[John Cote]

How about Agassiz? The serial number fits better and there are some similar movements but without the snail regulator but I think I have seen them with the snail.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Would anyone consider Tiffany Factory Geneva?

 

[Incroyable]

What about Huguenin?

 

[John Cote]

What about Huguenin?

I see some similarities but I am not really thinking they "made" it.

 

[John Cote]

Would anyone consider Tiffany Factory Geneva?

So, I am going to answer your question in a sort of generic way; sort of as an answer to a lot of possible speculation... and this is my sort of my reasonably educated guess only. I have looked and looked at rattrapante movements from this approximate time period. There are a lot of brands which seem to have used an ebauche with the same style and basic mechanical function at the watch in the original post.

Yes, I can find a couple of Tiffany marked movements which look generically like it. As I said, I can find a lot of branded or attributed movements from the time period with the same basic layout from pinion locations, to lever and bridge shapes, to location of column wheel and on and on. It seems that someone/some maker was building the basic ebauche for a lot of people.

My impression of the "Tiffany Factory" was that anything very complicated they turned out started somewhere else??

This has always been my problem with Swiss watches. When I started collecting with my dad and in my early years on my own, this problem was enough of a frustration to keep me away from Swiss. Now it is becoming sort of an intriguing frustration.

I learned a long time ago from my old man that, just because someone calls an unmarked watch a Patek and shows you a marked Patek that looks pretty much the same, unmarked watches with lesser finishes are never Pateks...until somebody offers to buy it whips out Patek money...then it doesn't really matter to the seller anyway...it matters to the buyer and the seller just counts the money.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

How about Agassiz? The serial number fits better and there are some similar movements but without the snail regulator but I think I have seen them with the snail.

John, you nailed it, imo. I’ve noted some virtually identical Agassiz from a decade later, without the snail. And I’ve seen this snail on Agassiz at nearby serial numbers.

 

[John Cote]

John, you nailed it, imo. I’ve noted some virtually identical Agassiz from a decade later, without the snail. And I’ve seen this snail on Agassiz at nearby serial numbers.

Same here Moses. I agree...until someone comes up with a better theory.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Well said! Fwiw, if Agassiz, I’d put production of the movement in 1887 +/- 1yr

There’s also a “Patented 1877” stamp I’ve seen on Agassiz (et al) balance cocks with snail cam regulators. I’ve not located the patent in question, but seems on movements ~10 years later it’s gone. Maybe someone knows? Potential clue?

 

[John Cote]

Well said! Fwiw, if Agassiz, I’d put production of the movement in 1887 +/- 1yr

Just out of curiosity, how do you make that SN to be in the late 1880s? I put it perhaps 5-10 years later. Not saying I am right but here is an old thread from this board about Agassiz dating.

Agassiz Serial Numbers

I'd like to collect some serail numbers to date Agassiz Watches. Here is what I have found from on line sources 1884 19035 1885 19800 1900 111604 1903 119045 1915 98936 1920 226857 The first is from Wayne's site from an Agassiz Ad . It had a date and a picture of a movement with a serial...

mb.nawcc.org

 

[mosesgodfrey]

It’s a combo of import stamp requirements, case engravings, and original Agassiz reported production stats.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Just out of curiosity, how do you make that SN to be in the late 1880s?

John--I added a note to the thread you referenced. Hopefully useful!

 

[Telelucă Cristian]

Superb watch. Agassiz-Longines

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Well said! Fwiw, if Agassiz, I’d put production of the movement in 1887 +/- 1yr

There’s also a “Patented 1877” stamp I’ve seen on Agassiz (et al) balance cocks with snail cam regulators. I’ve not located the patent in question, but seems on movements ~10 years later it’s gone. Maybe someone knows? Potential clue?

I think the Patent is Wilmot's Patent. In at least one form it provides for the watch correction when laid flat with a hairspring curb. The snail is not involved in that action.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

That was what I thought, but that’s 1872. This is 1877? Closest I come for that year is a clock pendulum mechanism