I have face problems

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by ClockCollector, Mar 12, 2017.

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  1. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    #1 ClockCollector, Mar 12, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
    Hello,

    I have a Junghans beehive westminster clock that works splendidly until I mount the face - where then it always stops at ~6 minutes before the hour chime. The minute hand moves fine when manually pushed - and the problem dissapears when the face is removed. I suspect that something is catching on the back of the face when the chime goes into warn, but it wouldn't make sense that it always stops before the hour, not during the quarters. The hour strike train is engaged by the chime train, not the time train - so that rules out an issue with strike warning.

    I honestly have no idea what magic this is. I'll post pictures later.

    I have face problems.
     
  2. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Have you tried it with dial on but hands removed? Also you are 110% positive the hands aren't touching anything? Check where they mount to the hour cannon to make sure they aren't rubbing the hole in the dial
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    It would really help to see pictures of this clock. In some of these the movement sits on a seat board held by two thumb nuts under the board. My first thought is perhaps the movement is mounted too far forward. I like Jason's suggestion, try it with the face on and hands off.

    RC
     
  4. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Hi,

    The movement does sit on a seatboard but it is also secured in place by two iron arms that connect in a triangular formation to the top of the case, similar to the wall clock movements that Junghans made. I'm currently running it with the face on without the hands, so we will see how that goes.

    CC
     
  5. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Another thing you could do (if it's even possible is to remove the dial and movement from the case and then mount the dial to the movement and run it. That way you have clear view from all angles without the case blocking you
     
  6. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    In my workshop, I have several types of mounting points so that for various types of clocks they can be mounted in a place where I can comfortably view the working movement from all sides. I mount all clocks this way for testing before putting back in case. Mostly made up myself by copying the baseboard as in the OP's clock and mounting it on a moveable rack.
    This one, I purchased from a supplier.

    [​IMG]
     

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  7. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Hello everyone,

    It appears that one of the baseboard screws is missing and the hole seems to be pretty messed up (not the screw that mounts the movement to the baseboard, but the one that holds the baseboard in place to the case). If you remove both screws, the baseboard slides out with the movement for easier maintenance and access. Rough, I like your design for holding the movements - easily customizable for whatever movement you're working on.

    Apparently the movement shifts (probably due to vibrations from the trains and the chimes) slightly to the left and then the hour cannon rubs against the hole for the hands, which then stops the clock.

    What would be a good fix for the hole?
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    If you are speaking of the hole in the wood into which the screw is threaded, a quick fix if it isn't too bad is to drizzle a little thin CA glue (Super Glue) into the hole and allow it to soak into the wood and dry completely. (don't try to fill the hole, just soak the sides of the hole). If that does not work, I suggest drilling out the hole and gluing in a wooden plug and drill a new hole.

    RC
     
  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The stopping clock. If it doesn't change location when you move the hands
    manually it has to be either the chime warning or something else at the front
    of the clock, like the motion works.
    Also look at screw length. Some times the mounting screw goes through the
    case and messes with the works.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I have good results mixing sawdust with wood glue and packing the hole. After it dries you can drill a new hole.
     
  11. Jasons34

    Jasons34 Registered User

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    Yes shutterbug considering that's what mdf (medium density fiberboard) is made from. You can also use toothpicks and a wood golf tee (if the hole is big enough)
     
  12. DN4911

    DN4911 Registered User
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    Roughbark could you posts a picture of the comlete mounting rack? It looks cool and I would like to make one like it. Not sure if it just clamps into a vise or what is at the bottom out of the picture. Thanks.
     
  13. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I'll take a photo later when I get on to work. It is basically like a set of dividers. A single pivot point with a wing nut or any nut so that the arms can move independently and be tightened with one nut. The metal plates on the end are curved to accept the bottom pillars of clocks. It works particularly well with American clocks. It is mounted on a wooden block and a wider flat base.
     
  14. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Well, I've encountered a new problem (I succesfully made a new
    hole for the seatboard screw, thank you all for the suggestions).
    When I mount the face (without even using the nails to securely
    mount it to the face), the clock slowly loses power in the time train
    and then stops. I tested this out by taking the pendulum bob off
    and allowing for the train to run fast. After mounting the face, it takes around 7 seconds before the time train stops and refuses to advance further (the tick-tock decreases in volume until it finally stops). If I take the face off, the clock happily ticks away loudly. It doesn't matter where the hands are set. The chime train warn has no effect on this problem whatsoever, either.

    Looking into the hole that the hour cannon comes out of shows that it is free to move and is not rubbing against the face. No other cams on the front of the movement come too close to the back of the face, and those are just for the chime and strike trains. I think I just have bad luck with Junghans (my other Junghans has a premature strike issue that won't go away even though I've tried almost everything besides modifying the movement).

    CC
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It sounds like something dragging. You can remove the tension on the train
    and wiggle wheels with your finger. One is likely the problem.
    It might be that the weight or the plate is being twisted.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    So the front plate of the movement may be shifting? Wouldn't a wheel that is not functioning properly stop the train regardless of whether or not the face is installed? What type of weight? Sorry, I'm a little confused :)
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The weight of the movement attached at to the front can be enough.
    If the feet are not straight, it can distort the plates.
    Things like a bent pivot or an out of line bushing or insufficient end
    play. Put it in the condition that it doesn't run and do what I told
    you. Carefully test every wheel.
    I assume you've already looked at all possible places that it can
    drag on a moving part so there isn't much else. Clocks are not
    magical. They either get enough energy to the escapement or don't.
    When they don't it is something that is robbing it.
    Since we don't have the clock or even see the clock, all we can do
    is tell you to be eyes and ears.
    We can't do much more.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    All right, will do. Here's some pictures I took of the movement while it is in the case as well as one with the face installed. I'll get back to you with what I find out.
     

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  19. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    The image where the hole in the centre is not centred with the hand shafts that should be in the centre, is enough to stop the clock. The hands will bind on the dial and if the dial has been put on tight, it cannot be pushed out of the way. Hence the clock rapidly stops.
     
  20. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    This one sits on the bench or any shelf. I could bolt it down but there is no real need. The weight of the clock keeps it there.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This one takes mantel clock movements etc.
    [​IMG]

    And with a couple of different bits of wood with holes cut in them for the chains or cables I can do everything from wall clocks to grandfather clocks on this.

    [​IMG]

    Cuckoo clocks, I screw to the edge of a shelf.
     

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  21. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    This would seem to suggest that the problem has to be related in some way to the face or how it is mounted. It might help if we could see some pictures of how the face is attached to the movement. I think Tinker is on the right track - something may be twisting or distorting the movement when the face is attached. Does the face slip into place easily? Is it possible that the face is attached to the case and when the screws that attach the movement are tightened that there is a strain between the movement and the face? You might try loosening all the mounting screws and see if it runs OK.

    RC
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I'm seeing what roughbarked mentioned. The hour cannon seems to be in contact with the edge of the dial hole, and that will produce enough friction to eventually stop the clock.
     
  23. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Hey guys,

    I just found out something interesting. There are two layers to the face (there's a metal sheet behind the outer face. It looks like someone pressed that sheet so it bent inwards slightly and was pressed against the face. I got a tool and popped it back to where it was supposed to be and am currently testing the clock with the face on. It is running well so far, so perhaps that was the problem. The camera angle made the arbor look like it was touching the outer face, but the inner piece of it was rubbing against the hour cannon.

    I'll keep you all posted.
     
  24. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Well, the clock has been running and working fine. However, the clock runs too slow! Even after adjusting the pendulum bob to the highest position, it runs too slow. The suspension spring is in good condition and the pendulum has a wide motion of movement so it's getting enough power. Otherwise, everything else is working fine. Any ideas on this?
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    Can we see a picture of the back of the movement with the pendulum and weight attached?

    Generally, when a clock is running with a healthy swing and is running slow one usually first suspects that the pendulum bob, the leader, and/or the suspension spring may have been replaced with incorrect parts. Some clear pictures of what you have now will help determine a solution. To make the clock run faster the total length of suspension and pendulum assemble will need to be reduced, the amount depending on how slow the clock is running.

    Is the time loss consistent? When setting the clock does it seen that the minute hand can be moved with very little pressure? There is always the possibility that the clock is running at the correct rate but something is slipping with the clutch that allows the hands to be set.

    RC
     
  26. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    I'll get to taking the photos - I'm currently away.

    The time loss is consistent, and the minute hand moves very readily when setting it - very little resistance. How would Iadjust the clutch?

    I'll take the photos as soon as I arrive back.
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    Depends on the design of the clock. In some cases just tightening the minute hand (pressing in the retaining pin and/or an extra washer). Sometimes the clutch parts are between the plates. Pictures of the center shaft might help.

    RC
     
  28. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I'll bet that's your problem. Yes, pic's of the center shaft please.
     
  29. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Well, I just made some new spacers for the minute hand arbor, and then made a taper pin with a small head (for easy removal) on my metal lathe. The minute hand is snug now with a little bit of resistance when you move it, which is much better than before where it almost fell due to gravity. I'll get back to you all when I see how it keeps time with the pendulum bob attached. Here's a link to a video of it working (without the bob). I did some closeups of the two parts I made for the minute hand arbor.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVatWFMkCWU

    Thanks!
     
  30. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    It sounds like it needs to have the chime wound up, as it is barely running. Also looks like you may need to adjust the hand bushing a small amount as the chime seems to trip after the 15 minute marks by a couple of minutes, but it may just be how you are moving the hand.
     
  31. ClockCollector

    ClockCollector Registered User

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    Well, it looks like it's keeping good time now and everything is functioning as it should. Harold, I adjusted the bushing so that it lines up now precisely on the quarters.

    Thanks everyone.
     
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