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I need any E. Howard Gold N size case to re-case a recent find. Help?

TaPaVa76

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Unfortunately, there are many more Howard movements than cases out there. Most were solid gold and have been smelted.:(
Which is why I post , my Nice movement deserves a Better case !! If One remains intact I may find it here?
 

Clint Geller

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May we see the movement, TaPaVa? I fear the only way you will find a correct case for your movement is to evict another movement of the same model from its correct case.
 

TaPaVa76

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or a modified skeleton (display) case...
I have consulted 4 respected 'watch guys' 2 Makers and 2 Dealers , all responded as Clint did, One Maker said he has tried to modify cases to fit and did not like the results. One of the Makers will service the watch and make it 'look' better, I'm sure.
 

bruce linde

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I am a clock guy not a watch guy… but i like it the way it is… it has a presence I find cohesive, and attractive.

my vote would be: it ain’t broke… don’t ‘fix‘ it. :)
 

musicguy

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You are on a quest that many have been on. I am sure a case exists. If you have enough money and time you can find anything. Here's hoping.
I like this

Rob
 

Clint Geller

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You are on a quest that many have been on. I am sure a case exists. If you have enough money and time you can find anything. Here's hoping.
The problem is that any correct Howard case you are likely to find is overwhelmingly likely already to have a Howard movement in it. So even if you were to buy such a watch, you would still have one more Howard movement than correct cases to house them. Your best hope is to find a correct Howard case with a less well preserved Howard movement in it that you can evict without too many qualms.

Of course, the best plan, if you want a Howard movement in a correct case, is still to just buy one that way.
 
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John Cote

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The problem is that any correct Howard case you are likely to find is overwhelmingly likely already to have a Howard movement in it. So even if you were to buy such a watch, you would still have one more Howard movement than correct cases to house them. Your best hope is to find a correct Howard case with a less well preserved Howard movement in it that you can evict without too many qualms.

Of course, the best plan, if you want a Howard movement in a correct case, is still to just buy one that way.
I was just trying to be positive Clint. Everything is possible even if very, very, super very unlikely.
 

TaPaVa76

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I was just trying to be positive Clint. Everything is possible even if very, very, super very unlikely.
I read you both load and clear:cool:and just missed a Nice N as I bid 3 $ low w/ 3 seconds left.....story of my Life ...day late an $ short... while overseas in Sept I missed a Beautiful Moorhouse Dial in a Howard case/ Movement in the last few seconds that went for $411.99...should have bid $800 as it had the Moorhouse Scroll Marks at 3,6.9.12....:mad:....I will ask you both to comment on my failure to GO LARGE on this one !! REAL ?? Moorhouse dial.jpg
 
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TaPaVa76

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I read you both load and clear:cool:and just missed a Nice N as I bid 3 $ low w/ 3 seconds left.....story of my Life ...day late an $ short... while overseas in Sept I missed a Beautiful Moorhouse Dial in a Howard case/ Movement in the last few seconds that went for $411.99...should have bid $800 as it had the Moorhouse Scroll Marks at 3,6.9.12....:mad:....I will ask you both to comment on my failure to GO LARGE on this one !! REAL ?? View attachment 680139
 

Clint Geller

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I read you both load and clear:cool:and just missed a Nice N as I bid 3 $ low w/ 3 seconds left.....story of my Life ...day late an $ short... while overseas in Sept I missed a Beautiful Moorhouse Dial in a Howard case/ Movement in the last few seconds that went for $411.99...should have bid $800 as it had the Moorhouse Scroll Marks at 3,6.9.12....:mad:....I will ask you both to comment on my failure to GO LARGE on this one !! REAL ?? View attachment 680139
TaPaVa, I agree that is a nice looking watch and the dial does look like a Moorhouse product. Did the seller actually show a picture of the Moorhouse signature on the back? Not all of Moorhouse's work is signed. Given the sale price, I am assuming the watch has a gold filled case, correct? Are you certain it is a correct "Howard" case, with no empty lever slot under the bezel, no set screw in the pendant, no extraneous case screw marks, and no gap between the edge of the movement and the case lip? Does it have a maker's mark? I might also mention by way of consolation to you that while gold filled cases may have been the standard in the 1880's railroad watch market, every serious Howard collector I know wants to buy Howard watches from that period in solid gold cases, and preferably 18K rather than 14K. Remember that Howard watches were primarily luxury market items, not workingman's watches, though a surprising number of them were used on the railroads when fifteen jewel watches were common there. So if you are going to collect early Howards, be aware that gold filled cases, even correct ones, usually don't add that much value or collector appeal to a Howard watch.

In auctions, unsuccessful bidders often have a tendency to beat themselves up needlessly because they "just missed" winning an auction "by $3," and so fourth. But you need to remember that you actually have no idea how high the winning bidder would have gone if you had pushed him. So try not to feel bad about that. I recently bid a watch, not a Howard, up over $10,000 and failed to bring it home. I felt only slightly more disappointment than relief, so I knew my maximum bid was right for me. I know there will be plenty of other great watches to spend my money on. And if you never lose in an auction, it probably means you are reaching too high.
 
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TaPaVa76

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TaPaVa, I agree that is a nice looking watch and the dial does look like a Moorhouse product. Did the seller actually show a picture of the Moorhouse signature on the back? Not all of Moorhouse's work is signed. Given the sale price, I am assuming the watch has a gold filled case, correct? Are you certain it is a correct "Howard" case, with no empty lever slot under the bezel, no set screw in the pendant, no extraneous case screw marks, and no gap between the edge of the movement and the case lip? Does it have a maker's mark? I might also mention by way of consolation to you that while gold filled cases may have been the standard in the 1880's railroad watch market, every serious Howard collector I know wants to buy Howard watches from that period in solid gold cases, and preferably 18K rather than 14K. Remember that Howard watches were primarily luxury market items, not workingman's watches, though a surprising number of them were used on the railroads when fifteen jewel watches were common there. So if you are going to collect early Howards, be aware that gold filled cases, even correct ones, usually don't add that much value or collector appeal to a Howard watch.

In auctions, unsuccessful bidders often have a tendency to beat themselves up needlessly because they "just missed" winning an auction "by $3," and so fourth. But you need to remember that you actually have no idea how high the winning bidder would have gone if you had pushed him. So try not to feel bad about that. I recently bid a watch, not a Howard, up over $10,000 and failed to bring it home. I felt only slightly more disappointment than relief, so I knew my bid was right for me. I know there will be plenty of other great watches to spend my money on. And if you never lose in an auction, it probably means you are reaching too high.
Clint , Thank You for your comments , it was gold filled , I looked more at the Dial than the case and questioned the ? Mulberry marks and thought they looked a bit to uniform in that each had 4 dots, centered, and single straight lines coming away from the dots rather than a 'branch' and I wanted the Dial even if it was just a Moorhouse Style as I like that style numerals, of which I have many, but none as nice as a Moorhouse. Of my 20+ Howards only 2 are solid gold and are 14K and I am of the opinion that there are very few Solid Gold Howards as they occupy a small number of total watch production,? 90K total, of which less than 5% are solid gold ?? !! in regards to Total Watch production, maybe higher for Howards, as they had the High End niche.
 

Ethan Lipsig

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TaPaVa76, I think a far higher percentage of Howards were originally cased in solid gold cases than the 5%+ you estimate were cased that way, but Clint likely could provide more definitive information. My small five-watch Howard collection may not be representative, but all are in their original solid gold cases: My Series IV N-size is in an 18k Wheeler Parson hunter case. My G-size is in an 18k E.H. & Co. hunter case. My L-size is in a 14k W.P. & H hunter case. My Series XII split-plate is in a 14k E.H. & Co. OF case. My Series VII is in a 14k E.H. & Co. hunter case.
 

Clint Geller

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TaPaVa, I would venture to say that of the several hundred correct Howard cases I have seen over the years, perhaps only a few dozen were gold filled. (I have also seen exactly one nickel Howard watch case, on a nickel G Size ladies watch. That case had a setting lever slot that only a Howard G Size movement would fit. The movement in that watch had a signed Moorhouse hunting-to-open face conversion dial on it with no seconds bit.) For one thing, gold filled cases were pretty scarce altogether before about 1875, and by then 35% or so of EH&Co's total output had already been produced. In the later models or series, I know Columbia and B&B (Bates & Bacon?) both made some N Size gold filled cases for Howard watches. While they may exist, I don't at this moment recall ever seeing any gold filled case with an "EH&Co" marking, which suggests to me that the Howard sales offices did not sell gold filled watches. However, I do know of a Ball Howard in a gold-filled case with a presentation from Webb C. Ball (the cheap b@$t@%d :)) to one of his employees on the cuvette. Also I have seen that very few Howard cases have screwed backs and bezels, the style most commonly associated with railroad watches. Again, that is because by the 1880s, the vast majority of Howard watch cases were solid gold, and solid gold cases with screwed backs and bezels are quite uncommon. I can recall seeing exactly one solid gold SB&B case, and it was for a Howard.
 
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TaPaVa76

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TaPaVa, I would venture to say that of the several hundred correct Howard cases I have seen over the years, perhaps only a few dozen were gold filled. (I have also seen exactly one nickel Howard watch case, on a nickel G Size ladies watch. That case had a setting lever slot that only a Howard G Size movement would fit.) For one thing, gold filled cases were pretty scarce altogether before about 1875, and by then 35% or so of EH&Co's total output had already been produced. In the later models or series, I know Columbia and B&B (Bates & Bacon?) both made some N Size gold filled cases for Howard watches. While they may exist, I don't at this moment recall ever seeing any gold filled cases with an "EH&Co" marking. However, I do know of a Ball Howard in a gold-filled case with a presentation from Webb C. Ball (the cheap b@$t@%d :)) to one of his employees on the cuvette. Also consider that very few Howard cases had screwed backs and bezels, the style most commonly associated with railroad watches. Again, that is because by the 1880s, the vast majority of Howard watch cases were solid gold, and solid gold cases with screwed backs and bezels are quite uncommon.
I Stand corrected , and I now buy only E.Howards pre 1900 but most solid gold are out of my league $$$$, if I look at Keystones they must have E.Howard around the outer edge of the inner case ? pre 1910?? and most of mine are Keystones, my 2 14K are pre 1900..
 
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Clint Geller

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I Stand corrected , and I now buy only E.Howards pre 1900 but most solid gold are out of my league $$$$, if I look at Keystones they must have E.Howard around the outer edge of the inner case ? pre 1910?? and most of mine are Keystones, my 2 14K are pre 1900..
Keystone Howards are indeed a different animal, TaPaVa. I've seen quite a few of those in solid gold cases too, but gold filled cases are much more common for Keystone Howards.
 

TaPaVa76

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I have found my 18 N case but needs work, severe brassing rear case , can it be refinished?? How and Where?? As it is a GOOD Movement ( Deer) I will probably have it overhauled completely and not recase the prior purchase...I get a staff w/ the purchase also !! I hope my Maker is as eager as I am ...
18 n 1.jpg 18 n 2.jpg 18 n 3.jpg
 

Clint Geller

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That's an interesting movement, TaPaVa. It has a double sunk dial, which while standard on 17 jewel split plate movements, they turn up only occasionally on Howard 3/4 plate movements. Furthermore, the damaskeening style of your movement usually is seen on the very scarce B of LE (Brotherhood of Locomostive Engineers) Ball Howard production, which was roughly contemporaneous with your movement, but it is seldom seen elsewhere. You will need to find a new set of hands for your Grade 7 movement, which clearly also needs some TLC.
 

TaPaVa76

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That's an interesting movement, TaPaVa. It has a double sunk dial, which while standard on 17 jewel split plate movements, they turn up only occasionally on Howard 3/4 plate movements. Furthermore, the damaskeening style of your movement usually is seen on the very scarce B of LE (Brotherhood of Locomostive Engineers) Ball Howard production, which was roughly contemporaneous with your movement, but it is seldom seen elsewhere. You will need to find a new set of hands for your Grade 7 movement, which clearly also needs some TLC.
Clint , as I prepare to take the E. Howard to my watcher maker I have asked him about re finishing the screw back case which he says he now longer does plating. Would you know of someone who would re finish/ plate the brassing on the rear screw back case and offer your comments / recommendations on attempting that repair. The watchmaker states you can never match up the color variation !! I worry that 3.5 microns of 14K may interfere with the screw back ability to close properly?? Your thoughts , please. To
 

pmurphy

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I just happened to read somewhere here on the forums (can't remember exactly where right off hand) that re-plating a case makes them look like cheap Chinese junk. I don't think I would risk that.

Weird but I got an Illinois watch in the mail today with the case back worn just like yours. I'm planning on leaving mine alone but I'm just a newbie collector.
 

TaPaVa76

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I just happened to read somewhere here on the forums (can't remember exactly where right off hand) that re-plating a case makes them look like cheap Chinese junk. I don't think I would risk that.

Weird but I got an Illinois watch in the mail today with the case back worn just like yours. I'm planning on leaving mine alone but I'm just a newbie collector.
I am Also, my watchmaker says it is hard to match the color, he has quit plating but I can send it to a plating shop that does watches all the time / but they tell you that also, I just want it to look uniform rather that worn areas
 

Clint Geller

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TaPaVa, I have little to add to what has been said. But I frankly have little experience trying to restore gold filled cases. You have a very nice movement. That case is never going to look great and Howard movements belong in gold cases, anyway.
 

TaPaVa76

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TaPaVa, I have little to add to what has been said. But I frankly have little experience trying to restore gold filled cases. You have a very nice movement. That case is never going to look great and Howard movements belong in gold cases, anyway.
Clint, I will continue to look for a real gold case but in the mean time, I thought I could make it look a bit better ...Tom
 

TaPaVa76

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Understood, and good luck. Your goal is outside of my experience range to try and advise you.
Thanks for being there, I may drive the 8 hrs to there plant to observe the work
 

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